Extreme Fatigue From Niacinamide- Lipolysis Dependence?

[unexamined_whimsy]

So is T3 oestrogenic?
What about the SHBG thing?

T3 is oestrogenic if stress hormones are high, or if it's supra physiological, such as when it's exogenously administered. The latter is supported by the literature and explains my symptoms taking thyroid when I didn't really need it. On 2 grains NDT I had high SHBG, a low end of the normal free-T with a supra physiological total-T and oestrogenic signs like spider angiomas, gynoid fat and an absent libido.

 

[Parsifal]

T3 is oestrogenic if stress hormones are high, or if it's supra physiological, such as when it's exogenously administered. The latter is supported by the literature and explains my symptoms taking thyroid when I didn't really need it. On 2 grains NDT I had high SHBG, a low end of the normal free-T with a supra physiological total-T and oestrogenic signs like spider angiomas, gynoid fat and an absent libido.

Interesting. Did the spider angiomas disappear? What do you think about copper or metabolism?

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

Interesting. Did the spider angiomas disappear? What do you think about copper or metabolism?

The spider angiomas have only partially disappeared after stopping thyroid. That's reasonable since I haven't yet fixed my oestrogen issues.

Supplementing with zinc (an alleged copper-antagonist) doesn't help with the oestrogenic side effects, even in high doses (150 mg per day) that are considered to be an ersatz for pharma AIs. At the same time, consuming calf liver, a rich source of copper, only makes my oestrogenic symptoms worse.

The onset of edema and oestrogenic side-effects is usually preceded by adrenaline-like symptoms (sweaty feet, anxiety, jitteriness). Perhaps, inhibiting FFA release via something like niacinamide (that @haidut also points out is: Niacinamide Is Androgenic And Increases Dht Effects/signaling) might help. My recent experience with it is encouraging.

 

[Parsifal]

The spider angiomas have only partially disappeared after stopping thyroid. That's reasonable since I haven't yet fixed my oestrogen issues.

Supplementing with zinc (an alleged copper-antagonist) doesn't help with the oestrogenic side effects, even in high doses (150 mg per day) that are considered to be an ersatz for pharma AIs. At the same time, consuming calf liver, a rich source of copper, only makes my oestrogenic symptoms worse.

The onset of edema and oestrogenic side-effects is usually preceded by adrenaline-like symptoms (sweaty feet, anxiety, jitteriness). Perhaps, inhibiting FFA release via something like niacinamide (that @haidut also points out is: Niacinamide Is Androgenic And Increases Dht Effects/signaling) might help. My recent experience with it is encouraging.

Why did you take thyroid in the first place? Low temps? Do you have low temps now?

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

Why did you take thyroid in the first place? Low temps? Do you have low temps now?

Yeah, cold extremities and low morning temperatures not meeting Broda Barnes' criterion.

My temperatures are better than before but I still struggle with edema.

 

[sladerunner69]

People's need for supplemental T4 and T3 lie along a continuum, not that T3 is necessarily detrimental, as you infer. If you look at the experience of users of cytomel online, you find that its catabolic properties are well known and the general view is to 'take cytomel only with androgens'. Personally too, I find T3 extremely catabolic and that it raises estrogen palpably per the many studies on this subject.

T2 is biologically inactive (though it induces weight loss in rats) vs. T3 and depending on the individual D3 activity can be stimulated either by the excess T3 or by the increased peripheral conversion of estrogens.

You actually think T3 is catabolic? What evidence so you have to support this? studies articles anything? The wealth of information and experiences on this form pointa to thyroid being generally anti-estrogenic. I dont see how anything increasing the thyroid could increase estrogen in any convievable way.

What I do think could be possible is that T3 favors progesterone production over androgens amd this leads to demotion of androgenic traita.

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

The Conversion of Androgens to Estrogens in Hyperthyroidism
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jcem-38-2-207

A paradigm of experimentally induced mild hyperthyroidism: effects on nitrogen balance, body composition, and energy expenditure in healthy young men
A paradigm of experimentally induced mild hyperthyroidism: effects on nitrogen balance, body composition, and energy expenditure in healthy young men. - PubMed - NCBI

Thyroid related estrogen elevations show up in the form of large increases in estrone sulphate rather than estradiol. The association of hyperthyroidism and gynecomastia is considered 'well-known' according to the literature.

Regarding its catabolism, it essentially burned through all my muscle, while fat mass remained more or less the same when I was doing about 3 grains of NDT. My chests also got fattier suggesting pseudo gynecomastia. My understanding is that thyroid in excess is extremely catabolic to the muscles, yet causes an enlargement (is anabolic?) of organs such as the heart and liver.

Androgens such as DHT certainly mitigate the catabolic effects of thyroid so there could be some water to the theory that thyroid significantly raises progesterone that may then lead to an antagonism of the androgens. In my experience DHT actually acts somewhat like thyroid ought to, in that I get a clean surge of energy, mental focus and warm extremities. In case you're wondering, I use a homemade hydroalcoholic gel based DHT similar, I suppose. to Andractim.

