Zinc Supplements - Clarification On Ray's Comment

[Amazoniac]

Zinc gluconate is next to useless. Studies have shown its effect on zinc levels similar to placebo, and personally i found it to be the case.

5mg of zinc picolinate has a greater effect for me than 100mg of gluconate.

Tryptophan gives rise to a wide array of metabolites involved in a variety of aspects of normal nutrition and metabolism. For example, picolinic acid, a product of TRP's oxidative metabolism, is involved in normal intestinal absorption of zinc.

Taking zinc picolinate could perhaps spare niacin, as it negates the need for picolinate production.

Travisord made an elegant connection between tryptophan deficiency leading to zinc deficiency which in turn manifests as pellagrous lesions despite adequate intake of other nutrients. In experiments, gelatin is used to induce a tryptophan deficiency quite effectively. Search for '"tryptophan depletion" gelatin'. So for those that eat it in excess or have signs of protein deficiency, zinc gluconate might not work and this might explain it.
__
Dietary Factors Influencing Zinc Absorption

"It is likely that phosphorylated serine and threonine residues on partially undigested casein subunits bind zinc and reduce zinc bioavailability in a manner similar to what has been shown for iron (Hegenauer et al. 1979, Hurrell et al. 1989)."​

 

[Amazoniac]

The reason why this thread was created was to question Ray's assertion that zinc supplements can oxidize other nutrients from a meal and cause problems. Picolinic acid given alone can perhaps be a chelator of zinc, however when it's already bound to zinc, I don't know if it's good to replete the body but at least it should leave no possibility for interaction with other nutrients.

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/146/4/858S.full
"Metabolites that bind zinc tenaciously, such as picolinate, histidine, and cysteine, may also increase urinary zinc excretion (1, 219)."

Zinc - Dietary Reference Intakes for Vitamin A, Vitamin K, Arsenic, Boron, Chromium, Copper, Iodine, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Nickel, Silicon, Vanadium, and Zinc - NCBI Bookshelf
"Dietary phosphorus-containing salts over an extensive intake range have not been shown to influence zinc balance (Greger and Snedeker, 1980; Spencer et al., 1984). Other dietary sources of phosphorus include phytate and phosphorus-rich proteins, for example, milk casein and nucleic acids, all of which bind zinc tenaciously and decrease zinc absorption."

 

[Tzheng2012]

Travisord made an elegant connection between tryptophan deficiency leading to zinc deficiency which in turn manifests as pellagrous lesions despite adequate intake of other nutrients. In experiments, gelatin is used to induce a tryptophan deficiency quite effectively. Search for '"tryptophan depletion" gelatin'. So for those that eat it in excess or have signs of protein deficiency, zinc gluconate might not work and this might explain it.
__
Dietary Factors Influencing Zinc Absorption

"It is likely that phosphorylated serine and threonine residues on partially undigested casein subunits bind zinc and reduce zinc bioavailability in a manner similar to what has been shown for iron (Hegenauer et al. 1979, Hurrell et al. 1989)."​

Hmm so if we dont get much protein per day (less than 40g) would it not be wise to supplement gelatin for more protein because it can induce a tryptophan deficiency, which, are you saying is NOT good? So wed want low tryptophan diet but not a tryptophan deficient diet?

The reason why this thread was created was to question Ray's assertion that zinc supplements can oxidize other nutrients from a meal and cause problems. Picolinic acid given alone can perhaps be a chelator of zinc, however when it's already bound to zinc, I don't know if it's good to replete the body but at least it should leave no possibility for interaction with other nutrients.

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/146/4/858S.full
"Metabolites that bind zinc tenaciously, such as picolinate, histidine, and cysteine, may also increase urinary zinc excretion (1, 219)."

Zinc - Dietary Reference Intakes for Vitamin A, Vitamin K, Arsenic, Boron, Chromium, Copper, Iodine, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Nickel, Silicon, Vanadium, and Zinc - NCBI Bookshelf
"Dietary phosphorus-containing salts over an extensive intake range have not been shown to influence zinc balance (Greger and Snedeker, 1980; Spencer et al., 1984). Other dietary sources of phosphorus include phytate and phosphorus-rich proteins, for example, milk casein and nucleic acids, all of which bind zinc tenaciously and decrease zinc absorption."

I was going to supplement naked brand cow casein, but it may not be good if your low on zinc?

 

[Amazoniac]

So we want low tryptophan diet but not a tryptophan deficient diet

I think so.

I was going to supplement naked brand cow casein, but it may not be good if your low on zinc?

Zinc is better retained than copper for example. From what I read, severe deficiency is rare but mild is common; in case you need it, occasional supplementation will do. Casein should not be a big deal. In a similar manner to magnesium, if a bit of supplementation is not able to help, there's probably something else that needs to be improved, and trying to correct the issue directly is not the solution and has some inconveniences such as leading to other imbalances over time, especially in the case of trace minerals.
I think specialists (such as exclusive zinc researchers) have a tendency to prove that their investment is worth, so they can exaggerate on the needs and prevalence of deficiencies.

