Battle Of Thiamines

[Lucenzo01]

Source: https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/25772-battle-of-the-thiamines/

I am interested in the use of thiamine derivatives for the treatment of Dysautonomia or autonomia system dysfunction. Working through terrible "brain fog", I read the works of Dr. Derrick Lonsdale on using B1 to treat this. He believes the use of allithiamines which are fat soluble derivatives of B1 serves this purpose a lot better than ordinary thiamine salts. So, I assumed Benfotiamine was the best choice. I've been using it for a few months and while I have seen minor improvements, such as less tremors in my hands, I have not noticed more pronounced effects as I was expecting. I just re-read the two articles and it seems there's a better form of fat soluble B1 than benfotiamine. I searched the forum but only found a couple of scant references.


Thiamine's Mood-Mending Qualities

http://www.newhope.c...99/thiamine.cfm


Dysautonomia, A Heuristic Approach to a Revised Model for Etiology of Disease
http://ecam.oxfordjo...t/full/nem064v1



A Review of the Biochemistry, Metabolism and Clinical Benefits of Thiamin(e) and Its Derivatives

http://ecam.oxfordjo...abstract/3/1/49


Thiamine tetrahydrofurfuryl disulfi de: a little known therapeutic agent

http://journals.inde....php?ICID=11763


The story goes something like this: There are two classes of fat soluble B1, disulfide "allithiamines" and S-acyl-thiamine derivatives. Benfotiamine is of the S-acyl form while tetrahydrofurfuryl disulfide (TTFD) obviously is a disulfide and the only one considered to be an "Allithiamine". According to the Japanese guys that discovered these derivatives way back when, it's the disulfides that are more biologically active. They both work, but the TTFD are better. I haven't looked this up, but if benfotiamine has AGEs inhibiting properties, allithiamines should possess this same quality. Also, allithiamines and NOT S-acyl derivatives also have additional actiona like heavy metal chelation, anti-inflammatory and detoxifying effects against trichloroethylene and potassium cyanide.

This is from the 3rd link above:

"Although a series of S-acyl derivatives were studied, these investigators found that the disulfides had the best therapeutic effect "

Benfotiamine is a S-acyl derivative while TTFD falls under the disulfides. TTFD is also called fursultiamine.

"They concluded that thiamine enhances elimination of lead from the body and that this feature may be beneficial in chelation therapy."

This is way cool, but....

"It was noted that S-acyl derivatives are devoid of the preventive effect against trichloroethylene, potassium cyanide or lead intoxication that characterized their investigation of thiamine propyl disulfide, one of the early disulfide derivatives."

So, only the TTFD form can also chelate lead and other nasties from the body while benfotiamine doesn't have this quality.

Thiamine DerivativesMany thiamine derivatives have been synthesized after the discovery of allithiamine (97) (Figs 2 and 3) Most of the original studies were performed in Japan and the details were published in 1965 (98). Although a series of S-acyl derivatives were studied, these investigators found that the disulfides had the best therapeutic effect (99). It was noted that S-acyl derivatives are devoid of the preventive effect against trichloroethylene, potassium cyanide or lead intoxication that characterized their investigation of thiamine propyl disulfide, one of the early disulfide derivatives. These early investigators ascribed this failure to prevent toxicity to the absence of the S–S bond. The disulfides are easily reduced to thiamine in the presence of cystine or glutathione while the S-acyl derivatives require enzymatic reduction in liver or kidney.

There is also a discussion whether or not benfotiamine delivers thiamine into the cell passively like TTFD or if it's dumped outside of it necessitating a transport vehicle.

Then it gets interesting....

In response to an AD for Benfotiamine by AOR, Dr. Lonsdale wrote this:

http://findarticles....ag=artBody;col1

AOR's response:

http://findarticles....ag=artBody;col1 (in my opinion, this reponse didn't say much)


The good Doc. then countered again:

http://findarticles....ag=artBody;col1

..and that's the last of this communication I could find.

I have read from other Dysautonomia sufferers that they only seem to benefit from using allithiamine (TTFD) transdermal cream

http://www.ourkidsas...CFRxNagodjS3JEg

and get no improvement from using Benfotiamine. A big problem with the cream is that it will make you and your clothes stink of garlic. Actually, this is a big problem and the main reason I went for benfotiamine instead. But now I wonder If I would benefit more from using the cream versus benfo.

I also found TTFD in pill form by Ecological formulas (who also makes the cream) and I would assume that it's as effective as the cream, but I can't find any data or anecdotes to support this.
http://www.fubaoheal...LITHIAMINE.html

Any thoughts on this?

 

[SB4]

I currently take Allithiamine from ecological formulas. If you want to do transdermal just open the capsule up and mix it with a cream or something that absorbs through skin (ethanol?). I think this is due to allithiamine being fat soluble. I have done both transdermal and oral from this product and have achieved effects from both.

 

[ddjd]

its been said a few times that thiamine hydrochloride is dirt cheap and extremely well absorbed

 

[Tenacity]

I used a cheap thiamine mononitrate, 100mg daily for a month, for autonomic dysfunction and didn't notice significant improvement.

