Revisiting Melatonin

Tenglish

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Nov 18, 2015
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I would like a new non-dogmatic look at melatonin. Please consider that rat models might be backwards given their opposite (nocturnal wakefulness), it seems to me that circadian amplitude is most likely the key factor and needs to be incorporated in to the Peat friendly body of work. From a practical/ therapeutic standpoint, I am open to alternatives that are more in line with Peat and reduced stress, so for sleep induction I would have: Progesterone, small bits of Thyroid, niacinamide, cyproheptadine and perhaps glycine and magnesium (along with milk and sufficient calories/sugar). I generally do this plus add small bits (<1mg) of melatonin, I generally prefer sleep on the melatonin, but I might have blown our my endogenous receptors. I am trying to make sense of the research pointing in both directions with a clarified model/understanding. Here is something I recently wrote to an forum member in a n individual email:

As per melatonin, have you personally looked into it? I understand Ray has seen that it is a potential vasoconstrictor and inducer of serotonin or estrogen as well as an exacerbator of depression. I would love to either change my mind about melatonin (and stop using something harmful) or see if my logic makes sense. My first and biggest argument is that melatonin is known to reduce dramatically over the lifesapan and many older people have trouble sleeping while kids do not. My second argument is that I think the basic test model might be backwards as rats circadian rhythms are inverse to humans, meaning that melatonin might signal opposite pathways for thermo-regulation and sleep/repair - i.e. melatonin signals dark, but only initiates sleep via vasodialation when the organism would typically sleep. In rats it signals wakefulness and vasoconstriction (and perhaps a stress cascade seemingly related to the need for heightened vigilance) It seems I can find evidence of a different response in humans (Melatonin differentially affects vascular blood flow in humans) and a number of other benefits related to reduced cancer etc. I came to melatonin from basic evolutionary logic i.e artificial light damps or erases normal evening signaling and circadian regularity. I personally like it enough to prefer sleep on it to not ( I only take small sublingual doses), but there is a case for mild dependence. In my understanding the amplitude of temperature and wakefulness is very important for health. Higher daytime heat is associated with an inverse reduction of temperature. That said, I also think melatonin also poses risks for depression, fertility, and pigmentation. These, I think ,are related to it also being a signal of seasons. It seems that high absolute melatonin (or low daytime melatonin supression) suppresses sex hormones. The studies that use melatonin counter-circadian cycles seem to induce these problems. Similarly increasing melatonin seems to reduce/eliminate fertility which would be counter productive in the winter for many mammals but maybe not humans (this needs more work as humans seem to have a fertility season with July-Sept peaks in norther hemisphere suggesting a late fall gestation - meaning this is probably different than rats (
Pre-Baby Boom Era, the birth peak occurred as early as June in the northern states of Oregon and Maine, whereas the peak occurred as late as November in Florida. The variation in birth peak timing was largest during the Pre-Baby Boom Era, when the most out-of-phase states differed by more than five months. Source: Human birth seasonality: latitudinal gradient and interplay with childhood disease dynamics. - PubMed - NCBI). I would assume incrementally reducing melatonin would also signal something perhaps increasing thryoid.


http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing..../F2.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1
These are taken from just the first page of pubmed when I type "melatonin"

F
or:

M
elatonin brain death reduction:
Melatonin attenuated brain death tissue extract-induced cardiac damage by suppressing DAMP signaling. - PubMed - NCBI

B
reast cancer reduction:
Melatonin: A Molecule for Reducing Breast Cancer Risk. - PubMed - NCBI

Wrinkle Reduction:
Antiaging efficacy of melatonin-based day and night creams: a randomized, split-face, assessor-blinded proof-of-concept trial. - PubMed - NCBI

Promoter of autophagy:
Melatonin as an endogenous regulator of diseases: The role of autophagy. - PubMed - NCBI

Contra:Thyroid, insomnia, and the insanities: Commonalities in disease

Lower thyroid and causes seasonal depression:
Secondary to excessive melatonin synthesis, the consumption of tryptophan from outside the blood-brain barrier and melatonin over-signaling in the ... - PubMed - NCBI
Thyroid, insomnia, and the insanities: Commonalities in disease


Golilocks:

Small perfectly timed amounts seem helpful:
The phase shift hypothesis for the circadian component of winter depression

All thoughts and insights are appreciated.
 

Blue Water

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Apr 26, 2020
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Now it's a proposed covid-19 cure; has antiviral and DNA repair properties, anti-inflammatory, etc.

Also you can find many studies saying it helps headaches, and people with headaches had low melatonin in their urine. But this might mean that actually they have too much melatonin not too little. Some anecdotes say people have trouble w/ melatonin causing headaches. My mom thought she was getting coronavirus so I decided to give her some melatonin each night. She is also prone to migraines. It seemed to help briefly because she felt better for a couple days, but then she got a migraine recently.

For myself idk. Still on the fence about melatonin. Wouldn't use it regularly.
 

Elie

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some good points Tenglish.
What dose do you take and when throughout the day?
Less than 300 mcg I imagine?
 

Fidelio

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Feb 28, 2020
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It’s great. A potent anti-oxidant and strong regulator of circadian rhythms, which tend to become weaker as we age - hence melatonin supplementation becomes more necessary as we get older.
It does transiently impair thyroid and insulin sensitivity, hence you should not eat food close to melatonin supplementation. But you shouldn’t be eating a few hours pre-sleep anyway, despite what people on this forum will tell you.
If you need a bolus dose of sugar before bed to drop stress hormones enough to get you to sleep at night then you have a major issue with cortisol. Hint: stress hormones shouldn’t be elevated at night - fix the root issue.
If you need a bolus dose of sugar before bed so that you don’t wake up during the night, then you have a major issue with metabolic flexibility/mitochondrial health.
 

Elie

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what is the ideal dose for sleep?
I understand for safety reasons it needs to be less than 300 mcg?
 

Ras

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Sep 12, 2015
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Every plant food ever studied contains some melatonin. Everyone is supplementing melatonin. It's a great substance with remarkable, healthful properties.
 

ruprmurdoch

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Mar 22, 2017
Messages
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It’s great. A potent anti-oxidant and strong regulator of circadian rhythms, which tend to become weaker as we age - hence melatonin supplementation becomes more necessary as we get older.
It does transiently impair thyroid and insulin sensitivity, hence you should not eat food close to melatonin supplementation. But you shouldn’t be eating a few hours pre-sleep anyway, despite what people on this forum will tell you.
If you need a bolus dose of sugar before bed to drop stress hormones enough to get you to sleep at night then you have a major issue with cortisol. Hint: stress hormones shouldn’t be elevated at night - fix the root issue.
If you need a bolus dose of sugar before bed so that you don’t wake up during the night, then you have a major issue with metabolic flexibility/mitochondrial health.
for raised cortisol,fuses are:
-tonsils
-hernia in stomach groin area (do surgeon USG !)
-appendix and throid nodules (when inflamation is severe and organism is exausted)

first check this with regular doc's-especially first two
 

baccheion

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Jun 25, 2017
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what is the ideal dose for sleep?
I understand for safety reasons it needs to be less than 300 mcg?
Find a sustained-release version (REMfresh, though I've never tried it), then increment until sleep is patched. Better if labs could be run to see serum level. Their 5 mg version (1 mg instant and then 4 mg over 6-7 hours, limiting peak) seems to be the one that keeps melatonin above the threshold, so is good for those over 30.
 

TheReds

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Jun 19, 2021
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