Ascorbate And The Copper Hand-Off

[tara]

Why do you choose the ascorbates over AA?

Hunch, intuition, taste. I sometimes find it harder to drink the sour ascorbic acid. And in the past I've had a tendency to run a bit on the acidic side, according to UpH measurements, although I haven't tested recently. I figure I can use the little Mg and Ca too. And in years past when I thought lots of vit C would be a good idea, and ate highish dose vit C tablets, I'm not sure they always had good effects on me.

But any time I feel a taste or craving for it, I have some ascorbic acid too. I'm not all that consistent about that part. But I am being quite consistent about 1/16 tsp Mg ascorbate and 1/16 tsp Ca ascorbate in the morning ATM (this is a fairly recent habit).

 

[Kray]

Hunch, intuition, taste. I sometimes find it harder to drink the sour ascorbic acid. And in the past I've had a tendency to run a bit on the acidic side, according to UpH measurements, although I haven't tested recently. I figure I can use the little Mg and Ca too. And in years past when I thought lots of vit C would be a good idea, and ate highish dose vit C tablets, I'm not sure they always had good effects on me.

But any time I feel a taste or craving for it, I have some ascorbic acid too. I'm not all that consistent about that part. But I am being quite consistent about 1/16 tsp Mg ascorbate and 1/16 tsp Ca ascorbate in the morning ATM (this is a fairly recent habit).

Thanks for sharing. Not a bad idea to mix things up, esp first thing in the morning on an empty stomach with ascorbates vs. AA. I might be mistaken but I have avoided ascorbates because I'd worry my stomach would not be acidic enough at mealtime. I've also understood that most people are under-acidic (for purposes of good digestion) rather than over-acidic. Not sure if this applies to buffered vitamin C or not. So, I've leaned toward plain AA. Also read that AA isn't too acidic as far as acids go.

 

[tara]

I might be mistaken but I have avoided ascorbates because I'd worry my stomach would not be acidic enough at mealtime. I've also understood that most people are under-acidic (for purposes of good digestion) rather than over-acidic.

I suspect low stomach acid may sometimes happen even when other parts of the system are short on alkaline minerals.
Speculating, might be a case for using the acid if you are having it with meals, but not such an issue away from meals?
I'd guess that the acidity of ascorbic acid would only really be a problem if in larger quantities when someone is already overall struggling with too much acid/not enough alkaline minerals? Which probably happens sometimes, given that acidosis is a thing.

 

[Kray]

There appears to be a lot of ignorance surrounding vitamin C in the Ray Peat community. I wanted to talk about my experience with it and discuss one aspect of its metabolism. First, let's talk about why this ignorance exists. It exists because of fear. This quote of Ray Peat is found in several places on the forum here:



So many people have benefited tremendously from vitamin C therapy that the scare-mongering from Ray Peat and Morley Robbins should be taken with a grain of salt. (Ascorbate salts, of course!)

Yes, this is scare-mongering. Look at the language used and the conclusion. Ray Peat clearly has his fingers up in front of his face in the form of an X. It's actually quite disappointing to see this from someone who is typically very measured in his statements and who typically admonishes the authorities for ignoring context. Oh well. We all have our blind spots and Ray Peat is no exception. He has taught us so much before that this is no reason to ignore him in the future.

Let's move on to Morley Robbins. I'm sure a handful of people here have read or heard about Morley Robbins. Perhaps they know that he is supremely against the "iron madness", that he is a huge proponent of magnesium supplementation, and that he advises against vitamin D and ascorbate supplementation. His protocols include great respect for liver and the retinol it contains, as well as an "Adrenal Cocktail" that includes OJ and cream of tartare, with no explicit disrespect for carbohydrates. So one could consider him to sit fairly close to Peat in the spectrum of health gurus. I have learned a lot from his focus on the metabolism of fat soluble vitamins and minerals.