 

[Mito]

Comparative absorption of zinc picolinate, zinc citrate and zinc gluconate in humans (Supported by GNC)

Chris Masterjohn’s interpretation of that study:

When you look at supplements, the World Health Organization recommends using sulfate, acetate, or gluconate because they’ve been the most well-studied in the context of repleting zinc deficiencies, especially in children with diarrhea. There’s pretty good science that zinc citrate is just as absorbable, and it’s pretty clear that zinc oxide, at least in the form of a supplement taken away from a meal, is very poorly bioavailable relative to the others. So I would feel comfortable using sulfate, acetate, gluconate, or citrate. I would not use oxide.

I would also not use picolinate. I’ve seen claims out there that zinc picolinate is the superior form. The only evidence I could find for that is that zinc picolinate was more effective at increasing hair and red blood cell zinc relative to other more well-studied forms of zinc. It also doubled the urinary excretion of zinc, and zinc deficiency has been produced in animals by feeding them picolinate without the zinc. So I think it’s quite likely that zinc picolinate is gonna lead to increased urinary losses.

There are some studies showing that zinc picolinate was beneficial for reversing impairments in the sense of smell and taste. But none of those studies compared it to any other forms of zinc, and there’s no studies that actually show that it’s superior at increasing plasma zinc, which is the ideal marker of zinc status, or that it’s superior at preventing any of the well-studied signs of deficiency, like immune system health and skin problems and so on. So I would avoid zinc picolinate, as well.

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/03/04/manage-zinc-status/

 

[Amazoniac]

Chris Masterjohn’s interpretation of that study:

When you look at supplements, the World Health Organization recommends using sulfate, acetate, or gluconate because they’ve been the most well-studied in the context of repleting zinc deficiencies, especially in children with diarrhea. There’s pretty good science that zinc citrate is just as absorbable, and it’s pretty clear that zinc oxide, at least in the form of a supplement taken away from a meal, is very poorly bioavailable relative to the others. So I would feel comfortable using sulfate, acetate, gluconate, or citrate. I would not use oxide.

I would also not use picolinate. I’ve seen claims out there that zinc picolinate is the superior form. The only evidence I could find for that is that zinc picolinate was more effective at increasing hair and red blood cell zinc relative to other more well-studied forms of zinc. It also doubled the urinary excretion of zinc, and zinc deficiency has been produced in animals by feeding them picolinate without the zinc. So I think it’s quite likely that zinc picolinate is gonna lead to increased urinary losses.

There are some studies showing that zinc picolinate was beneficial for reversing impairments in the sense of smell and taste. But none of those studies compared it to any other forms of zinc, and there’s no studies that actually show that it’s superior at increasing plasma zinc, which is the ideal marker of zinc status, or that it’s superior at preventing any of the well-studied signs of deficiency, like immune system health and skin problems and so on. So I would avoid zinc picolinate, as well.

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/03/04/manage-zinc-status/

The picolinic acid issue has been discussed on the previous pages. But here's that study:
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...zinc-citrate-and-zinc-gluconate-in-humans.pdf

 

[Amazoniac]

http://www.traceelements.com/Docs/The Nutritional Relationships of Selenium.pdf

More recent investigations have confirmed the zinc-selenium antagonism.21

If you ever experience a mild burning sensation from zinc supplements and for some reason need to supplement it, a small amount of selenium along should help if not take care of it completely.

- Zinc-selenium interaction in the rat

"Combined administration of zinc and selenium resulted in an enhanced selenium retention in the brain, spleen, kidneys, blood, lungs, and heart. A selenium-induced increase in the concentration of zinc was noted in the bowels, blood, liver, kidneys, spleen, brain, and lungs.

The effects of the zinc/selenium interaction were visible especially in the lowered level of excretion of these elements. Zinc induced a decrease in the excretion of selenium in urine, with no concomitant changes in the excretion in feces. However, a visible decrease in the excretion of zinc in the feces was observed in the presence of selenium.

The present results indicate an occurrence of clear-cut interaction effects between zinc and selenium administered simultaneously in the rat."​

- The Effect of Zinc and Selenium Supplementation Mode on Their Bioavailability in the Rat Prostate. Should Administration Be Joint or Separate?

"A review of recent findings by Maret (2000) confirmed selenium compounds as oxidants of metallothionein in vivo, which may act to release zinc from metallothionein, and possibly stimulate thionein synthesis via the zinc-mediated mechanism [22]. The mechanism of the reaction was suggested to proceed through an activated selenenyl sulphide (R-Se-S-G) intermediate which, in turn, oxidizes the zinc-thiolate cluster of metallothionein to form R-Se-S-MT with the concomitant release of zinc during oxidation. Selenium compounds also catalyze the release of zinc from metallothionein in peroxidation and thiol/disulfide-interchange reactions [45]. Hence, one of the aims of our study was to examine the potential interactions between zinc and selenium administered jointly or separately on induction of MTs in the liver and prostate, and thus on the bioavailability these two elements for the prostate, especially the ventral lobe, because zinc levels in this lobe decrease with age [46]."

