Nietzsche As Biological Visionary?

[DaveFoster]

Thanks a lot for that explanation Dave.

I agree that one's interaction with the environment can have an effect on intelligence. From being exposed to ideas, to proper nutrition at key development times, to avoidance of substance abuse, etc. But I think this is akin to how a lot of environmental factors led Michael Jordan to develop his basketball skill. There's a genetic component (height, eyesight, muscle tissue, etc.) that determined how great a basketball player he could be.

I really dislike the "Peat would argue the opposite I believe: he would offer that intelligence is an ingrained function of a cell" line of reasoning. Where is the evidence for this? How is a cell intelligent? How can we test it? I worry that it may be the case of using a word in a way that doesn't mean what people usually mean when the use the word.



Is matter intelligent? Or cells? I'd like for matter to be intelligent, but I don't see any evidence for it and it just seems like wishful thinking. How are atoms following natural laws intelligent?

I've read your last paragraph a few times and it seems to me we're saying the same thing. Genetics largely shapes the architecture of the brain(or a probability distribution of potential brains that environment factors can skew) and the architecture governs potential the same way Michael Jordan's genetics governed his potential greatness as an nba player.

Check this out if you haven't, but I'm sure you have.

Intelligence and metabolism

By matter being intelligent, I mean atoms will spontaneously form biological structures in the right environment.

Miller–Urey experiment - Wikipedia

The Miller-Urey experiment is more helpful as it segways into abiogenesis. Basically, biology is not a fluke; it's an extension of an innate process. In other words, the cell reflects the organizational capacity and tendency of the atom.

Even Organisms Without Neurons Are Capable Of Intelligence And Learning

 

[tara]

I can think of no way to quantify that

That may be as good an approach as any. I'll take that as a withdrawal of your original claim about the great measure of Western philanthropy, and if we are talking about intent rather than impact, my own about 'negative net philanthropy' does not apply either - as you say, intent is hard to measure. (But if we are talking about impact, rather than intent, I still see my assessment as realistic.)

 

[jaa]

Check this out if you haven't, but I'm sure you have.

Intelligence and metabolism

By matter being intelligent, I mean atoms will spontaneously form biological structures in the right environment.

Miller–Urey experiment - Wikipedia

The Miller-Urey experiment is more helpful as it segways into abiogenesis. Basically, biology is not a fluke; it's an extension of an innate process. In other words, the cell reflects the organizational capacity and tendency of the atom.

Even Organisms Without Neurons Are Capable Of Intelligence And Learning

Thanks again.

It sounds like you are using the word intelligence when referring to matter vs organisms in very different ways. For matter, I don't think you have to use the word intelligence to describe abiogenesis when simple chemical reactions under certain conditions would suffice.

We know plants and slime can react to their environment. That does not mean a plant's IQ is or EQ is boundless. It is constrained by it's biology. It's genetics. Just like humans.

 

[DaveFoster]

Thanks again.

It sounds like you are using the word intelligence when referring to matter vs organisms in very different ways. For matter, I don't think you have to use the word intelligence to describe abiogenesis when simple chemical reactions under certain conditions would suffice.

We know plants and slime can react to their environment. That does not mean a plant's IQ is or EQ is boundless. It is constrained by it's biology. It's genetics. Just like humans.

You're correct; I think arguing against genetics is silly.

 

[jaa]

Check this out if you haven't, but I'm sure you have.

Intelligence and metabolism

By matter being intelligent, I mean atoms will spontaneously form biological structures in the right environment.

Miller–Urey experiment - Wikipedia

The Miller-Urey experiment is more helpful as it segways into abiogenesis. Basically, biology is not a fluke; it's an extension of an innate process. In other words, the cell reflects the organizational capacity and tendency of the atom.

Even Organisms Without Neurons Are Capable Of Intelligence And Learning

Finally got through that Peat article. It was quite interesting. Thanks!

