Estrogen In Milk

[MrSmart]

I just explained that to you - twice.

Oh you mean this?

The increase in group 2 is interesting, though, since the antibody levels continue to increase way above what they were before the trial. This is especially striking since the data shows that we shouldn't expect to see a continuous rise of antibodies as the patients get older. Before the experiment there was only one patients (and remember they all were on their standard milk-containing diets before) with an autoantibody titer above 3. Most of them were below 1 or slightly above (no correlation with age). And, then, suddenly half of the guys in group two have an autoantibody titer of 3 or greater, and only one that has a titer of 1, with the others ranging between 2 and 3.

If the answer is yes, then maybe you should go back and read what I've already responded, and then read the study again.

 

[Kartoffel]

Oh you mean this?

If the answer is yes, then maybe you should go back and read what I've already responded, and then read the study again.

You mean your remark "because they were children"? I don't even know what that is supposed to mean. You also talked about the switch to bovine milk... There was no switch, they drank bovine milk from the beginning of the experiment, and the age of the participants ranged from 1-19. And once more: antibody levels were not correlated with age! There is no explanation or obvious reason for why their antibody levels should increase drastically in the follow up period.

 

[Travis]

I just explained that to you - twice.

Another proof the bovine folate receptor is responsible is it's high homology to the human analogue. When looking for the antigen for an autoantibody, naturally, the closest proteins should be considered first. Antibodies are highly selective towards protein sequences, and differences in just one polar amino acid can determine whether an antibody deserves the 'auto' prefix.

Due to the digital age, most proteins that have been sequenced previously are encoded on silicon; computer algorithms do the homology comparison for you, and search engines eliminate further the word required. Besides other primates, the homology between human and animal folate receptors are as follows: cat (78.4%), mouse (78.2%), cow (78.2%), and dog (79.4%)—an antibody risk factor only for Vietnamese. The folate receptors of sheep and goats are not homologous enough to have been listed in the search, yet I have read that goat receptor homology is around ~20%. Also, human FRα autoantibodies bind very strongly to cow and camel receptors, implying they could have been initially raised against them (Fig. B).

Besides the homology, concentration also matters. This same bovine folate receptor is also found in beef products, yet it exists in far greater concentrations in milk (Fig. A). This receptor is not firmly anchored to the cell membrane, exfoliates, and can be found in the milk of their respective species.

There is also a good amount of clinical data demonstrating that cow's milk induces the formation of FRα autoantibodies, a proposition not lacking in plausibility due to its near universal consumption. Ray Peat's offhand comment had unrealistic insinuations, and rational immunologists would not expect high affinity FRα autoantibodies to form from any other food—besides perhaps cat, mouse, dog, and camel milk.

[1] Uniprot BLAST search of Homo Sapien FRα versus Animal Kingdom
[2] Sequeira, Jeffrey M. "The diagnostic utility of folate receptor autoantibodies in blood." Clinical chemistry and laboratory medicine (2013)​

 

[MrSmart]

You mean your remark "because they were children"? I don't even know what that is supposed to mean. You also talked about the switch to bovine milk... There was no switch, they drank bovine milk from the beginning of the experiment, and the age of the participants ranged from 1-19. And once more: antibody levels were not correlated with age! There is no explanation or obvious reason for why their antibody levels should increase drastically in the follow up period.

Further characterization of the FR autoantibodies from these nine patients showed that the autoantibodies blocked the binding of folate to the FR purified from human placental membranes, human milk, bovine milk, and goat milk with highest cross-reactivity against FR from bovine milk.​

 

[Travis]

Yes but the discussion is for children which you would confidently assume that no compromised intestinal barrier exists.

I can't waste any more time on that while managing billions of dollars, you would have to wait for @Travis to continue following the breadcrumbs with you.

These antibodies are much more common in older people (~42%), yet are less of a problem for them. Folate is required as a cofactor for the synthesis of every dNA base besides cytosine, and the growing brain needs this more than those already formed. These autoantibodies are somewhat rare in children, having a prevalence of about 5% in milk-drinking countries (for both binding & blocking subtypes). Also: adults could can get by with less intelligence because they have more knowledge, which can be compensatory.