[45] Zinc, metallothioneins and longevity: interrelationships with niacin and selenium. - PubMed - NCBI
"Selenium provokes zinc release by Metallothioneins (MT), via reduction of glutathione peroxidase. This fact is crucial in ageing because high MT may be unable to release zinc with subsequent low intracellular free zinc ion availability for immune efficiency, metabolic harmony and antioxidant activity."​

"Based on the potential biochemical implications of zinc + selenium application on metallothionein/thionein status discussed above, our results seem to confirm that the elevated metallothionein levels induced by zinc can be expected in different organs following zinc + selenium supplementation. Liver MTs concentration was almost two–fold higher in rats receiving zinc with selenium than in those receiving zinc alone, and no significant changes in MTs level were observed until the end of their administration."

"The liver of rats receiving zinc + selenium demonstrated both a significant increase in zinc level and greater MT concentration. In these two groups (Zn + Se and Zn + SeMet) the increase in zinc concentration was found after one month of supplementation, compared to controls. These results indicate that selenium administered jointly with zinc induced a significant increase in liver zinc concentration, most likely due to secondary MTs induction by zinc released from MTs by interaction with selenium, which is in accordance with Maret (2000), as noted earlier [22]. A similar zinc-selenium interaction demonstrated by an elevated zinc concentration was earlier evidenced by Chmielnicka et al. (1988) in rats given both elements in a single dose [49]. The study also demonstrated that selenium increased zinc concentration in the liver and other organs, but the prostate was not investigated [49]."

@Obi of the wans (the main focus of the experiment was on prostate, it might interest you)​

 

[Zpol]

What do you all think about a whole-food derived Zinc supplement (see below); would this type of formulation negate the negative effects mentioned in this thread?
I have Celiac and my villi have not improved after years of Gluten Free. Because of this I do not absorb zinc like other people.

@Ella You've mentioned in another thread the importance of zinc copper balance. My doctor says "She has high oxidative stress and copper to zinc elevated ratio" and I imagine she will put me on a zinc supplement, but now I'm not sure if I need to take a copper supplement with it. Also, you seem quite familiar with oysters, if one can only get canned, do you think it's still worth it to eat them? I'm mainly concerned with the aluminium possibly getting absorbed into them.

Like this one:

NurtiGold Zinc Gold
Organic, Whole-Food Zinc from Sprouted Blend
Zinc is an essential mineral that is involved in numerous aspects of cellular metabolism. It is required for the catalytic activity of almost one hundred enzymes, and supports immune function, protein synthesis, and wound healing. Zinc plays an especially important role in supporting normal growth and development during pregnancy, childhood, and adolescence.

A daily intake of zinc is required to maintain a steady state because the body has no specialized zinc storage system. The best dietary sources of zinc are animal proteins, including beef, pork, and lamb, but fish, nuts, whole grains, legumes, and yeast also contain some zinc.Plant-sourced zinc in supplements is a gentler and more nourishing alternative to synthetic zinc supplements that can sometimes have a metallic aftertaste.

Most commercially available zinc supplements are available as synthetic isolates (lab-created); amino acid chelates (minerals bound to amino acids for enhanced bioavailability); or whole-food/food-sourced nutrients (sourced from organic food sources).

Product Highlights

• Whole-food source of zinc
• From organic, sprouted blend
• Gentle on the stomach
• No metallic aftertaste
• Non-GMO Project verified
• Certified organic
• Soy-free / Gluten-free
• No harmful additives
• No magnesium stearate
• No residual solvents
• No residual pesticides
• Certified kosher and vegan

View Certificate of Analysis​

 

[Ella]

"She has high oxidative stress and copper to zinc elevated ratio"

Do you know what your ratio is? Celiac's is a real concern with malabsorption of minerals.
Have you been following a protocol to rehabilitate the gut lining. I don't think it is impossible to get zinc from your diet being Celiac.

I worked on a case where the gentleman had been poisoned by zinc + B6. He has Celiac and all his alternative MDs (there were many over the course of his illness) convinced him due to his MFTHR SNP and Celiac's he needed Zinc and B6. He kept asking me, "why do you say everything opposite to everyone else." My response was "why did he persist in seeing me?" It got to the point, where he employed a marriage counsellor, to help his wife accept what I was asking him to do. Which was simple, get rid of all the supplements and stick to the diet. He was in a terrible state, always 1 step away from hospital emergency room and his marriage was heading for divorce.

My major concern with supplements especially, if you have malabsorption issues, is the same as junk foods. If you are not absorbing them and your cells are not using them, then they feed gut organisms. On the same principle we need to restrict iron from bacteria to inhibit them becoming virulent, we also want to restrict organisms from sequestering zinc and copper and there is probably a whole suit of other minerals and nutrients.

