Effect Of Progesterone On SHBG In Men

johnwester130

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Thanks for posting this. I am always appreciative of this kind of info.

10-20mg of progesterone cream applied topically I assume? A lot of the creams have pretty poor absorption so it's possible you were only getting 5mg or under. I think even progest-e is only about 20% absorption, which is why Ray recommends taking it orally. Do you happen to remember which product you used?

through gums, which counts as a topical, has 100% absorption. I agree, the creams are useless,

If onasnatural was being honest, they would stop selling all their creams and just sell the liquid

Ona's Natural 10% Progesterone Oil, 2 oz Eye Dropper
 

Mossy

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I emailed Peat my labs & average temperature (36-36.3 Celsius) and heart rate (50-65bpm), he recommended 30mg NDT per day (half a grain).

Results after 2-3 weeks of this are doubling in energy levels, never cold, a lot more pep, confident and calm as well as consistent morning wood every day to different strengths. Definitely, androgenic stuff going on.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Could you please elaborate a bit further with your NDT experience--are you saying you find it a better alternative to progesterone and that it replaced progesterone use for you? Thanks.
 

Aleeri

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bull****, all the easily available milk in Sweden is from inseminated cows.

If you shop the supermarket yes, in both Stockholm and my hometown of Eskilstuna there are local farmers who sell meat and milk directly from their farms.
 

Aleeri

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Thanks for sharing your experience. Could you please elaborate a bit further with your NDT experience--are you saying you find it a better alternative to progesterone and that it replaced progesterone use for you? Thanks.

Yes, so far hormone wise I am only doing NDT now. But I plan on adding some Preg/DHEA in a week or two, also maybe a drop of Progestene every other day and see what happens.

I used to not be able to take Preg before as it triggered a stress reaction for me. After my success with NDT I am thinking that it's probably because it drove cortisol too low while my thyroid was not working correctly. Now that it is I am hoping for better success with Preg/DHEA.

In general, I read a lot of the posts @haidut have done on this forum about progesterone and my own experience confirm that it can indeed boost testosterone as long as it's not overdosed. I am looking to try Prog/DHEA combo as well as to me this seems like the ideal combination.
 

Mossy

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Yes, so far hormone wise I am only doing NDT now. But I plan on adding some Preg/DHEA in a week or two, also maybe a drop of Progestene every other day and see what happens.

I used to not be able to take Preg before as it triggered a stress reaction for me. After my success with NDT I am thinking that it's probably because it drove cortisol too low while my thyroid was not working correctly. Now that it is I am hoping for better success with Preg/DHEA.

In general, I read a lot of the posts @haidut have done on this forum about progesterone and my own experience confirm that it can indeed boost testosterone as long as it's not overdosed. I am looking to try Prog/DHEA combo as well as to me this seems like the ideal combination.
Yeah, it really seems to be a challenge to supplement with hormones; and, really, with anything apart from food.

I've yet to take the plunge with thyroid, due to the already rocky experience I've had with lesser non-hormonal supplements (except D3). I can get tachycardia, which is my greatest apprehension to using thyroid and other hormones. But, I'll probably delve into thyroid or progesterone pretty soon.

Thanks again for sharing.
 

postman

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If you shop the supermarket yes, in both Stockholm and my hometown of Eskilstuna there are local farmers who sell meat and milk directly from their farms.
Yes, but virtually all of them artificially inseminate their cows. Do you know what commercial means? Please show me evidence of store bought milk that has not been made with this process, I would love to be proven wrong.
 

A.R

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I used Now Foods Progesterone cream (lavender scent), applied topically on mostly forearms, chest and thighs.
Does the cream contain saw palmetto? I've read some bad experiences of saw palmetto, comparing it to finasteride.
 

japanesedude

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Progesterone

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I've done blood tests before and after when I used progesterone cream as well as the herb Fadogia Agrestis.

Results were increase in SHBG, total T and free T and reductions in E2 estradiol.

After this experience, I came to the conclusion that natural progesterone is not feminizing as long as it is not overdosed.

Thank you so much dude
 

Progesterone

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Progesterone is definately feminizing, and that's why commcercial milk in general is feminizing and lowers testosterone as evidenced by multiple studies, that's why transgender people take progesterone supplements to get fuller breasts, that's why progesterone lowers penile size

Interesting theories.