 

[Travis]

Further characterization of the FR autoantibodies from these nine patients showed that the autoantibodies blocked the binding of folate to the FR purified from human placental membranes, human milk, bovine milk, and goat milk with highest cross-reactivity against FR from bovine milk.​

I've had it with Kartoffel; he is either a paid propagandist, hopelessly biased, or a recalcitrant moron.

 

[Kartoffel]

Further characterization of the FR autoantibodies from these nine patients showed that the autoantibodies blocked the binding of folate to the FR purified from human placental membranes, human milk, bovine milk, and goat milk with highest cross-reactivity against FR from bovine milk.

Wtf....Those were in the milk-free group! What are you even thinking? That the control group drinking milk....doesn't drink milk? @Travis You shouldn't call people morons when you don't read properly.

 

[MrSmart]

I've had it with Kartoffel, he is either a paid propagandist or a recalcitrant moron.

He doesn't comprehend the substance of cross-reactivity.

Wtf....Those were in the milk-free group! What are you even thinking? That the control group drinking milk....doesn't drink milk? @Travis You shouldn't call people morons when you don't read properly.

The milk-free group had almost no to none antibodies remember? These were the FRAbs formed after 3 to 6 weeks of re-exposure to milk from failure to comply with the milk-free diet.

 

[Kartoffel]

He doesn't comprehend the substance of cross-reactivity.

I understand the concept of cross-reactivity rather well I think. Don't pretend to be Travis, it doesn't suit you. And didn't you say you need to manage your billion dollar company? It's cute, by the way, how @Travis and you are interacting now, just a day after calling each other morons, and Travis insinuating that you are one of my multiple accounts. Can't make this stuff up^^

The milk-free group has almost no to none antibodies remember? These were the FRAbs formed after 3 to 6 weeks of re-exposure to milk from failure to comply with the milk-free diet.

I'm not talking about the milk-free group

 

[MrSmart]

I'm not talking about the milk-free group

It doesn't seem like you understand. What part of highest cross-reactivity to bovine milk folate receptors after re-exposure to milk don't you understand?

 

[MrSmart]

Don't pretend to be Travis, it doesn't suit you.

You mean by not being an idiot? Sorry, I can't help it.

 

[MrSmart]

Here's a repaste of the previous chart in case your brain got overloaded again.

And here is the cross-reactivity diagram with p-values

 

[MrSmart]

I have been saying that native cow's milk may be 100% safe, yet it's the process of homogenization that facilitates large peptide persorption.

This appears true with regards to pasteurization and folate-receptor complexes

Sahoo, Bikash Ranjan, et al. "Structural and dynamic investigation of bovine folate receptor alpha (FOLR1), and role of ultra-high temperature processing on conformational and thermodynamic characteristics of FOLR1–folate complex." Colloids and Surfaces B: Biointerfaces 121 (2014): 307-318.
​

Although it doesn't seem that raw milk is 100% safe either but better than pasteurized/homogenized milk. I question Ray's confidence in recommending milk, especially with anecdotal evidence of immunoreactions. I'm intrigued by this topic and will look closer into the research tomorrow.

Høst, Arne. "Cow's milk protein allergy and intolerance in infancy Some clinical, epidemiological and immunological aspects." Pediatric Allergy and Immunology 5.S6 (1994): 5-36.
Høst, A., and E‐G. Samuelsson. "Allergic reactions to raw, pasteurized, and homogenized/pasteurized cow milk: a comparison: A double‐blind placebo‐controlled study in milk allergic children." Allergy43.2 (1988): 113-118.​

 

[Kartoffel]

Here's a repaste of the previous chart in case your brain got overloaded again.

