Caffeine May Be More Evil Than You Think!

[lollipop]

I moderate liver function the same way. The above represent tell tale signs of good health. I will however say that we all react to caffeine differently. I burn through glycogen stores rather quickly still, and need adequate calories to fuel my coffee or caffeine pills, thyroid etc. I hate to say it as i know there is extremely limited scientific back up the argument behind fast/slow oxidizer, but i truly fit every description of a fast oxidizer. (Have always been thin, burn through caffeine, carbs quickly, am satiated by meat and salt etc.) Maybe i just don't consume enough calories still, who knows.

How many calories do you eat @Jsaute21? If you burn quickly that might be a “thing” needing more calories...

 

[Luckytype]

I did not use anything “official”, but personal observation:

*held glycogen better translated into needing less “snacks” in between meals.
*Better sleep and not waking up hungry, thus again better storage
*less reaction to coffee
*less sluggish

I moderate liver function the same way. The above represent tell tale signs of good health. I will however say that we all react to caffeine differently. I burn through glycogen stores rather quickly still, and need adequate calories to fuel my coffee or caffeine pills, thyroid etc. I hate to say it as i know there is extremely limited scientific back up the argument behind fast/slow oxidizer, but i truly fit every description of a fast oxidizer. (Have always been thin, burn through caffeine, carbs quickly, am satiated by meat and salt etc.) Maybe i just don't consume enough calories still, who knows.

Thanks you two

This is tough for me because coffee never really effects me(the liquid probably warms me), my sleep since childhood has always been lackluster, ive been sluggish for quite some time(prolactin high, thyroid low) but ive always wanted food upon waking.

 

[Cirion]

Through reading the experiences of many others, and my own experiences, it seems that to heal the liver you need to do:

High fat (especially saturated fats), Low PUFA (as much as you can on high fat diet), low-moderate protein, with gelatin as some of that protein if you can as well as some BCAA's, rest of calories from carbs (ideally sugar in the form of Fructose and/or Sucrose). On high fat, probably need to keep protein low-ish so you can still manage to have a decent Carb-Protein ratio of around 3:1, or at the very least 2:1, but I do better with higher C:P ratios. Solid foods wherever possible, ideal to cut out all liquid calories and drink minimal water. Interestingly enough, most of this seems to correspond with some research on optimal macronutrients that show High Carb/Protein ratios, High saturated fat / monounsaturated fat diet, Low PUFA results in maximal hormonal health. Always nice to see that anecdotal stories often back up the science.

I suspect High cholesterol is also needed for optimal health, which often accompanies high fat. I know Peat is not a fan of eating lots of eggs, but eggs are the best source of dietary cholesterol pretty much, so the pros may offset some of the cons. I suspect this because when I did Keto, I felt really good when I had lots of eggs and beef and cheese just about every day, and also, with my limited science knowledge, doesn't cholesterol convert to testosterone ultimately?

This seems to be the trick in almost all of the Peat success stories I have seen. Some people do well on super high carb/sugar, but I think that probably only applies to people who have been chronically low carb for a very long time and/or happen to already have a healthy liver.

This is what I'll be doing now. My sugar intake was getting absolutely stupid, and my waistline was increasing on very high carb (as high as 1000g sugar a day, and can already tell I'm gaining fat, so I'm stopping before it gets out of hand).

 

[Jsaute21]

How many calories do you eat @Jsaute21? If you burn quickly that might be a “thing” needing more calories...

I probably don't eat enough calories though i eat far more than i used to when i was orthorexic. My day typically looks like:

2 Cups coffee with Cream & 4/5 TBSP Sugar.

2 Hours later: 2-3 corn tortillas, one egg, 2 pieces of reduced fat string cheese with 2-3 cups OJ and caffeine pill/diamant, occasionally small nibble of t3.

4-5 hours later: 2-3 corn tortillas, 2 mexican cokes.

3 Hours later: glass of milk and chocolate, with small nibble of t3.

2-3 hours later: 8 OZ Meat with potatoes or white rice.

Before Bed: 1-2 servings of ice cream over milk and some t3/t4 combo.

 

[lollipop]

I probably don't eat enough calories though i eat far more than i used to when i was orthorexic. My day typically looks like:

2 Cups coffee with Cream & 4/5 TBSP Sugar.

2 Hours later: 2-3 corn tortillas, one egg, 2 pieces of reduced fat string cheese with 2-3 cups OJ and caffeine pill/diamant, occasionally small nibble of t3.

4-5 hours later: 2-3 corn tortillas, 2 mexican cokes.

3 Hours later: glass of milk and chocolate, with small nibble of t3.

2-3 hours later: 8 OZ Meat with potatoes or white rice.

Before Bed: 1-2 servings of ice cream over milk and some t3/t4 combo.