Do you think Progesterone is beneficial for male pattern baldness?
 

Aleeri

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Interesting theories.

Do you think Progesterone is beneficial for male pattern baldness?

Just adding my experience here, I used progesterone for 4 months topically, it had zero effect on my MPB.

My personal opinion is that Prog is probably protective against MPB, but when MPB is already progressed and you got yourself a metabolic imbalance, it is too late for Prog to remedy it.

Also, I tend to be a realist nowadays about MPB, if you lost a lot and want it back, just get a transplant. Nobody is growing their hair back, the internet is just full of millions of people arguing what is the best way and the stuff that works will maybe increase density by 1-25%, but it will never bring you back to how it was before. If anybody actually figured out how to do it they would be a multi billionaire at this point, it's like the holy grail after erectile dysfunction drugs.
 

Progesterone

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Just adding my experience here, I used progesterone for 4 months topically, it had zero effect on my MPB.

My personal opinion is that Prog is probably protective against MPB, but when MPB is already progressed and you got yourself a metabolic imbalance, it is too late for Prog to remedy it.

Also, I tend to be a realist nowadays about MPB, if you lost a lot and want it back, just get a transplant. Nobody is growing their hair back, the internet is just full of millions of people arguing what is the best way and the stuff that works will maybe increase density by 1-25%, but it will never bring you back to how it was before. If anybody actually figured out how to do it they would be a multi billionaire at this point, it's like the holy grail after erectile dysfunction drugs.

Thanks for replying.

I did get a transplant. All I need to do now is to maintain what I have, not regrow anything.

Would you say Prog is helpful for maintaining?
 

Aleeri

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Thanks for replying.

I did get a transplant. All I need to do now is to maintain what I have, not regrow anything.

Would you say Prog is helpful for maintaining?

I got a transplant too. Best decision I think, such a waste of time trying to treat it, conceal it and worry about it. I think honestly the psychological stress it can cause some people are worse than the actual cost of a transplant. Living a life where you have to apply a bunch of different things to your scalp daily and getting all that crap on your pillow etc is no way to live. Just do it and forget about it, getting it fixed is a huge stress reducer in itself.

After the transplant, I just stopped all topical treatments (none worked anyway and I practically tried it all, everything that's recommended on this forum too). I just keep following a general Peaty style type diet, regular exercise and focus on reducing my stress levels. I just make sure I use some shampoo and hair products that are natural and don't contain any bad chemicals.

I am also doing a couple of PRP injections to the scalp and considering it's cheap over here in Asia (3 treatments for about $600) I might get one per year ongoing if it helps. Seems like one of the best ways to speed up growth besides red light, and I do not have the patience to sit around with a helmet lol.

I rather do another transplant in 10 years time if my lifestyle fixes fail, than spend the next 10 years applying ***t to my head every day, seriously I regret not getting the transplant earlier.

Concerning Prog though I think it does not work for hair loss unless it corrects an estrogen dominance or thyroid problem, which it can do by applying it anywhere. I know some doctors who use Progesterone scalp injections, but I am not sure about the effectiveness, not a lot fo research out there.
 
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So what is your model for explaining how milk lowers both testosterone and estrogen if it's not the progesterone? What else could it be? What in milk lowers testosterone and estrogen?

The high spike in insulin, excessive lowering of SHBG, leading to hormonal issues via negative feedbacks from excess free T.

Posters with high SHBG in this thread should experiment with DHEA+Proviron, 6.25mg each per day at most... been pretty successful with it.
 
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@Aleeri i guess you’ve tried the following....? Any feedback?

- RU58841
- MinoxidilMax = combination of Rogaine and Finasteride
-BiEstro cream

All topical.

How about the calcification theory? Massages, MSM, vitamin K2, all that stuff.
 

Aleeri

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@Aleeri i guess you’ve tried the following....? Any feedback?

- RU58841
- MinoxidilMax = combination of Rogaine and Finasteride
-BiEstro cream

All topical.

How about the calcification theory? Massages, MSM, vitamin K2, all that stuff.