Morley's primary contention against ascorbate supplementation is that it dysregulates copper metabolism. He believes that you should only consume the Whole Food vitamin C Complex (WFC) or else you will create a copper deficiency[1]. He cites a review that discusses several studies showing lowered copper absorption due to ascorbate supplementation.

Just a week ago, I was reading this entry of his in an effort to understand why I should be afraid of ascorbate. You see, I had come to realize that when I was supplementing with 4-5 grams of ascorbate salts a couple months ago, I was much happier. I was in much better spirits and much less irritable. Discovering more about this connection is very important to me, because this was a very significant quality of life improvement and I recently quit a good paying job in order to try a new career. So if ascorbate can lessen the anxiety of self-doubt, I am all for it.

Most of the studies in the review came to the conclusion that ascorbate lowers copper absorption. However, when the review starts to discuss copper metabolism, particularly in humans, the conclusions are less definitive. Also, the review states this:

My eyebrow shot up at that, and I began to wonder if the case against ascorbate was not so rock solid.

In looking at Morley's piece, I didn't really find any suitable threads to explore. The tone of the review (written in 1998) made it quite clear that the understanding of the interactions between ascorbate and copper metabolism were still nascent and remained nebulous. Many of the studies that the review and Morley discuss are from the 1970's and 1980's. The absorption business about simultaneous ingestion of copper and ascorbate was quite settled, but there was a lot of postulating and suggesting when it came to enzyme activity. Which meant that the study findings didn't quite line up with anyone's hypothesis.

I looked for some literature on anxiety and depression and vitamin C. There are a few studies on the anxiolytic effect of vitamin C. There are also some about depression. Most say good things about vitamin C.

But then I realized something: what if the reason why ascorbate lowers anxiety and depression is because ascorbate depletes copper? In this case, Morley's still correct about copper depletion -- but it's actually a good thing for people with anxiety or depression.

One of my driving forces when I do nutrition research is the desire to reconcile seemingly contradictory theories or evidence by discovering a new context. And here was a potential example of that. If people are suffering from depression or anxiety due to an excess of copper, taking ascorbate is probably a good idea to clear that copper out. It might be contra-indicated long-term, but at least you have a new tool to use when managing your own health.

Then I searched for correlations between copper levels and depression. It wasn't hard to find studies showing that.

Morley Robbins makes a big deal out of ceruloplasmin and how important that is for copper metabolism. One of the things I've learned from him is how pivotal proteins (and enzymes) are when trying to understand the metabolism of something. If your body is not producing enough transport proteins, or interfering with them in some other way, that might be why you have a deficiency or excess of something (usually a metal like copper or iron). And looking at transport proteins also explains why you could have both an excess and a deficiency at the same time: you have lots, it's just not in the right place! Metalo-proteins are very interesting; I suggest studying them at some point (metallothionein is another one).

The next thing I looked at was if ascorbate had any effects on ceruloplasmin. This led me to a couple of papers by Edward D. Harris and Susan S. Percival.[2][3] Their studies showed that ascorbate enhanced the release of copper ions from ceruloplasmin into cells by reducing the copper ions. In a separate review[4], Harris makes this abundantly clear:

This is the key to understanding ascorbate's role in copper metabolism.
In all of the papers I just cited, the authors hypothesize that copper deficiency and scurvy are largely the same disease because they share incredibly similar symptom profiles. This makes sense in light of ascorbate's role, which is perfectly elucidated by one of the paper titles: Ascorbate Enhances Copper Transport from Ceruloplasmin into Human Cells! Ascorbate is helping ceruloplasmin in the final hand-off to the cells, so that copper can complete its job as a co-factor in a multitude of enzymatic processes.

You know how vitamin C is important for collagen cross-linking? Guess what, so is copper.
You know how vitamin C improves the endothelium/vasculature? Guess what, so does copper.

This also provides a way to understand some of the effects that vitamin C is purported to have -- primarily via Copper Zinc Oxide Dismutase (CuZnSOD). Anything from immune system improvements to diabetes.