I would not use the picinolate form. There is some toxicity associated with it, but I can't recall off the top of me head. We are moving away from it. The zinc sulphate sounds a reasonable option but still it worries me what organisms people are breeding. In the brewing industry zinc sulphate is used to increased the activation of yeast cells from their slumber and increase their growth rate to consume sugars and starch to make alcohol. So you could inadvertently create a micro-brewery in your gut and colon.

This is precisely, the situation the gentleman had created for himself. He was producing so much gas, that it was excruciating. He was no longer able to work. We are still in our infancy in understanding the synergistic and adverse relationship between host and organism.

familiar with oysters, if one can only get canned, do you think it's still worth it to eat them? I'm mainly concerned with the aluminium possibly getting absorbed into them.

Females tend to accumulate more copper because of the estrogen issue primarily and also they tend to less likely favour foods that are rich in zinc like red meat, shellfish, liver etc.

My focus would be on making foods like red meat more digestible and using gelatin to aid proper digestion.

Boiling meat in dishes like soups, stews and casseroles. Liver is very easy to digest as long as you don't over cook it. It makes a lovely pate which you can eat throughout the day to bump up your nutrients. Add homemade gelatin to keep it nice and moist. Adding more easy to absorb minerals.

I would include raw egg yolk unless you have a permeable gut lining. Raw yolk is less problematic than cooked. Even though it is not high in zinc, it still can contribute around 0.5 - >1 mg of zinc.

Dairy is also excellent to include if you don't have issues with it. My Celiac gentleman had been con-vinced milk and dairy were evil and as a Celiac he would not be able to digest it. Honestly, milk may have saved his life as there was very little he could digest. It turned out he digested milk extremely well.

I advocate women's diets (due to estrogen) be higher in seafood like oysters, prawns, mussels, calamari etc. I know it can be expensive however, if you were to cut out all the junk, then at least everything you eat is nutrient dense and requires less food rather than more.

If tinned oysters is all you can get, I would not worry too much about the aluminium unless you also tested high in aluminium. I would still eat them if I had no other options as the benefits outweigh the risks. I would include herbal tea like horsetail, rich in silica, bamboo shoots/tea and leafy greens if aluminium is of concern.

Ray mentioned he carries tinned oysters with him when traveling. You do with what you can, when there are no better options.

If I was going to supplement, then I would use something like 1mg of zinc glycinate with each protein rich meal. This way you are less likely to upset the balance of other minerals. If you are low in zinc, then you are likely to be low in iron and possibly more. Zinc competes with iron in the same way it does with copper. Even though your ratio maybe high ; is your copper in the healthy range? You can still be low in copper. Celiac's tend be low in many minerals, so it is really important to work on improving absorption and the health of the gut and colon. Not all Celiac's have damaged villi and yes taking gluten out does not fix the problem. It takes much effort and diligence in restoring the gut. The first step is to keep junk out because what we are breeding in our guts thus far, is not good.

I would concentrate in getting the food in, spread across the day, smaller more frequent meals. Remember, noon time is when digestive strength is stronger compared to any other time of the day.

Apologies; this message was sent before completion. I hope I fix it so it makes sense.

 

[Zpol]

Do you know what your ratio is? Celiac's is a real concern with malabsorption of minerals.
Have you been following a protocol to habilitate the gut lining. I don't think it is impossible to get zinc from your diet being Celiac.

These are my labs from last week:
Ceruloplasmin, S - 29.6 mg/dL ( standard range 20.0 - 51.0 mg/dL)
COPPER,SERUM - 1.28 mcg/mL (standard range0.75 - 1.45 mcg/mL)
ZINC,S - 0.97 mcg/mL (standard range0.66 - 1.10 mcg/mL)

I know ceruloplasmin and serum copper are relevant to the copper side of the ratio, but I don't know how to determine the actual ratio based on the three different results.

I don't have a specific protocol aside from eating easily digestible foods, and trying to get quality high nutrient foods in every meal (in addition to all other RP dietary suggestions). When I research how to repair the villi I find several different supplements help (which I can't possibly take them all and most are plain dangerous), also bone broth (which even at 2 cups a day doesn't help). From what I've gathered, I need to be getting enough zinc for any of these other methods to help, Magnesium also.

That is an interesting story about the man with Celiac! I have been actively trying to get off all supplements. Problem is my doctor see's my blood work and keeps telling me to take them. I use cronometer to track but even when I consistently get 100% of vitamins and minerals, my blood labs say I'm deficient. So I'm in a vicious circle it seems... take the supp's to treat the deficiencies in order to heal the guts, take more supp's to treat the bacterial overgrowth infections and retro-viruses, then end up taking too many supp's, quit them and up back at square one.

So I've got to find a way to heal the villi so that I can absorb these nutrients from foods like a normal person.