Looks good @Jsaute21 - what about a solid lunch? Looking at your schedule I started feeling hungry for a good solid lunch - lol...

 

[Milena]

What diags can we use as far as blood tests to get a solid idea here regarding liver function?

Some doctor-aimed information for interpretation of blood panels wrt liver function. Just a starter for your search.
"Interpreting test results
The BSG guidelines3 include information on a range of different liver blood tests, providing guidance on how test results should be interpreted and making recommendations for further investigations that may be appropriate.

Bilirubin
Most laboratories report total bilirubin, which will be raised by an elevation of either the conjugated or the unconjugated form. In adults, the most likely cause of an isolated raised unconjugated bilirubin, once haemolysis has been excluded, is Gilbert’s syndrome—an inherited metabolic disorder characterised by impaired conjugation, which is not associated with liver disease.3 Raised conjugated bilirubin is seen in obstruction of the hepatobiliary system or in parenchymal liver disease, such as hepatitis from any cause or advanced cirrhosis.3

Interpretation of hyperbilirubinaemia in neonates and infants requires specialist support because of the risk of kernicterus and the need to diagnose with urgency conditions such as biliary atresia.8

Albumin
Albumin is a protein synthesised by the liver that can serve as a marker of synthetic liver function. Albumin concentration may, however, be reduced in other clinical situations, including sepsis, systemic inflammatory disorders, nephrotic syndrome, malabsorption, and gastrointestinal protein loss.3

Alkaline phosphatase
Alkaline phosphatase (ALP) is predominantly a liver enzyme but is also found in bone and in smaller quantities in the intestines, kidneys, and white blood cells. Levels of ALP are higher in childhood and in pregnancy, where it is associated with bone growth and placental production, respectively.3Consequently, pathologically increased levels of ALP may be found not only in cholestatic liver disease (e.g. common bile duct obstruction, intrahepatic duct obstruction [including by metastases], primary biliary cholangitis, primary sclerosing cholangitis, and drug-induced cholestasis) but also in bone disease (metastatic bone disease, vitamin D deficiency, Paget’s disease, and bone fractures). Raised ALP may also result from cholestasis caused by hepatic congestion due to right-sided heart failure.3

If ALP is elevated in isolation, measurement of GGT (see below) can help to provide some indication as to whether or not the origin is hepatic, and, if doubt remains, electrophoresis can be used to differentiate hepatic from non-hepatic ALP.3

Aspartate aminotransferase and alanine aminotransferase
Elevated levels of aspartate aminotransferase (AST) and alanine aminotransferase (ALT) are the most common abnormalities seen in liver blood tests. Both AST and ALT are enzymes present in hepatocytes that are released into the blood following hepatocyte injury or death.3 Alanine aminotransferase is present at low concentrations in non-hepatic tissue and elevations that are not liver-related are uncommon. In contrast, AST is present in cardiac, smooth, and skeletal muscle and may be elevated in myocardial infarction or myositis. Although AST is not as liver-specific as ALT, it may be a more sensitive indicator of liver cell injury.3

In children, creatine kinase measurement may help to determine whether an isolated rise in either of these two enzymes is due to an underlying skeletal muscle disorder, such as muscular dystrophy.3

Gamma-glutamyltransferase
Abundant in the liver and also present in the intestines, kidneys, pancreas, and prostate, but not in bone, GGT can be useful in determining whether elevated ALP is of bone or liver origin. Levels of GGT may be elevated by factors that are not liver-related, including obesity, excess alcohol consumption, and certain drugs. In spite of this low specificity, GGT is one of the best predictors of mortality in liver disease.3

As ALP is not a reliable indicator in children, GGT can be used to establish the likelihood of biliary disease, for example congenital abnormalities of the biliary tract and genetic disorders of bile metabolism.3

Coagulation tests
Prothrombin time (PT) and international normalised ratio (INR) are measures of blood clotting. Clotting factors are synthesised in the liver and, when there is significant liver damage (usually >70% loss of synthetic function), their production is reduced, which may be demonstrated by prolonged PT or INR. Prolonged PT or INR can, therefore, indicate acute or chronic liver dysfunction, but can also be caused by vitamin K deficiency in fat malabsorption and chronic cholestasis.3

Platelets
Platelet reduction is an indicator of advanced liver disease, although platelets may be reduced in a wide variety of medical conditions. In liver morbidity, platelet reduction is associated with splenic enlargement secondary to portal hypertension with consequent platelet sequestration; a reduction in thrombopoietin levels; and reduced platelet production.3"

 

[Jsaute21]

Looks good @Jsaute21 - what about a solid lunch? Looking at your schedule I started feeling hungry for a good solid lunch - lol...

Haha you and my fiance would get along. She thinks my lunch is nowhere enough food or nutritious enough. I should start making double of my dinner and just taking left overs to work with me.