I think the above 3 treatments you suggested are only applicable if you 100% believe that MPB is driven by androgens, which I do not. I think for example an increase in scalp levels of DHT is simply a small side effect of the big picture.

RU58841 - Not a fan of anti-androgens, if anything my hair loss issues started 5-6 years ago when I got low T issues, so anti-androgens is a no go. I did try topical spironolactone for many months, did nothing and I think there is a possibility of systemic absorption with all topical treatments.

I would never touch anything containing Finasteride, I think that's like the Meth of hair loss drugs lol.

Estrogens creams never either, I had estrogen dominance before same time with low T issues, it's like trying to put out a fire by adding more fire to it. If hair loss triggered in me by low androgens and high estrogen state how can it possibly fix the core issue. It's like when they use anti-androgens for prostate cancer.

The reasoning makes no sense, if androgens fueled MPB and are the core driver alone then we would all be bald in our teens...


Calcification theory makes more sense yes, but it's like a part-time job going the massage route. You'll be spending like 5% of your life massaging your scalp to get good results. Is it worth the investment? Personally, I rather pay for a transplant, time is more valuable. Also, calcification theory does not hold up completely because transplanted hairs can survive the rest of your life in many cases.

Either way I'm doing Vitamin K2 daily since 7-8 months back. Impossible to say if it has done anything to the hair though.
 
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The reasoning makes no sense, if androgens fueled MPB and are the core driver alone then we would all be bald in our teens...

well that's a major disagreement I have with this forum, but I'm not really trying to get in an argument here. Some/many do bald in their teens, compare a teenager's hair to a child's.
Besides, for most the damage takes years to build up. When thyroid slows down in the 20s because of a more sedentary + stressed out life, ***t hits the fan.

Plus the low T issue should be relabeled low SHBG pandemic at this point. Low SHBG leads to higher levels of free androgens over time doing all the damage. Granted total T goes down "thanks to" negative feedback at the HPTA. It goes much deeper than follicle issues by the way.

1-s2.0-S0738081X17301669-gr2.jpg


I'd explore this ASAP because hair transplant are only solving one symptom I think. If you're more readily convinced by the massage theory, then androgen-driven tissue hypoxia as per above is consistent with the whole problem.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0738081X17301669

So, I'll use my topicals ;) It's all a matter of low frequency of use. Enough data on Finasteride being active for up to a week depending on the (extremely small) dose.
 

Aleeri

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well that's a major disagreement I have with this forum, but I'm not really trying to get in an argument here. Some/many do bald in their teens, compare a teenager's hair to a child's.
Besides, for most the damage takes years to build up. When thyroid slows down in the 20s because of a more sedentary + stressed out life, ***t hits the fan.

Plus the low T issue should be relabeled low SHBG pandemic at this point. Low SHBG leads to higher levels of free androgens over time doing all the damage. Granted total T goes down "thanks to" negative feedback at the HPTA. It goes much deeper than follicle issues by the way.

1-s2.0-S0738081X17301669-gr2.jpg


I'd explore this ASAP because hair transplant are only solving one symptom I think. If you're more readily convinced by the massage theory, then androgen-driven tissue hypoxia as per above is consistent with the whole problem.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0738081X17301669

So, I'll use my topicals ;) It's all a matter of low frequency of use. Enough data on Finasteride being active for up to a week depending on the (extremely small) dose.

Well, it should never be an argument, I think everybody should have their own opinion and be able to share theirs. Brainstorming is healthy.

I heard all the promotion about free T outside this forum and all the people against free T on this forum.

But just to share you my experience it cannot be assumed that there is just one way to look at SHBG and free T. Yes low SHBG is involved in diabetes for example but that does not mean that much higher SHBG is ideal

I had the reverse of what you suggest, I had high SHBG and low free T and I felt like ***t (I always had high total T). No morning erections, erectile dysfunction etc the whole nine yards. I was never obese by the way, slightly skinny fat but still considered slim.

After eventually changing into a Ray Peat dietary pattern and supplements + resistance training etc my SHBG went down 12 points, my free T went up and total T is around the top of average normal ranges.

I now have healthy body fat levels, never been so muscular in my life (went up 2 shirt sizes), have a morning boner I can hang a towel on every day, I mean EVERY day.