What do think about the canned oysters? I live in the middle of the USA, there's no fresh sources around here. All the frozen shellfish that I can find are from China (probably grown in cesspools). I have evidence of too much aluminium in my blood labs so I've been hesitant to eat foods from cans, but I wonder if I drain and rinse them if they will be okay.

Thank you for any tips you can contribute! I have so much to learn yet.

 

[Ella]

@Zpol, perhaps I am missing something (it is afterall really early in the morning). but I don't see any issues with your levels. They are clearly in the range. Why does your doctor think you are not absorbing zinc?? If these levels are in the serum, then clearly you are absorbing them.

Frankly, I don't see such good levels like these even in people that aren't Celiac!!

Obviously, keep doing what you are doing because you ARE absorbing.

What we don't know and serum is not a good indicator; is how much is in the tissues. A hair tissue mineral analysis may give a better idea and this is where we have more research available with ratio of zn/cu.

 

[Ella]

Gee, hard to believe in a Country like the USA, you only have access to cheap imports. Australia must be extremely lucky to have the abundance of seafood we have. I don't know where current situation with exports to the USA from Australia stand. I guess all of our exports are going to Japan and the wealthy Chinese.

I would stay away from seafood from China. Aluminium is one thing but some of the chemicals are way too risky.

Again, aluminium may not be an issue if you have plenty of silica (silicon) in the diet. Please don't think you need to supplement silica because it is toxic. It is readily available in fruits, vegetables, herbs and grains. Easy to obtain from herbs like horsetail, bamboo shoots, fruit and mineral waters.

If you can't eat grains, then oranges (especially if you can tolerate OJ), apples, raisins, grapes are all good sources.

If you have access to biodynamic fruits and vegetables, then I would go with these rather than organic. Biodynamic farming tend to focus more on the health of the soil and more likely to be richer in silicon.

If you haven't done so, then I would transition to either totally organic or biodynamic. This is what really turned my Celiac gentleman's health around. He was so stoked, he preached his new found knowledge to everyone he met. Tradesmen, shop assistants, at any social ocassion. He said to me, there are so many suffering and they need to know this stuff. I reminded him how hard and stressful it was for me in particular, trying to convert him and his wife back to the garden of eden. Too funny :)

As for your seafood dilemna, have you tried to source online?

Is the can tin or aluminium? If the contents are in oil or acidic medium, there is risk of metals transfer to food. Oysters in oil and tomato sauce would be vulnerable to metal transfer. I don't know how effective washing would be, as the metal will migrate into the tissue of the product, rather than stay at the surface.

This is not just your dilemna but a huge and costly problem for the whole food processing and packaging industries. At least it keeps the testing labs profitable.

 

[Mito]

These are my labs from last week:
Ceruloplasmin, S - 29.6 mg/dL ( standard range 20.0 - 51.0 mg/dL)
COPPER,SERUM - 1.28 mcg/mL (standard range0.75 - 1.45 mcg/mL)
ZINC,S - 0.97 mcg/mL (standard range0.66 - 1.10 mcg/mL)

I know ceruloplasmin and serum copper are relevant to the copper side of the ratio, but I don't know how to determine the actual ratio based on the three different results.

If my math is correct, your
Copper to Zinc ratio is 1.3 (reference range 0.7 to 1.0)*
Copper not bound to Ceruloplasmin is 39.2 ug/dL (reference range 5 to 15 ug/dL)*
Percentage of Non-Ceruloplasmin-bound copper is 30.6% (reference range is 5% to 20%)*
*These reference ranges are from this post (Great Advice on Pyrrole Disorder (Pyroluria)) and I don’t know if they are meaningful.

So your numbers suggest tending towards copper toxicity, but again, I don’t really understand if it is meaningful as Peat doesn’t seem to acknowledge copper toxicity. I have not read anything about free copper in Peat’s writings nor has he talked about it in the radio interviews (to my knowledge). Former forum member @gbolduev posted a lot about copper so he seems to think free copper is meaningful (and claims it suggests a slow oxidizer).

Here are some relevant posts on the subject if you care to read more about it:
Excess Copper
Bicarbonate Vs. PaCO2 Blood Tests

 

[Zpol]

@Zpol, perhaps I am missing something (it is afterall really early in the morning). but I don't see any issues with your levels. They are clearly in the range. Why does your doctor think you are not absorbing zinc?? If these levels are in the serum, then clearly you are absorbing them.

Frankly, I don't see such good levels like these even in people that aren't Celiac!!

Obviously, keep doing what you are doing because you ARE absorbing.

What we don't know and serum is not a good indicator; is how much is in the tissues. A hair tissue mineral analysis may give a better idea and this is where we have more research available with ratio of zn/cu.

Thank you! Wow, I thought I was loosing it for a bit because my levels are clearly in "standard range"... I thought I was missing something when I was determining the 'ratio'. There was one other test, called alkaline phosphatase which was lowish, it was 31 U/L (standard range is 30 - 120 U/L). Maybe my doc was considering that... don't know, guess I'll just have to be patient and ask her when I see her next. Maybe I'll have to get that hair test after all. I'm also thinking I should invest in Chris Masterjohn's 'cheat sheet' for understanding your own lab work. I really want to understand this.