 

[greengr]

Can benfothiamine potentially feed tumors and cancer? Anyone know anything about this?

 

[Trix]

Allithiamine crosses the BBB when taken orally....it is a transport enzyme problem. I consider this an inexpensive product with excellent results if this is what a person needs. I got overnight results and consider it my main supplement that got me on a path of recovery. The only thing that I have heard negatively is that potassium needs to be higher in the diet when using B1. I do not like the smell of sulfur, so I would not use it topically myself. I've read Haidut takes Allithiamine once a week, but I need it almost daily. I think I process sulfur fast, just intuition.

 

[Hazarlar]

I have heard that supplementing B1 can lower B2, B6, magnesium and iron. Just information gathered from this forum and other sites, nothing scientific.

I supplement benfothiamine mainly after high carb meals (50-100 mg). Sometimes it takes away brain fog and gets new life into muscles and sometimes not. Copper was suggested to be cofactor in another thread, but I have not felt so much difference, after potato or liver meal.

 

[Broken man]

I currently take Allithiamine from ecological formulas. If you want to do transdermal just open the capsule up and mix it with a cream or something that absorbs through skin (ethanol?). I think this is due to allithiamine being fat soluble. I have done both transdermal and oral from this product and have achieved effects from both.

Did you have digestive problems?

 

[Broken man]

The problem with regular thiamine is that you need ATP to use it effectively but you dont need it with Allithiamine and sulbutiamine.

 

[Vinero]

The problem with regular thiamine is that you need ATP to use it effectively but you dont need it with Allithiamine and sulbutiamine.

Everyone has ATP. Without ATP you would be dead.

 

[SB4]

Did you have digestive problems?

No.

@Vinero Right, but if you are lacking in ATP due to illness then if it's true that Thaimin hcl needs ATP, it wouldn't be as effective.

 

[LeeLemonoil]

Vitamin B1 analogue fursultiamine increases stamina and strength

Vitamin B1 analogue fursultiamine increases stamina and strength

Fursultiamine is a synthetic version of vitamin B1. If you give it to mice, their stamina increases spectacularly - and their muscles will get stronger. All without training. This is shown by a study that Taiwanese researchers published in Nutrients.
Fursultiamine
Fursulftiamine's official name is thiamine tetrahydrofurfuryl disulfide [TTFD]. It is a synthetic variant of thiamine or vitamin B1, which due to its structure is more easily absorbed by cells from regular thiamine. Once in the cells, fursultiamine does what regular thiamine does as well: it clings to phosphates, and forms molecules that provide the cell with energy

 

[BigChad]

I have heard that supplementing B1 can lower B2, B6, magnesium and iron. Just information gathered from this forum and other sites, nothing scientific.

I supplement benfothiamine mainly after high carb meals (50-100 mg). Sometimes it takes away brain fog and gets new life into muscles and sometimes not. Copper was suggested to be cofactor in another thread, but I have not felt so much difference, after potato or liver meal.

Thats crazy. Ive heard b1 lowers manganese. Didn't know about those others. It seems like every b vitamin can deplete other b vitamins or minerals. I heard b6 depletes copper, iron and calcium?

Do you know what vitamins c, a, e, d and k deplete? With c i heard it depletes copper calcium and zinc

 

[Hazarlar]

Thats crazy. Ive heard b1 lowers manganese. Didn't know about those others. It seems like every b vitamin can deplete other b vitamins or minerals. I heard b6 depletes copper, iron and calcium?

Do you know what vitamins c, a, e, d and k deplete? With c i heard it depletes copper calcium and zinc

There are some information about these topics in this forum but is very scattered around different threads. You can read this document ---> http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/1990/pdf/1990-v05n01-p011.pdf

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

I used a cheap thiamine mononitrate, 100mg daily for a month, for autonomic dysfunction and didn't notice significant improvement.

You're supposed to take like. 1-2 grams oft hat stuff, because the absorption rate is 3-6%.

 

[Tenacity]

You're supposed to take like. 1-2 grams oft hat stuff, because the absorption rate is 3-6%.

I've got my hands recently on some thiamine hydrochloride, but sadly even 10mg of the stuff gives me a headache. A gram of niacinamide does the same so it's probably powerfully lowering my blood sugar.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

I've got my hands recently on some thiamine hydrochloride, but sadly even 10mg of the stuff gives me a headache. A gram of niacinamide does the same so it's probably powerfully lowering my blood sugar.

Did you try to stack it with riboflavin or just together with a carb heavy meal? Or maybe you don't even need it...

 

[Birdie]

I've got my hands recently on some thiamine hydrochloride, but sadly even 10mg of the stuff gives me a headache. A gram of niacinamide does the same so it's probably powerfully lowering my blood sugar.

Maybe you're reacting to some additive. Possibly it isn't the thiamine.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Maybe you're reacting to some additive. Possibly it isn't the thiamine.

What she said. 10mg is nothing - bioavailability of Thiamine HCL is 3-5% only, from that amount you're getting maybe 0,5mgs.