 

[DaveFoster]

"I am much more interested in another question which the “salvation of humanity” depends much more than upon any piece of theological curiosity: the question of nutrition. For ordinary purposes, it may be formulated thus: “How precisely must thou nourish thyself in order to attain to thy maximum of power, or virtue in the Renaissance style of virtue free from moralism?” Here my experiences have been the worst possible; I am surprised that it took me so long to become aware of this question and to derive “understanding” from my experiences. Only the utter worthlessness of our German culture-its “idealism”-can to some extent explain how it was that precisely in this matter I was so backward that my ignorance was almost saintly. For this “culture” from first to last teaches one to lose sight of realities and instead to hunt after thoroughly problematic, so-called ideal goals, as, for instance, “classical culture”-as if we were not doomed from the start in our endeavor to unite “classical” and “German” in one concept! […] German intellect is indigestion; it can assimilate nothing. But even English, which, as against German, and indeed French, diet, seems to me to be a “return to Nature”-that is to say, to cannibalism-is basically repugnant to my own instincts. It seems to me that it gives the intellect heavy feet, Englishwomen’s feet. . . . The best cooking is that of Piedmont. Alcohol does not agree with me; one glass of wine or beer a day is enough to turn life into a valley of tears for me; in Munich live my antipodes. Admitting that I came to understand this rationally rather late, yet I had experienced it as a mere child. As a boy I believed that wine-drinking and tobacco-smoking were at first but youthful vanities, and later simply bad habits. Perhaps the wine of Naumburg was partly responsible for this harsh judgment. To believe that wine was exhilarating, I should have had to be a Christian-in other words, I should have had to believe in what, for me, is an absurdity. Strangely enough, whereas small largely diluted quantities of alcohol depressed me, great quantities made me act almost like a sailor on shore leave. Even as a boy I showed my bravado in this respect. […] Later on, towards the middle of my life, I grew more and more decisive in my opposition to spirituous drinks: 1, an opponent of vegetarianism from experience-like Richard Wagner, who reconverted in annot with sufficient earnest-ness advise all more spiritual natures to abstain absolutely from alcohol. Water answers the same purpose. I prefer those places where there are numerous opportunities of drinking from running brooks as at Nice, Turin, Sils, where water follows me wherever I turn. In vino veritas: it seems that here too I disagree with the rest of the world about the concept “Truth”-with me spirit moves on the face of the waters. Here are a few more bits of advice taken from my morality. A heavy meal is digested more easily than one that is too meager. The first condition of a good digestion is that the stomach should be active as a whole. Therefore a man ought to know the size of his stomach. For the same reasons I advise against all those interminable meals, which I call interrupted sacrificial feasts, and which are to be had at any table d’hdte. Nothing between meals, no coffee-coffee makes one gloomy. Tea is advisable only in the morning-in small quantities, but very strong. It may be very harmful, and indispose you for the whole day, if it is the least bit too weak. Here each one has his own standard, often between the narrowest and most delicate limits. In a very enervating climate it is, inadvisable to begin the day with tea: an hour before, it is a good thing to have a cup of thick cocoa, free from oil. Remain seated as little as possible; trust no thought that is not born in the open, to the accompaniment of free bodily motion-nor one in which your very muscles do not celebrate a feast. All prejudices may be traced back to the intestines. A sedentary life, as I have already said elsewhere, is the real sin against the Holy Ghost."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[Drareg]

Ray Peat mentions that argument in the quote I posted. Here what he has to say.

That argument neglects the closer similarity of the intrauterine conditions experienced by twins, for example the sharing of the same placenta, and experiencing more concordant biochemical interactions between fetus and mother. - Ray Peat

What you miss is that the prenatal environment of the twins, which being the same, would probably have very strong effects on certain "traits" that are expressed in it's life time. That doesn't prove the genetic theory, rather it's proves that epigenetic/lamarckian point of view. Because prenatal imprinting

My so call extraordinary claims have already been proven. Marian Diamonds work prove the foundation for intelligence being cultivate in the environment. Various studies show how certain activities produce brain growth as well.

This is a great quote and very relevant on top of the fact the twins were separated in the same country/culture,the womb environment is essentially the outside environment once the seed unfolds.
Show this quote to the inherited intelligence brigade and they will probably claim it's defined as inherited intelligence while still in the womb,they will look to hide behind semantics and drop the point of unchanging intelligence throughout a lifetime regardless of environment.

I'm more curious at this point about the agenda of inherited intelligence brigade in contemporary times,why is it mainly males making this argument, there seems to be some mental loops defeatist males get stuck in like intellectualism covering the rage/frustration,become power mad in the hope the power will get the partner they really desire,these desires being met will solve nothing for a mind like this because the urges underlying it are primitive hidden by intellectualism, then of course their is those who need to maintain their academic salaries until retirement like the men over at "why evolution is true".