I posit that ascorbate (when taken appropriately) will actually improve anemia. Copper supplementation has been shown to solve anemia in some cases.

I have a second part planned where I will look into another dynamic between copper and ascorbate, with a brief bit about iron. But since most people will want a recommendation after reading this, I will leave one here.

Unfortunately, we do not have very much data about the most optimal time to take ascorbate. There is just the one study looking at 75 minutes pre-food and 75 minutes post-food. Most studies have not looked at the timing of events and this is why the understanding of the copper hand-off has gone under the radar. As you can see, it actually flips Morley's hypothesis on its head! Ascorbate improves copper metabolism, regardless of whether it comes from food!

Recommendation:
The ascorbate dose 75 minutes post-food is where the increased enzyme activity took place. So perhaps an hour after a meal, when copper is freshly circulating, but before it heads to the liver for storage?


[1] Ascorbic Acid Causes Copper Deficiency?… Huh?!?…
[2] Ascorbate Enhances Copper Transport from Ceruloplasmin into Human K562 Cells
[3] A role for ascorbic acid in copper transport
[4] Copper Transport: An Overview

@zmkd
Would you clarify if this pertains not only to ascorbates, but to ascorbic acid as well?

 

[Kray]

I suspect low stomach acid may sometimes happen even when other parts of the system are short on alkaline minerals.
Speculating, might be a case for using the acid if you are having it with meals, but not such an issue away from meals?
I'd guess that the acidity of ascorbic acid would only really be a problem if in larger quantities when someone is already overall struggling with too much acid/not enough alkaline minerals? Which probably happens sometimes, given that acidosis is a thing.

If acidity is a real issue, I guess it wouldn't hurt to take with meals. The only problem is iron uptake, so you don't want to take any form of vitamin C supplement with a high iron meal, such as red meat or oysters. I think it might be better utilized as well when taken on an empty stomach. But again, I believe unless you are known to have a sensitive stomach or take a huge dose, taking AA on an empty stomach is not an issue. It hasn't seemed to be for me.

 

[tara]

But again, I believe unless you are known to have a sensitive stomach or take a huge dose, taking AA on an empty stomach is not an issue. It hasn't seemed to be for me.

I agree. I'm not aiming to talk you out of it. :) Acidosis is an issue for a few people, alkalosis for a few others, but for the majority there's probably enough balance to handle normal amounts just fine.
I'm thinking more of those who might eat several grams of ascorbic acid/day for months or years with little in the way of balancing alkaline nutrition while already verging on acidosis.

 

[Kray]

@Kray which company did you talk with that makes the low-lead ascorbic acid?

@yerrag

Here is the latest response from the company of the brand I use, that uses Quali-C ascorbic acid.

"We normally do not give out this information, but received approval from our Quality department to share this information just once. At least 99% pure material is used. Routinely tested by the 3rd party lab, the individual content of Arsenic, Cadmium and Mercury is less than 0.01ppm, Lead is less than 0.1ppm."

 

[InChristAlone]

@yerrag

Here is the latest response from the company of the brand I use, that uses Quali-C ascorbic acid.

"We normally do not give out this information, but received approval from our Quality department to share this information just once. At least 99% pure material is used. Routinely tested by the 3rd party lab, the individual content of Arsenic, Cadmium and Mercury is less than 0.01ppm, Lead is less than 0.1ppm."

Haha they don't give out that information??? Then why should people be paying so much more for their product in the hopes that since it's not made in China it's higher quality?

 

[Steven Bussinger]

@zmkd
Would you clarify if this pertains not only to ascorbates, but to ascorbic acid as well?