When I encounter the rather frequent complaint of folks here bloating up with thyroid, I tend to think it's because of its estrogen raising effect.

 

[superhuman]

@unexamined_whimsy RP told me T3 is anti-estrogen and helps to lower estrogen.

T3 will burn through muscles if you dont consume enough protein and dont do any strength training and are taking more then 75 mcg of t3 a day. 3 grains NDT is how much T3 ? how can you say you lost all muscles and got fatter? do you have a dexa scan or any other fat caliper test? sure you will get fat if you eat more then you burn and are sedentary you will also loose muscles.

 

[Giraffe]

You actually think T3 is catabolic? What evidence so you have to support this? studies articles anything?

A paradigm of experimentally induced mild hyperthyroidism: effects on nitrogen balance, body composition, and energy expenditure in healthy young men. - PubMed - NCBI

[...] Regarding its catabolism, it essentially burned through all my muscle, while fat mass remained more or less the same when I was doing about 3 grains of NDT.

@unexamined_whimsy , your experiences differ quite a bit from the results of the study you referenced:

"T3 treatment produced significant losses in both lean mass (1.5 ± 0.3 kg) and fat mass (2.7 ± 0.4 kg) by 6 weeks, with similar reductions in both at 9 weeks. The high fat diet somewhat attenuated the loss of body fat."

"Although both lean and fat mass were decreased by T3 treatment, as has been seen previously, N balance showed an initial decline, but returned to neutral and, in some individuals, even positive N balance by 9 weeks. This finding is similar to that of Wilson and Lamberts (17), who reported that T3 treatment in obese patients, while promoting weight loss, did not cause a deterioration in N balance. "

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

@unexamined_whimsy RP told me T3 is anti-estrogen and helps to lower estrogen.

T3 will burn through muscles if you dont consume enough protein and dont do any strength training and are taking more then 75 mcg of t3 a day. 3 grains NDT is how much T3 ? how can you say you lost all muscles and got fatter? do you have a dexa scan or any other fat caliper test? sure you will get fat if you eat more then you burn and are sedentary you will also loose muscles.

I am aware that taking thyroid demands extra nutrients. I was careful to consume a lot of extra calories primarily from fruit, and my protein consumption at the time, from mostly Peat approved sources, was also more than adequate. I am certain I lost a lot of muscle and gained fat because prior to doing this I had a conspicuously muscular physique with a body fat percentage I would ball park to be around 8%. Post thyroid I attained a gynoid appearance.

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

@unexamined_whimsy , your experiences differ quite a bit from the results of the study you referenced:

"T3 treatment produced significant losses in both lean mass (1.5 ± 0.3 kg) and fat mass (2.7 ± 0.4 kg) by 6 weeks, with similar reductions in both at 9 weeks. The high fat diet somewhat attenuated the loss of body fat."

"Although both lean and fat mass were decreased by T3 treatment, as has been seen previously, N balance showed an initial decline, but returned to neutral and, in some individuals, even positive N balance by 9 weeks. This finding is similar to that of Wilson and Lamberts (17), who reported that T3 treatment in obese patients, while promoting weight loss, did not cause a deterioration in N balance. "

Yes, probably not the best study to support my experience, but the initial nitrogen balance was negative. It's quite possible that some of us don't assimilate nutrients despite a generous diet, and that leads to an accelerated catabolism on taking thyroid. It's also interesting to consider the testimonials of the BB community that overwhelmingly find T3 to be catabolic. They recommend taking it only in conjunction with androgens.

 

[sladerunner69]

Yes, probably not the best study to support my experience, but the initial nitrogen balance was negative. It's quite possible that some of us don't assimilate nutrients despite a generous diet, and that leads to an accelerated catabolism on taking thyroid. It's also interesting to consider the testimonials of the BB community that overwhelmingly find T3 to be catabolic. They recommend taking it only in conjunction with androgens.

Msot likely because it raises progesterone. I dont believe it is estrogenic however. I think because thyroid is present in both male and females it has the propencity to affect progesterone mroeso than androgens. The ratio of progesterone to androgens is important, and it grows when thyroid is administerred. Through opposing androgens like DHT, higher progesterone could definitely have a catabolic and gyno type effect. Many studies however have proven that progesterone and t3 oppose estrogen.

 

[Luann]

Niacin or magnesium (both discourage lipolysis) will make it very hard to get up in the morning if I take them the day before. Once I left work just two hours into my shift after taking too much niacin the day before. It was like having CFS.

 

[haidut]

Niacin or magnesium (both discourage lipolysis) will make it very hard to get up in the morning if I take them the day before. Once I left work just two hours into my shift after taking too much niacin the day before. It was like having CFS.

Niacin or niacinamide?

 

[Luann]

Niacin. I take 1/3 of a 400 mg pill every couple days now.

 

[sladerunner69]

Also I think the pro gaba affects of both magnesium and niacinimide can really forcibly relax the nervous system, which is why I only take large doses of these before bed...