 

[oolongmonkey]

Network resets in medial prefrontal cortex mark the onset of behavioral uncertainty Network Resets in Medial PrefrontalCortex Mark the Onset ofBehavioral Uncertainty

http://epileptologie-bonn.de/cms/upload/homepage/axmacher/NatRevNeurosci2011.pdf The role of phase synchronization in memory processes

There are things discussed in the above articles that I don't think many cognitive scientists and psychologists take into consideration, either. Phase resets, particularly in the mPFC are accompanied by increases in exploratory behavior and can underlie moments of "sudden insight". Phase synchronization between brain regions, as outlined in the second paper, is very important for both working and long-term memory. This is likely true for several reasons, one of which is greatly enhanced ability of the post-synaptic neuron to receive several inputs at once. It additionally allows there to be precision in the timing of action potentials resulting from said phase synchronization between two regions, allowing for 'timing dependent plasticity' of those synaptic connections. This greatly increases the entire brains ability to communicate with itself.

The cool thing is - there are now newer technologies and programs available that can actually train proper phase synchronization in the brain, especially regarding gamma oscillations as well.

@jag2594: "It's hilarious how people are so committed to their false ideas on IQ and genetic intelligence. While being being proponents of people like Mae Wan Ho who prove rightly that their was no basis for those statements."

Was that directed towards me?

I'm of the opinion that intelligence is (1) poorly defined by most people (or they at least use the wrong form of intelligence to describe what they're speaking about) and (2) that it is malleable to a great extent.

Bigpapachakra, contact me if you can. I am a neurotherapist in the chicagoland area. I have done extensive research in the area of biohacking and neurotherapy. Perhaps we could get together and pick each others brains a bit. Email me if you can [email protected]

 

[energyandstruct]

Its hard to tell whether your being sarcastic or not. Since I will not try to guess. But will go down another road.

I think you may see Nietzsche as more "digestible" because you yourself ( and others like @Dopamine) are more in sync with his ideas. And what are his ideas, the glorification of war and violence, being inhumane and immoral. There is no secret that this philosophy is a centrality of Nietzschean ideology. So it may be that you are a immoral, inhumane, and violence loving person. You should be honest with your self and say that in the mirror.

is it immoral to be a cat and kill a mouse? that's one question

A better question is if it is unhealthy to be a cat and kill a mouse, and even play with it cruelly?

Ray certainly opposes what he defines as authoritarianism, which is seen as rigid and dogmatic. But I don't think his idea of health, or any robust idea of health, is incompatible with being the cat in that scenario.

 

[lampofred]

Sorry for being reductionist, but Nietzsche sounds as if he is overloaded with estrogen and serotonin because of his isolation. That might be why he dislikes coffee and alcohol, both temporarily reduce estrogenic activity and increase progesterone's effects in the short-run (although alcohol will obviously make estrogen dominance worse in the long-run) which removes his numbing of his pain and makes him unbearably depressed. He could use a good dose of progesterone... Honestly everyone could use progesterone... I think it would reduce alcoholism and anxiety.

 

[milk]

So not only was Lamarck rather right, and Darwin not so much, but abiogenisis is actually a thing? It's almost like "they" know this, and that's why we are taught the opposite at school...

 

[energyandstruct]

Sorry for being reductionist, but Nietzsche sounds as if he is overloaded with estrogen and serotonin because of his isolation. That might be why he dislikes coffee and alcohol, both temporarily reduce estrogenic activity and increase progesterone's effects in the short-run (although alcohol will obviously make estrogen dominance worse in the long-run) which removes his numbing of his pain and makes him unbearably depressed. He could use a good dose of progesterone... Honestly everyone could use progesterone... I think it would reduce alcoholism and anxiety.

Nietzsche was very ill his whole life, but I hate the reductionist application of ray's ideas to people to dismiss their ideas based on whether or not they were healthy... this is dumb... what's more relevant is that Nietzsche lived with and overcame his illnesses in a way that many people couldn't have.