 

[lollipop]

Haha you and my fiance would get along. She thinks my lunch is nowhere enough food or nutritious enough. I should start making double of my dinner and just taking left overs to work with me.

YES! I agree

 

[DaveFoster]

If you aren't advising, even implicitly, the use phenibut, why bring it up almost out of nowhere in the first place, and take the time and effort to post supporting studies? It looks exactly like you were recommending phenibut as a superior alternative to caffeine.

My reference to phenibut supported my argument for low dopamine and GABA as causal factors in mental illness.

Other safer ways to increase dopamine's effects beyond dopamine agonists include caffeine, aspirin, thyroid hormone and other "stimulating" substances, where gabergic (and also anti-glutamergic) drugs include niacinamide, thiamine, biotin, tianeptine, lithium, l-theanine, glycine, vitamin E and of course progesterone.

Many drugs with anti-epileptic properties also lower glutamate, so lithium and progesterone (as mentioned,) along with valproic acid (Depakote), lamotrigine (Lamictal) and so on.

 

[Xisca]

Problem is, I seem to be hyper sensitive to caffeine, and quickly crash energy wise from it,

Milena answer will help you!
Yes look at liver and also adrenals before even thyroid.
A hair mineral analysis helped me a lot to understand my metabolism, and also the organic acid test from Genova.

 

[Cirion]

@Cirion
When I first arrived here, I tried the basics - sugar, milk, OJ, coffee and had a similar intolerance even with 4 sugars in each. I posted a few questions and was advised to look at my liver function as tolerance to coffee is used as a marker of sugar metabolism. My temperatures were low and I was looking at raising my metabolism. Drinking coffee was raising my metabolism but by raising my stress hormones, completely the wrong way to heal myself,
So, I have focused for the last year on my liver and can now drink two to three strong coffees a day without any problems of stress. I still don't drink it late.
My approach to liver health was to read the forum extensively and eat moderately (I could put weight on @1600 a day) with maximum nutrition, low PUFA, gelatin in the form of hydrolysed collagen, with protein with every sugar meal. I stopped all B6 and aspirin but am just starting back as my doc says my liver function has improved.I still do a lot of OJ and milk.
Look to your liver,,,

I eat plenty (as in, LOTS), 4000-6000 calories a day, and a little miffed because while I'm gaining weight, I'm still hungry a lot and have no choice but to eat. This is especially a problem at night for me, since my glucose stores last me 4 hrs at best, and never the whole night, even with a sizeable dinner of 1500+ calories.

I thought RP said that if you're hungry you should eat, period? Otherwise you cause a stress response, and hurt your metabolism further. How did you do that with only 1600 calories?? That's not that much, even for women?

I guess I don't see a clear answer here, other than keep doing what I'm doing? I don't wanna become super chubby before I cure it though lol, but as I say, if I force myself to stop eating after a certain amount, I'm just gonna get a stress response which undermines all my work.

Milena answer will help you!
Yes look at liver and also adrenals before even thyroid.
A hair mineral analysis helped me a lot to understand my metabolism, and also the organic acid test from Genova.

I honestly didn't necessarily understand which aspect helped the liver, and I don't understand how the limited calories in particular helped?

Other than that, I guess just the standard "avoid pufa, eat sugar, eat saturated fats, etc.." and just stay the course until I'm better?

 

[YourUniverse]

My reference to phenibut supported my argument for low dopamine and GABA as causal factors in mental illness.

Other safer ways to increase dopamine's effects beyond dopamine agonists include caffeine, aspirin, thyroid hormone and other "stimulating" substances, where gabergic (and also anti-glutamergic) drugs include niacinamide, thiamine, biotin, tianeptine, lithium, l-theanine, glycine, vitamin E and of course progesterone.

Many drugs with anti-epileptic properties also lower glutamate, so lithium and progesterone (as mentioned,) along with valproic acid (Depakote), lamotrigine (Lamictal) and so on.

Off-topic slightly, but: do you know if you can deplete brain glutamate, like you can deplete tissue PUFA?

 

[DaveFoster]

Off-topic slightly, but: do you know if you can deplete brain glutamate, like you can deplete tissue PUFA?

You could restrict glutamine intake, but that would probably have deleterious effects on GABA as well.

Eicosanoids potentiate the excitotoxicity of glutamate, but keeping inflammation (and estrogen) low should minimize any problems.

 

[YourUniverse]

You could restrict glutamine intake, but that would probably have deleterious effects on GABA as well.

Eicosanoids potentiate the excitotoxicity of glutamate, but keeping inflammation (and estrogen) low should minimize any problems.

Thanks Mr. Foster!