Yes, it should apply to both. I'm not a chemist, so I don't know how to double check something like that, but they are both not "Whole Food C", so the WFC people do not like them. Deconstructing the WFC position was the main thrust of my argument. If you dig enough, you can eventually find someone actually explaining why WFC is supposed to be better. They're these P and J and K factors in WFC, and AA is just one part of the whole. And of course, few people know what those other parts are made of or what role they serve. There's supposedly a paper explaining this that someone did for a graduate thesis decades ago and it's not available anywhere. So it's basically occultism/cultism.

I remember reading that one of the factors has 4 molecules of copper, so it seemed like a safe way of getting copper -- since Morley's contention was that AA either depletes copper or dysregulates copper metabolism. Since that was the only real argument I could contend with (the rest of it being Boomer Internet Health Marketing speak), the interactions between copper and AA became my focus. That, and I wanted to understand why taking ascorbate helped with anxiety, which I initially presumed to possibly be copper excess.

According to the research I did, both AA and ascorbate are perfectly fine to take 75 minutes after a meal, so as not to interfere with copper absorption. In an animal that produces their own vitamin C, AA would never be present in the stomach, and so it would never cause copper to not be absorbed. Since we can't make our own vitamin C, we have to take it orally. The 75 minutes is arbitrary, since it's from the study. It's possible that only 30 minutes are needed to wait, but we don't have any studies saying so.

Here is a WFC proponent: Ascorbic Acid Is Not Vitamin C - Whole Food Vitamins: ⋆ The Doctor Within

I forgot about Royal Lee's book (Royal is a great name). I guess I should read it, but even if his arguments are correct, one can't ignore that people are simply not being harmed by taking AA, unless they have an allergic reaction to it. In fact, many people benefit strongly from AA when taking many grams of it daily. If the WFC people can claim an illness is caused by AA, then we can get somewhere. That would give them a falsifiable hypothesis, like the copper deficiency one. As it stands, there is no falsifiable hypothesis, therefore their position is unscientific.

 

[Kray]

Yes, it should apply to both. I'm not a chemist, so I don't know how to double check something like that, but they are both not "Whole Food C", so the WFC people do not like them. Deconstructing the WFC position was the main thrust of my argument. If you dig enough, you can eventually find someone actually explaining why WFC is supposed to be better. They're these P and J and K factors in WFC, and AA is just one part of the whole. And of course, few people know what those other parts are made of or what role they serve. There's supposedly a paper explaining this that someone did for a graduate thesis decades ago and it's not available anywhere. So it's basically occultism/cultism.

I remember reading that one of the factors has 4 molecules of copper, so it seemed like a safe way of getting copper -- since Morley's contention was that AA either depletes copper or dysregulates copper metabolism. Since that was the only real argument I could contend with (the rest of it being Boomer Internet Health Marketing speak), the interactions between copper and AA became my focus. That, and I wanted to understand why taking ascorbate helped with anxiety, which I initially presumed to possibly be copper excess.

According to the research I did, both AA and ascorbate are perfectly fine to take 75 minutes after a meal, so as not to interfere with copper absorption. In an animal that produces their own vitamin C, AA would never be present in the stomach, and so it would never cause copper to not be absorbed. Since we can't make our own vitamin C, we have to take it orally. The 75 minutes is arbitrary, since it's from the study. It's possible that only 30 minutes are needed to wait, but we don't have any studies saying so.

Here is a WFC proponent: Ascorbic Acid Is Not Vitamin C - Whole Food Vitamins: ⋆ The Doctor Within

I forgot about Royal Lee's book (Royal is a great name). I guess I should read it, but even if his arguments are correct, one can't ignore that people are simply not being harmed by taking AA, unless they have an allergic reaction to it. In fact, many people benefit strongly from AA when taking many grams of it daily. If the WFC people can claim an illness is caused by AA, then we can get somewhere. That would give them a falsifiable hypothesis, like the copper deficiency one. As it stands, there is no falsifiable hypothesis, therefore their position is unscientific.