And here is the cross-reactivity diagram with p-values

Ok, let's stop here, I'm not playing this stupid game. All my last posts were about the milk drinking group, and now you suddenly switch to straw man-tactics and talk about something else completely, trying to make it look like I don't understand your arguments. You are clearly unable or unwilling to provide an answer to the points I have addressed. I'm sure you and Travis will quickly find something that will allow you to throw childish insults at eacher again, especially since you are trying to copy his style now. One last thing..Since you are an expert on cross reactivity and antibody formation, you might wanna read this paper on IgG (hint: that's the anitbody they detected in our study). Maybe it will help you understand some of the points I have made a little better. Oh, and that bar diagram you just posted perfectly describes the whole study - misleading and inaccurate.

Anyways, I have addressed all the points I wanted to address with regards to this study, and I'll leave it to the reader to decide whether they are justified and worth considering or not.

Role of immunoglobulin G antibodies in diagnosis of food allergy

 

[MrSmart]

Ok, let's stop here, I'm not playing this stupid game. All my last posts were about the milk drinking group, and now you suddenly switch to straw man-tactics and talk about something else completely, trying to make it look like I don't understand your arguments. You are clearly unable or unwilling to provide an answer to the points I have addressed. I'm sure you and Travis will quickly find something that will allow you to throw childish insults at eacher again, especially since you are trying to copy his style now. One last thing..Since you are an expert on cross reactivity and antibody formation, you might wanna read this paper on IgG (hint: that's the anitbody they detected in our study). Maybe it will help you understand some of the points I have made a little better. Oh, and that bar diagram you just posted perfectly describes the whole study - misleading and inaccurate.

Anyways, I have addressed all the points I wanted to address with regards to this study, and I'll leave it to the reader to decide whether they are justified and worth considering or not.

Role of immunoglobulin G antibodies in diagnosis of food allergy

You are hopeless. Completely irrelevant that the milk group had increasing FRAbs over 24 months. Formulate your argument better and reply to the actual evidence I gave instead nitpicking stupid findings.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with posting a full study to IgGs.

 

[Wolf]

I think you would have reacted to ANY milk you tried.

DAIRY (not just milk) is known and has been convincingly shown to be both acne-genic/acne-forming and cause dermatitis/other skin eruptions.
Dairy, including the hormones naturally present it, still nourishes us, but Peatarians are delusional if they don't think that milk is a relatively allergenic food that although high in nutrition, can cause everything from diarrhea to skin issues. More likely, ANY milk you purchase will vary.

Grocery Store milk, including many of the organic brands, comes from a process called "pooling." This is where they take milk from cows on the farmer's land/the co-op and pool it in a big steel vat. It's just as likely, if not more, that the milk inside the milk carton comes from more than 1 cow.
I think you should continue drinking milk but perhaps consume YOGURT with it, seeing as how many lactose-intolerant people can still tolerate yogurt. I don't personally buy Lactaid/Lactose-reduced milks but I have tried them before and like the taste a lot. When consuming some yogurt with your milk, some "lactose-intolerant" people find they can temporarily tolerate larger amounts of dairy (leaky gut, by another name. RP also believes the small intestine is damaged in people who have supposed "Lactase-Enzyme deficiency.").

Even if you continue reacting negatively (physically) to milk, it's still nutritious and it's (reacting to dairy) possibly a barometer or gauge of one aspect of digestion.

Not sure if bolding and capitalizing to dumb it down. Anyways, it stands to reason that different "pooled" milks will contain varying amounts of allergens, nutrients, and whatever the hell else. If a given amount of a type of milk provokes an allergenic reaction and for another it takes 5 times as much then obviously one is better than the other.

 

[SOMO]

Not sure if bolding and capitalizing to dumb it down. Anyways, it stands to reason that different "pooled" milks will contain varying amounts of allergens, nutrients, and whatever the hell else. If a given amount of a type of milk provokes an allergenic reaction and for another it takes 5 times as much then obviously one is better than the other.

Bolding/capitalizing is convenience for people who skim through topics or non-Peatarians who may just be passing through.

Switching brands is still a band-aid solution, gut barrier function can still stand to improve.