 

[Milena]

I eat plenty (as in, LOTS), 4000-6000 calories a day, and a little miffed because while I'm gaining weight, I'm still hungry a lot and have no choice but to eat. This is especially a problem at night for me, since my glucose stores last me 4 hrs at best, and never the whole night, even with a sizeable dinner of 1500+ calories.

Poor liver function- low glucose storage ability apparently. eat protein with sugar at every meal. Try keeping a 'night drink' available for sipping when you wake in the night and first thing in the morning - OJ, a pinch of salt and tablespoon of hydroylsate collagen for instance. With that amount of cals. I guess you could eat every 4 hours and avoid the stress response; slow absorb foods at night might help.

I thought RP said that if you're hungry you should eat, period? Otherwise you cause a stress response, and hurt your metabolism further. How did you do that with only 1600 calories?? That's not that much, even for women?

I know it's not much; I reported it to show you how broken my metabolism was. I eat more than this and am getting enormous. every now an then I reduce my calorie intake and drink a little more coffee (with lots of sugar and gelatin). I've always been cold if I don't move unless at night when my stress response works appropriately and I wake warm even in a cold room. I took my temp (twice over a couple of hours, just now. 36.5C. It used to be in the low 35s. That was my initial goal here, to raise my temps. It has taken AGES but seems to be working.

I guess I don't see a clear answer here, other than keep doing what I'm doing? I don't wanna become super chubby before I cure it though lol, but as I say, if I force myself to stop eating after a certain amount, I'm just gonna get a stress response which undermines all my work.

See above. Study here for your circumstances. I'm post-menapausal.

I honestly didn't necessarily understand which aspect helped the liver, and I don't understand how the limited calories in particular helped?

Liver see above. I realised Peat does not really address losing weight. I just noted for you that I had such a low metabolism that I cannot eat more than 1600 calories without increasing mass. There is a conundrum - eat to keep stress low but weight most likely, holds PUFA. I'm dancing around this atm focusing on giving my liver least to store (i.e. low PUFA so I can deplete my fat liver stores) and eating small meals more regularly. Read the forum for solutions to your particular circumstances; Peating is not a regime but a complicated set of hints and tips.I have just started with some Mitolipin from Idealabs but suggest you look at food and timings and study before implementing anything other than aspirin and B6 and making sure I get my ADE&K vitamins.

Other than that, I guess just the standard "avoid pufa, eat sugar, eat saturated fats, etc.." and just stay the course until I'm better?

Seems so. It's the long haul.

 

[Xisca]

@Cirion I could never stabilise my appetite nor sleep. The more sugar or starch resulted in getting mad at food. I could change this only with super high protein. I am not really keto.

Take care of your stomach acid if you cannot handle meat well and get it upward!

 

[Cirion]

@Cirion I could never stabilise my appetite nor sleep. The more sugar or starch resulted in getting mad at food. I could change this only with super high protein. I am not really keto.

Take care of your stomach acid if you cannot handle meat well and get it upward!

I'm starting to do a little better these days. Not perfect, but better. My weight actually has started to slowly come back down on 4500-5000 calories a day (that's insane, that means I may be in fact burning over 5000 a day now lol! My metabolism must be burning HOT now ). In fact I sometimes find myself sweating at night when the thermostat is 65 deg F lol. I have also found that increasing protein a tad helps with appetite. In fact, Haidut posted a study saying high protein helps reverse insulin resistance anyhow, so there's that. I am now doing the same. I tend to get like 250+g protein a day now. 150 or less just was not enough for hunger. I am truly amazed RP can survive on only 100 a day.

I think my ideal ratio of protein-carb-fat may be 20%-60%-20%. This is working a lot better for me than 10-80-10 did.

 

[Xisca]

With the metabolism you describe I would slowly increase proteins to 40%!

 

[Cirion]

With the metabolism you describe I would slowly increase proteins to 40%!

Just curious, what makes you say that? It's true Haidut's posted study suggests going as high as 35% protein... but...

My concern with this is that it will necessarily decrease my carbohydrate intake significantly, such that I am no longer at a 3:1 carb:protein ratio and not even a 2:1 ratio anymore. I don't feel good if my carbs are low. Also this would probably make me decrease fat intake to 10% or less. I don't believe ultra low fat is optimal, at least not for me.

Plus 400g protein just seems excessive to me lol. Most competitive bodybuilders don't even eat that much!! haha

As for stomach acid I'm trying to improve that. I have apple cider vinegar every day now.

 

[Xisca]

This is the ratio suggested for slow oxidizers in hair testing.
Or do an organic acid test to check how you do with sugar metabolism. Not storing enough glycogene for the night is not normal and suggest roller coaster and can get better with more proteins for dinner.

Eating fruits or any carb and fat for dinner gives me Gerd at night for example. I Stopped vinegar for bitter greens with lemon and olive oil in the morning. It triggers acid forming. Bitter taste does this.