Thanks so much for your response and clarifications. I was never aware about C/copper relationship, so this is very helpful! I was focused on taking C away from iron-heavy meals, but copper is so important! I guess the waiting period would apply to both sides of a meal-- 30-75 minutes before and after a meal, to be safe? How much C do you take a day, and how do you space your intake?

The C debate is a longstanding one, and in today's political climate, who can get straight answers? I can see why Peat is so anti-establishment in his area of expertise because there is so much bias for all the wrong reasons, and we, like stepchildren, get the brunt of the blow. Who can trust doctors anymore, since they are fed the same stuff we are?

Thanks for your looking into this very important issue. Hopefully more valuable information will come from it, as it is shared with others.

 

[Steven Bussinger]

I take 4-5 grams a day. I used to take it in the morning with OJ, until I did this research. Now I find it easiest to just take it at night before I go to bed (with 2 grams baking soda) because of that 75 minute waiting period.

 

[Kray]

I take 4-5 grams a day. I used to take it in the morning with OJ, until I did this research. Now I find it easiest to just take it at night before I go to bed (with 2 grams baking soda) because of that 75 minute waiting period.

Why do you take ascorbate form rather than straight C-- because of the time of day you're taking it and acidity factor of straight C? In your studies, have you found that taking too much at once is a waste, vs. max 500mg per dose for maximum use? I've shied away from ascorbates because of the buffering. And anything that might be too close to a meal for fear I'll get indigestion. But if C is necessary to take clearly away from food, is this the reason ascorbate might be better-- too much acid on its own not a good thing?

 

[Steven Bussinger]

I use ascorbate because years ago that's what somebody I trusted said I should use. I don't really know of any research or reasoning for one or another, and most people in the Orthomolecular side say it doesn't matter. The acidic form is supposed to be slightly more absorbable.

Spreading out the dosages might come into play for protocols with a targeted purpose (like during illness), but if you're just taking AA for general well-being, it's easiest to take it all at once.

 

[InChristAlone]

AA is more effective because it will donate more electrons, when you neutralizes ome of it with a mineral you lose an electron.

 

[matty]

Here is a good source of vitamin c, both AA and buffered options. Everything sold on this website is tested for heavy metals and they had this vitamin c manufactured specifically for purity. It's made in UK. I've only tried the buffered and seems good.

Health Ranger's Nutrition Rescue Non-GMO Buffered Vitamin C Powder (125 grams)

 

[Ella]

Haha they don't give out that information??? Then why should people be paying so much more for their product in the hopes that since it's not made in China it's higher quality?

Exactly, if you want to stand out above the rest and you know your product is better than the rest, you would be throwing your traces in people's faces to market it as such. That's what we did with the dog food. Why have roo meat and venison when other meats were exceptionally clean and we knew we could demand top price for the pet food treats. Easy to doctor a COA and if you are a clever chemist, the trace can even be manipulated. That is why we have checks and balances in place. How do you know as a consumer, unless you are auditing the facilities and the processes. Many of the auditors. Even though manufacturers are audited by so-called "independent" auditors, remember the

I'm in the Philippines. I'd be surprised if there is a testing service here. If there is, they'd probably send it abroad and it will at least double the cost. What did you find out with your test on organic meat? That made one hell of an expensive steak. I hope you bought the entire steer to spread the cost. Let me know as well what you find out with AA. Thanks Ella.

@yerrag my lab will do the once off lead in AA for $66 AU plus postage. You can PM me if you are still interested. I still don't understand why you would would not get sufficient from eating fruit and OJ which would be free of incipients.

I would make sure you are getting adequate calcium if you are concerned about lead, as calcium is antagonistic against lead and radioactive thalliam, uranium and other toxic elements. Orange juice is adequate and sometimes too bloody good at its job of chelating toxic metals.

Forcing toxic metals out of organ and tissue sites can cause more damage, so you want to go at a pace the body can handle without risk of more trauma and unwanted complications.