 

[RisingSun]

Nietzsche on Nutrition/Health/Biology:


"What, after all, is "useful"? One must ask "useful in relation to what?" E.g., that which is useful for the long life of the individual might be unfavorable to its strength and splendor; that which preserves the individual might at the same time arrest and halt its evolution. On the other hand, a deficiency, a degeneration, can be of the highest utility in so far as it acts as a stimulant to other organs. In the same way, a state of need can be a condition of existence, in so far as it reduces an individual to that measure of expenditure which holds it together but prevents it from squandering itself.- The individual itself as a struggle between parts (for food, space, etc.) : its evolution tied to the victory or predominance of individual parts, to an atrophy, a "becoming an organ" of other parts."

Is it to be understood that giving the body all the nutrients it needs and even more (understand supplements) is counterproductive and makes it weaker and unused to striving for survival?

 

[CarbAppreciator]

Bumping this goldmine of a thread, it gets a little heated, which is a good thing.

 

[RisingSun]

Is it to be understood that giving the body all the nutrients it needs and even more (understand supplements) is counterproductive and makes it weaker and unused to striving for survival?

Anyone?

 

[CarbAppreciator]

He speaks of opposition rather than competition(Ray Peat),this is in relation to the majority of humans current behaviour.

If nature is one force it's impossible for it to compete with itself,this renders the idea of nature being competitive to perception/brain, what we can know currently ,nature/reality knows all.

Peat is anything but passive.

I don't assume anything this is why I used the word "some". Many philopshers work has been bastardised by those projecting their own bias,it's easier to use selected works,quotes to use as a mask/persona for underlying issues an individual will not address,personality pathologies,patterns the individual cannot/refuse to break,they get worse under stress.

I'd be interested to know how you arrived at "nature" being one force. I still maintain competition, or defeating an opponent (death, consumption), is clearly an observed and fundamental phenomena in evolution, just because there are advantages to cooperation doesn't justify the softening of competition into a vague and nudered concept of "opposition", I don't deny competition is brutal and disconcerting to us weak humans, but it is reality, regardless of its moral implications, and I maintain that it accelerates evolution. I view Peat's silence on competition it as ideologically conditioned, which to me is an unfortunate blemish on his conception of reality, and one which inevitably colors his views on stress, exercise, catabolism etc.

 

[CarbAppreciator]

Anyone?

Well caloric restriction seems to be effective at extending lifespan across all fauna. It seems reasonable that excess nutrition will feed bacteria in the bowel.

 

[energyandstruct]

btw when reading nietzsche i think it's necessary to grasp the exoteric/esoteric distinction. geoff waite elaborates on this in his book 'nietzsche's corps/e' thx goodbye

 

[RisingSun]

Well caloric restriction seems to be effective at extending lifespan across all fauna. It seems reasonable that excess nutrition will feed bacteria in the bowel.

I don't take increased life span as a gauge of health.

I mean to say: will hurdles make a man manlier? As in his body will be forged to combat?

A man that has been raised in the farm or a war environment has very masculine traits (thick arms, thick neck, leathery skin with a thick beard of somewhat thinning hair).

Nowadays all I see is "men" taking bottles of supplements and vitamins that have never looked so feminine (thin hairless arms, long fingers, thin neck, head full of hair, very soft face features, like Danny Roddy for example).


The fact that society is abundant and has it too easy is shaping eunuchs.

I miss my real men

 

[CarbAppreciator]

I don't take increased life span as a gauge of health.

I mean to say: will hurdles make a man manlier? As in his body will be forged to combat?

A man that has been raised in the farm or a war environment has very masculine traits (thick arms, thick neck, leathery skin with a thick beard of somewhat thinning hair).

Nowadays all I see is "men" taking bottles of supplements and vitamins that have never looked so feminine (thin hairless arms, long fingers, thin neck, head full of hair, very soft face features, like Danny Roddy for example).


The fact that society is abundant and has it too easy is shaping eunuchs.

I miss my real men

I too perceive widespread infantilism in adults.

I always thought it's very poetic how a muscle grows bigger. Of course we know muscle grows from exercise, but a closer look at the effects of exercise itself reveals an image of chaos. First it is depleted of energy as creatine and glucose are rapidly used up, it desperately tries to maintain osmotic balance, structure and function give way as it shuts down from fatigue. Only after functionality is lost, does the body try to compensate by rebuilding structure, without the need of function, structure tends not to develop.

One can apply the same principle to other structural deficits, whether physical, behavioral or cognitive For example, a modern man tends not to develop masculine behavior or physique as long as he is sexually satisfied with pornography.