Gee, hard to believe in a Country like the USA, you only have access to cheap imports.

I can get some good stuff including crab, lobster, ocean cod, haddock, shrimp, just haven't found a good source for oysters. None of it is cheap but I look at it as an investment.

Again, aluminium may not be an issue if you have plenty of silica (silicon) in the diet. Please don't think you need to supplement silica because it is toxic. It is readily available in fruits, vegetables, herbs and grains. Easy to obtain from herbs like horsetail, bamboo shoots, fruit and mineral waters.

If you can't eat grains, then oranges (especially if you can tolerate OJ), apples, raisins, grapes are all good sources.

Oh... I just recently became in love with horsetail tea infusion! And I drink Perrier as my main water source, love the stuff. And those are fruits I eat daily so I got that one down without even trying!

If you haven't done so, then I would transition to either totally organic or biodynamic. This is what really turned my Celiac gentleman's health around. He was so stoked, he preached his new found knowledge to everyone he met. Tradesmen, shop assistants, at any social ocassion. He said to me, there are so many suffering and they need to know this stuff. I reminded him how hard and stressful it was for me in particular, trying to convert him and his wife back to the garden of eden. Too funny :)

This story is amazing. My conventional medical doctor actually pointed to me and said 'you need to eat only organic' at my recent appointment when we discussed my recurring flare-ups even though I haven't been contaminated with gluten in years. So glad at least one M.D. understands the importance. Thanks for the info on biodynamic farming. It's ironic that you mentioned this because I just found out about a friend of a friend who is just starting a small biodynamic farming operation near where I live.

As for your seafood dilemna, have you tried to source online?

I'm going to look into this more.

This is not just your dilemna but a huge and costly problem for the whole food processing and packaging industries. At least it keeps the testing labs profitable.

So sad but true.

Truly, thank you for your input!

 

[Ella]

@Zpol, read the COA you provided and yes the lab tests for all the organisms required by law. What is missing, and what worries me the most, they don't test for bacterial and fungal spores or mycotoxins. They don't test for glyphosate, keeping in mind that the highest levels of glyphosate have been found to be in garbanzo beans in comparison to conventional grown.

This is why I don't trust organic certification and labelling.

There is obviously some sort of inflammatory process going on in the gut if you have problems with the villi.

Have you looked at parasitic infecton. I would do an organic acid test to assess whether fungal metabolites are an issue and perhaps stool test to see if you have overgrowth of gram -ve bacteria.

There is something obviously upsetting the gut lining and may be difficult to repair if the source is not dealt with.

 

[Zpol]

If my math is correct, your
Copper to Zinc ratio is 1.3 (reference range 0.7 to 1.0)*
Copper not bound to Ceruloplasmin is 39.2 ug/dL (reference range 5 to 15 ug/dL)*
Percentage of Non-Ceruloplasmin-bound copper is 30.6% (reference range is 5% to 20%)*
*These reference ranges are from this post (Great Advice on Pyrrole Disorder (Pyroluria)) and I don’t know if they are meaningful.

Thanks, this does help me to understand the relationship a little better. I will look more into the links you provided. I want to be prepared when I have my follow up visit with my doc. I'm am probably in that slow oxidizer zone that Gbold speaks of. But I'm not sure I want to pursue his protocol, I think it would take some individualized modifications which I don't think I'm educated enough to figure out on my own. Based one the linked thread about copper and iron, I'm going to try and get my doctor to test serum iron, ferretin, and TIBC and get a hair mineral test done, I'll revisit my doctor and see what she has to say, and then get a second opinion (probably with this Dr. Garrett Smith that I keep hearing so much about).

This is why I don't trust organic certification and labelling.

Good points. I was just reading Haidut's recent post on the topic of glyphosate being found in even organic crops. I've read about this before and there is more evidence coming out that supports it; yikes. I should've known to look for mycotixins etc as soon as i read the words "sprouted", thanks for pointing this out.

There is obviously some sort of inflammatory process going on in the gut if you have problems with the villi.

Have you looked at parasitic infecton. I would do an organic acid test to assess whether fungal metabolites are an issue and perhaps stool test to see if you have overgrowth of gram -ve bacteria.

There is something obviously upsetting the gut lining and may be difficult to repair if the source is not dealt with.