I did research the heart disease and alopecia link a bit before and looked at some studies, I posted about it in some other forum thread too, it was really strongest correlations with balding on the top of the head. Receding hairlines had much less correlation, which is personally the only problem I have myself.

I think it's all stress/cortisol/thyroid related, learned helplessness and all that stuff, the hormonal effects are just the ripples from the splash.
 

Progesterone

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I got a transplant too. Best decision I think, such a waste of time trying to treat it, conceal it and worry about it. I think honestly the psychological stress it can cause some people are worse than the actual cost of a transplant. Living a life where you have to apply a bunch of different things to your scalp daily and getting all that crap on your pillow etc is no way to live. Just do it and forget about it, getting it fixed is a huge stress reducer in itself.

After the transplant, I just stopped all topical treatments (none worked anyway and I practically tried it all, everything that's recommended on this forum too). I just keep following a general Peaty style type diet, regular exercise and focus on reducing my stress levels. I just make sure I use some shampoo and hair products that are natural and don't contain any bad chemicals.

I am also doing a couple of PRP injections to the scalp and considering it's cheap over here in Asia (3 treatments for about $600) I might get one per year ongoing if it helps. Seems like one of the best ways to speed up growth besides red light, and I do not have the patience to sit around with a helmet lol.

I rather do another transplant in 10 years time if my lifestyle fixes fail, than spend the next 10 years applying ***t to my head every day, seriously I regret not getting the transplant earlier.

Concerning Prog though I think it does not work for hair loss unless it corrects an estrogen dominance or thyroid problem, which it can do by applying it anywhere. I know some doctors who use Progesterone scalp injections, but I am not sure about the effectiveness, not a lot fo research out there.

Congrats man. :) Did you go FUE/FUT? I went the latter.

There are some reputable docs out there who say scalp prog injections are helpful, but yeah, who knows.

So you're not using anything at all per se to try and slow down the process a bit? interesting.

Yeah topicals are a b*tch.

I am testing out Prog 100mg (from healthnatura) taken in a veggie capsule, every other day at night. I apply a bit to hairline/scalp as well although I may just cut that part out.
 

Aleeri

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Congrats man. :) Did you go FUE/FUT? I went the latter.

There are some reputable docs out there who say scalp prog injections are helpful, but yeah, who knows.

So you're not using anything at all per se to try and slow down the process a bit? interesting.

Yeah topicals are a b*tch.

I am testing out Prog 100mg (from healthnatura) taken in a veggie capsule, every other day at night. I apply a bit to hairline/scalp as well although I may just cut that part out.

I went with FUE, there was a promotion so I got a really great price. I think FUT is the best to start with though if possible, you get more grafts out of it this way if you need another one later.

Nah I kinda got tired of spending money on products and using them you know, travel with these bottles everywhere etc. I never found anything that works well and I am not a fan of applying topical hormones unless I see an issue on my blood tests, and I don't.

The only one I would consider is indeed Progesterone but I found it to not really work for hair loss, I had increased loss even the period when I used it on my scalp (probably unrelated to prog though).

I've had slightly low Prog readings on my bloods for a long time but they have been moving up slowly since Peating. The crazy thing is that neither Preg nor Prog supplementation increase Prog levels on my blood test. What this mean's I am not sure but maybe my levels run naturally low or they quickly convert into something else. Peat recommended me thyroid.

Also, I do not like prog's potential sexual side effects. I had short periods of increased sexual function and then one day you overdo it and your **** is numb. I think thyroid is better to use and that's what I do, at least that way your body balances the levels for you as long as you have cholesterol.

I use thyroid, vit K2, vit E, coffee and occasional aspirin. I'm hoping they slowing my hair loss a bit in the long run.

The follicles that are sensitive to MPB are going to go anyway, it is just a question of when, either you try to fight the unwinnable process or you just replace them with non-sensitive follicles and call it a day.

My grandfather is almost 80 but super healthy, takes no medications and active. He is bald and went bald around the same age as me 25-30. So I do not take the MPB as a sign that your health is forever doomed.

You feel anything from the oral Prog? I only tried it topical.
 

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