Chris Masterjohn's View Of AA And COX Being Essential In Resolving Inflammation

[Mufasa]

I was watching a video of Chris Masterjohn, where he points out that he doesn't believe in anti-inflammatory drugs because that they not only inhibit the initiating of inflammation but also inhibit resolving inflammation (from 14:15):


Are you guys familiar with this point of view? And do you guys have an opinion about this?

He specifically points to the COX inhibitors, and points out that high dose fish oil is in fact not acting very different than a COX inhibitor. He says that AA and the action of COX on AA is crucial to resolving inflammation, and that inhibiting this process can make inflammation become chronic.

I guess that this doesn't necessarily interferes with Ray Peat's recommendations. He recommends against high dose fish oils. The anti inflammatory aspirin he recommends, is not a strong inhibitor of COX in vivo. And eating egg yolks on a daily basis would make it pretty impossible to become deficient in AA.

I'm aware of the idea that mead acid could replace the role of AA in the COX metabolism, but I think this argument is for most people purely theoretical. Because in the natural diet, where you consume non hydrogenated coconut oil, butter, seafood and egg yolks, it seems pretty much impossible to deplete your body from AA (or the other fatty acids that metabolise to AA).

So the question remains then, is the action of COX on AA crucial to resolving inflammation and could inhibiting this process make inflammation become chronic?

Tagging @haidut as he seems to have studied AA metabolism in detail. I have also emailed Ray Peat the same question.

 

[raypeatclips]

Please post Rays response if you get it.

 

[lampofred]

Please post Rays response if you get it.

+1

 

[yoshiesque]

yes please post rays response! im curious about this one.

 

[Mufasa]

No response yet.

 

[haidut]

I was watching a video of Chris Masterjohn, where he points out that he doesn't believe in anti-inflammatory drugs because that they not only inhibit the initiating of inflammation but also inhibit resolving inflammation (from 14:15):


Are you guys familiar with this point of view? And do you guys have an opinion about this?

He specifically points to the COX inhibitors, and points out that high dose fish oil is in fact not acting very different than a COX inhibitor. He says that AA and the action of COX on AA is crucial to resolving inflammation, and that inhibiting this process can make inflammation become chronic.

I guess that this doesn't necessarily interferes with Ray Peat's recommendations. He recommends against high dose fish oils. The anti inflammatory aspirin he recommends, is not a strong inhibitor of COX in vivo. And eating egg yolks on a daily basis would make it pretty impossible to become deficient in AA.

I'm aware of the idea that mead acid could replace the role of AA in the COX metabolism, but I think this argument is for most people purely theoretical. Because in the natural diet, where you consume non hydrogenated coconut oil, butter, seafood and egg yolks, it seems pretty much impossible to deplete your body from AA (or the other fatty acids that metabolise to AA).

So the question remains then, is the action of COX on AA crucial to resolving inflammation and could inhibiting this process make inflammation become chronic?

Tagging @haidut as he seems to have studied AA metabolism in detail. I have also emailed Ray Peat the same question.

I don't think chronic inflammation is benign, regardless of the cause. There is a reason aspirin prevents pretty much any cancer, CVD, or neurodegenerative disease. Short-term inflammation is vital for wound/bone healing but when it continues for too long it wreaks havoc. Keep in mind that inflammation = angiogenesis/VEGF and this pair has been implicated in virtually all chronic conditions (especially cancer).

 

[Maggiemccall]

There is a lot in the above video that Ray Peat would not agree with having listened to him for hours on youtube, but I would be interested in his reply, as he says , (and others), that there is no such thing as an essential fatty acid, in which case Chris's view of EPA surely is incorrect?? I know Ray Peat says that fish oil is highly toxic.

 

[General Orange]

I recently came across an article, about NSAID interfering with tissue regeneration via reducing prostaglandins, and so inhibits tendon-to-bone repair. link
"It turns out, though, that some of the big players in breaking down tissue, notably a class of hormone-like compounds called prostaglandins, are also big players in building up tissue."

But it seems that aspirin only interferes with healing in high dosage: "All doses of indomethacin appear to cause delayed bone healing, but aspirin only delays healing at levels approaching toxicity.16 "

 

[General Orange]

You dont just want to interfere with this inflammatory process , without adding in a modulating wound healing effect, like collagen synthesis enhancing effect that is seen with herbs like kukuma, centella asiatica, cissus quadrangularis. these affect soft tissue repair.
These herbs, they seem to also inhibit cox and PGE, and modulate AA, but they add in to the process a healing function, that I think has to do with the action of EZ water, that is exclusion zones of water around the cells that regulate what go's in and out. And these herbs carry molecules that are positive to the EZ water, can enter the cells and give positive effects, while modulating the inflammatory process.
Dr. Gerald Pollack and Structured Water Science

 

[PUFAsfree2001]

What matters is if you have Mead acid in your cells in the Sn-2 position, supposedly, and not what your diet is. Obviously, if you consume the usual high-PUFA oils then you're probably going to have AA in your cells, but if you have Mead acid in your cells rather than AA and you are only eating enough to survive then I'd guess those dietary FAs will be used for basic functions and the Mead acid will not be replaced by AA. Clearly, this is not the situation for most people. I went on a very low PUFA diet in early 2001, and noticed several significant changes, including a keloid on my shoulder, which was red and kept growing (slowly), lost the redness and shrunk to nearly nothing (took a year or so for that to happen). My skin dryness issues also resolved after several months (doesn't the "EFA" claim involve the opposite?). When I got cuts, they healed differently, and when I had a couple of Wisdom teeth pulled there was very little pain when the Novocaine wore off (I took two aspirins total, though the dentist said it would hurt a lot and gave me a prescription for powerful pain relief meds); I am not the kind of person who doesn't feel pain, so keep that in mind! There's a three part study of keloids and "EFAs" beginning here:

Keloids in rural black South Africans. Part 1: general overview and essential fatty acid hypotheses for keloid formation and prevention. - PubMed - NCBI

As Peat has pointed out, and as I discovered when I decided to research it for myself, the early "EFA" experiments only showed that a totally fat free diet appeared to be sub-optimal, especially in terms of skin condition. IMO, this is an incredible mistake made by "modern science," and the fact that nobody seems willing or able to correct it suggests one needs to be very careful when listening to advice, particularly about dietary changes.

 

[mujuro]

What matters is if you have Mead acid in your cells in the Sn-2 position, supposedly, and not what your diet is. Obviously, if you consume the usual high-PUFA oils then you're probably going to have AA in your cells, but if you have Mead acid in your cells rather than AA and you are only eating enough to survive then I'd guess those dietary FAs will be used for basic functions and the Mead acid will not be replaced by AA. Clearly, this is not the situation for most people. I went on a very low PUFA diet in early 2001, and noticed several significant changes, including a keloid on my shoulder, which was red and kept growing (slowly), lost the redness and shrunk to nearly nothing (took a year or so for that to happen). My skin dryness issues also resolved after several months (doesn't the "EFA" claim involve the opposite?). When I got cuts, they healed differently, and when I had a couple of Wisdom teeth pulled there was very little pain when the Novocaine wore off (I took two aspirins total, though the dentist said it would hurt a lot and gave me a prescription for powerful pain relief meds); I am not the kind of person who doesn't feel pain, so keep that in mind! There's a three part study of keloids and "EFAs" beginning here:

Keloids in rural black South Africans. Part 1: general overview and essential fatty acid hypotheses for keloid formation and prevention. - PubMed - NCBI

As Peat has pointed out, and as I discovered when I decided to research it for myself, the early "EFA" experiments only showed that a totally fat free diet appeared to be sub-optimal, especially in terms of skin condition. IMO, this is an incredible mistake made by "modern science," and the fact that nobody seems willing or able to correct it suggests one needs to be very careful when listening to advice, particularly about dietary changes.

What made you go PUFA-free in 2001? Were you familiar with Ray’s work back then?

 

[PUFAsfree2001]

I started a Ray Peat diet around 2001, with the main idea being to get AA out of my cells. My wounds heal better now, with no scarring. A large keloid I had since I was around 14 nearly disappeared after a couple years (in my early 50s now) as well. I used to post on a number of forums until around 2010, explaining what I've been doing and the effects I've seen, but after a while, both my experiences and the research I did led me to think that it's so obvious that it's best to have Mead acid in your cells rather than AA or an omega 3 (unless, perhaps, you are pregnant) that anyone who does one one hundredth of the research I've done would come to the same conclusion (unless they were quite biased against the notion to begin with). The only thing I think it's crucial to remember is that if you do make a significant change in diet, you might feel better or worse for a while (that AA is highly reactive so when it leaves your body you should be on an antioxidant-rich diet, IMO). Probably three months at absolute minimum is necessary before deciding a diet isn't for you (obviously if you experience anything severe you should see a doctor immediately).

What led me to Peat involved a wasting disorder I was dealing with. At 5'9" I had gone down to around 95 pounds (though I was always thin and my weight before it happened was around 125). Eventually, I figured out that I needed stomach acid supplementation (which it turned out was required for about 18 months). I was on a vegan diet for over a dozen years before the wasting began, so I didn't think that was the cause, but it could have been anything, such as eating too much oats (which I started doing not long before the wasting began). The doctors had no idea what was wrong, despite all the tests, and so I decided that I had to save myself, which led me to doing as much nutritional research as I could (and that led to Peat's work). I began the stomach acid supplements not long before going on the type of diet he suggests (though I don't eat organ meats and I do eat some grains, again, the main point being to get AA out of cells), and began to regain some weight by then.

 

[Cirion]

@PUFAsfree2001

How many grams of PUFA a day did you limit to?

 

[PUFAsfree2001]

@PUFAsfree2001

How many grams of PUFA a day did you limit to?

Crion, I don't concern myself with that at this point. At first, back in 2001, I ate plenty of butter, coconut oil, and dark chocolate as my major fat sources. I also ate no more than an egg a day and some cheese. Within several months I noticed the kinds of changes Peat has mentioned, such as the weird body odor that lasted a couple weeks or so. There were other changes, such as a keliod that continued to grown, since I was around 14 years old or younger, began to get whiter and smaller (and the itchiness was gone too). Now there is almost nothing remaining of it. After a couple years, I began to add items that have a little PUFA content, such as raw almonds, but no more than one or two a day, to make the diet more interesting and diverse. So, to follow what I did one would have to limit PUFA significantly for a few years, see the changes, then add some other things if desired. I think that so long as the PUFA content is low and there are plenty of SFAs, such as in coconut oil, mead acid should stay in place, and then one can avoid omega 3 rich foods (as I have done for nearly 20 years now) so as to avoid the potential hazards of such highly unsaturated fatty acids in the body.