The eggshell powder work nicely in the dogs with extremely high levels of lead and aluminum toxicity. I was shocked to see the amount of thallium and uranium being excreted once the calcium was optimised. I think once we start to see high thallium and uranium, calcium is critically low. Made me appreciate the benefits of calcium and why Peat advocates addressing calcium needs above other remedial protocols.

 

[yerrag]

Exactly, if you want to stand out above the rest and you know your product is better than the rest, you would be throwing your traces in people's faces to market it as such. That's what we did with the dog food. Why have roo meat and venison when other meats were exceptionally clean and we knew we could demand top price for the pet food treats. Easy to doctor a COA and if you are a clever chemist, the trace can even be manipulated. That is why we have checks and balances in place. How do you know as a consumer, unless you are auditing the facilities and the processes. Many of the auditors. Even though manufacturers are audited by so-called "independent" auditors, remember the


@yerrag my lab will do the once off lead in AA for $66 AU plus postage. You can PM me if you are still interested. I still don't understand why you would would not get sufficient from eating fruit and OJ which would be free of incipients.

I would make sure you are getting adequate calcium if you are concerned about lead, as calcium is antagonistic against lead and radioactive thalliam, uranium and other toxic elements. Orange juice is adequate and sometimes too bloody good at its job of chelating toxic metals.

Forcing toxic metals out of organ and tissue sites can cause more damage, so you want to go at a pace the body can handle without risk of more trauma and unwanted complications.

The eggshell powder work nicely in the dogs with extremely high levels of lead and aluminum toxicity. I was shocked to see the amount of thallium and uranium being excreted once the calcium was optimised. I think once we start to see high thallium and uranium, calcium is critically low. Made me appreciate the benefits of calcium and why Peat advocates addressing calcium needs above other remedial protocols.

Thank you very much for the offer Ella. Sorry for the much delayed reply. I may take you up on that.

@Kray I got a response from DSM's Singapore office (the maker of Quali-C) and we're going to talk later. I hope they can be able to give a more definite response regarding the level of lead contamination in their Quali-C product. I'll ask them if they have a COA that can be obtained from each batch they produce. And if such information (batch number) is displayed on their product label. I'll also ask if they have production tolerance specifications set for lead content, and if so, what are these (i.e 3 ppm + or 1 o.25).

It may be a tall ask, since they don't sell Quali-C as a brand that can be bought by consumers. They are like an OEM (for lack of a better term) to supplement brands such as Dr. Best.

 

[Kray]

AA is more effective because it will donate more electrons, when you neutralizes ome of it with a mineral you lose an electron.

@janelle- sorry I've been away from disqus- thanks for that info.

 

[Kray]

Thank you very much for the offer Ella. Sorry for the much delayed reply. I may take you up on that.

@Kray I got a response from DSM's Singapore office (the maker of Quali-C) and we're going to talk later. I hope they can be able to give a more definite response regarding the level of lead contamination in their Quali-C product. I'll ask them if they have a COA that can be obtained from each batch they produce. And if such information (batch number) is displayed on their product label. I'll also ask if they have production tolerance specifications set for lead content, and if so, what are these (i.e 3 ppm + or 1 o.25).

It may be a tall ask, since they don't sell Quali-C as a brand that can be bought by consumers. They are like an OEM (for lack of a better term) to supplement brands such as Dr. Best.

Great, keep us posted!

 

[Queequeg]

according to labdoor BulkSupplements has the best Vitamin C. It's probably GMO derived but as said before at the molecular level that probably doesnt matter anymore.

Still not sure why Ray is so anti C. these contaminants are pretty low

here are the contaminants as tested by labdoor
Bulk Supplements Vitamin C Review
less than 0.01 mcg of total arsenic per serving
less than 0.01 mcg of cadmium per serving.
less than 0.005 mcg of lead per serving.
less than 0.01 mcg of mercury per serving.
serving size used is 1 gram so numbers are equivalent to ppm