I had a stool test done last year. The findings were: No yeast isolated, no microscopic yeast, minimal 'Beneficial/expected flora', imbalanced flora called Alpha hemolytic strep, no parasites or ova, Negative for Giardia or Cryptosporidium, low Elastase, Inflammation markers were all in range, Secretory IgA was HIGH at 242 mg/dL (Reference range is 51-204 mg/dL), Butyrate and total SCFA's are at the LOW end of the reference range, intestinal health markers are in range (including RBC, pH, and Occult blood).
So basically, test results indicate damaged mucosal tissue and upregulated immune response and overgrowth of commensal flora and not enough beneficial flora.
I've tried several herbal antibiotics, Rx antiobitics, and probiotics with equivocal results. Currently taking Lauricidin for the overgrowth of commensal flora and to keep my herpes-Zoster virus and some other unknown retrovirus in check. But I don't have any way to know this is actually working to eliminate these issues. I've read about a dozen other protocols to fix these; xylitol, turpentine, Artemisinin, bee propolis, bacteriophages, high dose B2, and many others. So now I've got all these wonderful test results but need to figure out which protocol to follow.
Feeling a bit overwhelmed with all the options that's for sure.

 

[Ella]

Yea, IgA is really high. Definately, something going on.
This is why I suggest the organic acid test, as I think it is way more superior than just doing stool. Parasites are extremely difficult to detect on stool tests. Lots of false -ves.

Your beneficial flora is nourished by healthy wholefoods and plant based diet. Healthy fruits and vegetables also come with their own viruses that compete with the problematic ones like herpes. There is a lot of research information and hopefully some clinical experience to come out on beneficial viruses. As I said you need to return to the garden of eden.

Biodynamic farming is truly the way to go; your friend is on the right track.

Steiner was truly a remarkable man and still so much to learn.

If you are targeting killing commensals then you will also be killing beneficials. These are easily built back up with healthy foods.

What you breed in your gut is dependent on what you consume, supplement and what is not digested and metabolites formed.
Similar to composting. If you put in healthy scraps from fruits, vegetables, prunings and ash from clean wood, you get healthy organisms and wonderful earthworms. However, put the wrong stuff in and you will get not so beneficial organisms and breed undesirable worms.

What is more worrisome to me; when we are so hell bent on killing these microbes, is that under pressure they morph into more resistant and pathogenic strains.

This is why I love Peat's raw carrot salad. I think we should be thinking of more creative strategies to deal with our foes. Honestly, we really can't blame them for doing their job. They are nature's clean-up crew. The do a magnificient job of returning stuff back to the earth and cleaning up toxic and polluted environments.

It would be useful to know which specific species of commensals you are breeding. Clostridia is becoming very difficult to treat, Fecal transplants seem the only solution, however finding healthy donors is becoming difficult. Only 1 in 20 people have been found to be suitable candidate. We really need to turn this situation around. I don't know what it will take for people to wake up to what is happening to the population. It is almost too overwhelming.

If you stop ingesting pesticides, chemicals, preservatives etc., from your foods, you will at least eliminate/reduce the populations of problematic species which are best utilised in toxic waste dumps out instead of our gut.

 

[Ella]

@Mito thank you for posting those links and yes unbound copper is something to be concerned about. I don't know the reliability and sensitivity of that equation. Do you know whether there has been further work in validating it?

My response to @Zpol was in question to whether with a damaged gut lining she was absorbing both zinc and copper. As her results show, she is able to do this. A serum test, really does not tell the whole story, which I agree, like everyone else. it is frustrating to say the least. What is in serum is what is being transported. We don't know its destination and how the body will utilise and partition it and whether there are heavy metals which will compete with it.

Blood and serum do contain minerals, but they may not be completely representative of the body’s mineral storage. In many cases, the serum level of minerals is maintained at the expense of tissue concentration (homeostatic mechanisms). Serum concentrations may fluctuate with emotional changes, the time of day the blood is drawn, or foods eaten prior to taking a sample.

I think it prudent to not rely simply on one matrix in trying to tease out whether a mineral or toxic metal or hormone for that matter is problematic.
For example, you may see high levels of estrogen or cortisol but it is not until you see what is being excreted in the urine do you know whether there is a problem.

So, even though @Zpol is showing high levels of copper in serum and in the range zinc levels, I would be curious to know how much is being excreted in the urine and perhaps if copper levels were low or high in urine decide whether there was a problem. Hair provides insights over a longer term. Serum and urine are more immediate.

As already mentioned females have estrogen to contend with and focusing on clearing estrogen efficiently, will also help to excrete copper.

You don't want high ALP as it is associated with many liver and bone diseases.

There are advantages of low ALP like better brain activity and memory. However, it is also required to fight gut infections like Clostridia sps. What I find intriguing is that in Celiac's you tend to see higher levels of ALP. It is upregulated with inflammation and infections. Perhaps bringing it up a tad might be beneficial with dealing with overgrowth. Maybe all the unbound copper is being employed to fight these organisms.

Are you sure you are eating adequate calories and protein? Low protein diets will lower ALP. Strenuous exercise, weightloss etc. can too.

More importantly, hypothyroidism lowers ALP. Increasing thyroid function will increase ALP.

Malnutrition can lead to low levels as can Wilson's disease. Your dr may be concerned due to these connections and why the emphasis on zinc.

I don't think Wilson's is that rare. 1 in 30,000 is an awful lot of people, however you would be looking at low levels of ceruloplasmin (< 0.20g/L).

@Zpol for all of us, it is a constant work in progress.

You must be doing something right; you just need to tweak to support whatever your body is contending with at this point in time.

 

[Zpol]

Yea, IgA is really high. Definately, something going on.
This is why I suggest the organic acid test, as I think it is way more superior than just doing stool. Parasites are extremely difficult to detect on stool tests. Lots of false -ves.

I just checked out this organic acid test and I think I know where I can get it done. My N.D. has a lab where he can do simple blood and urine tests and has partnerships with several other labs that do more specialized tests (pretty sure my medical doctor won't do it but I'll check!).

If you are targeting killing commensals then you will also be killing beneficials. These are easily built back up with healthy foods.

I agree this is true. It seemed true from the start, but for lack of another route at the time I took the antibiotics and probiotics. Of course it didn't help. About 15 yrs ago I started raw vegan/low fat, then cooked low fat vegan, then vegan, then had to eliminate nuts, seeds, legumes, so switched to paleo, then started with elimination diets, now I'm on the Autoimmune protocol diet, I've reintro'd eggs successfully (pastured, organic), coffee and chocolate and small amounts of potato (unsuccessful with organic rice, goat dairy, tomato, peppers). I'd say about 90% organic throughout that time. Now I realize that I could never escape the glyphosate (even though I thought i was). There is a notable relation to Celiac specifically and glyphosate.

It would be useful to know which specific species of commensals you are breeding. Clostridia is becoming very difficult to treat, Fecal transplants seem the only solution, however finding healthy donors is becoming difficult. Only 1 in 20 people have been found to be suitable candidate. We really need to turn this situation around. I don't know what it will take for people to wake up to what is happening to the population. It is almost too overwhelming.

I agree this is quite frightening. Many people don't consider the extrapolated data that shows eventually there will far more sick people than well people; who will help and care for the sick when there's no more healthy people? Who's going to be the 'control group'?
The fact that already only 1 in 20 have healthy stools to donate currently is frightening and the ratio is getting worse.
Personally, I have "3+ Clostridium spp.", no signs of a C. Difficile infection though so no further testing has been done on that.

Your beneficial flora is nourished by healthy wholefoods and plant based diet. Healthy fruits and vegetables also come with their own viruses that compete with the problematic ones like herpes. There is a lot of research information and hopefully some clinical experience to come out on beneficial viruses. As I said you need to return to the garden of eden.

This research is new to me; I've only just even heard about it; I don't have the education to understand it fully. I am prioritizing healthy, supposedly organic foods that don't cause pain, and including 'therapeutic' foods like carrot salad, green veg, herbal tea infusions, fresh OJ, eggs from pastured chickens fed supplemental coconut feed, grass fed beef, free range organic chicken, coffee free from mold. I avoid cell phone usage as much as possible, unplug electronics when not in use, only use coconut oil (saponified) for soap (fortunately I found a place that tests their body products and eggs for glyphosate!), rarely use make up and only mineral and plant based on occasion. Basically I do everything I can to be as natural as possible. I can't move away from my town where my family and friends, that's the only thing I can't do.. and I actually did try doing that too.

I have a particularly strong desire to overcome this because I don't want to see anymore people have their lives ruined by disease and I have the motivation and desire to learn and help. Plus I see this epidemic of infectious and degenerative diseases as very real threat to humanity and I feel a real urgency to do something about it, but, got get well myself first.

Thank you again, I greatly value your input.

 

[Ella]

Personally, I have "3+ Clostridium spp.", no signs of a C. Difficile infection though so no further testing has been done on that.

It is not only C. diff. we need to be concerned about. There are around 60 species belonging to Clostridium genus. They are gram +ve anaerobic spore-forming rods. They cause a variety of infections in humans and animals by means of excreting protein toxins. Signs of infection are not always apparent even when lethal levels of endotoxins are produced.

I would certainly investigate exactly which ones you are breeding. The organic acids will provide clues which will back up the stool analysis.

No your dr will not do or be familiar with organic acid test. Your ND should be well versed in how to interpret.

You're fortunate, you can still eat a variety of foods and I'm surprised a little potato is not an issue for you. For many it is a nightmare.

From your vegan past; your copper levels make total sense. You would also have much PUFAs to get rid off and estrogens to detox. I would try to include more red meat like lamb, venison etc., however as fresh, as fresh can be. Even, if organic, biodynamic or free-range; you don't want your meat vacuum-packed or processed in any manner. You want fresh-killed. Freshness over-rides any other labelling claim here. Remember, freeze-dried is not synonymous with fresh. The same for seafood in the diet. You want fresh, nothing packed, tinned or processed. Processed foods are a vehicle for these organisms.

Good to hear despite your predicament; you remain passionate in wanting to help others. Yes, you must heal yourself first. In the process you will have learnt much.

Best in health.