Nutrients In Kale Broth?

aquaman

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Which greens do you use, and do you use organic? Do you eat the leaves or just drink the water?

Organic for sure. Normally a few varieties of kale (blank and green, they sell them at an organic stall near me), but also spinach and what ever else is on sale. Also add a few carrots, onion, celery. Tons of salt, and a pinch of baking soda per portion while cooking.

I just drink the broth like a soup. It's delicious
 

charlie

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For some reason green broths make me feel incredible. Not sure if Mg, Ca or other trace minerals. Would highly recommend as s missing piece of the Peat puzzle. He often mentions well-cooked greens as important.
Would not be caught without it. Sippin' some now.
 

Travis

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Also, would there be a lot of antinutrients and goitrogens also left in the broth? I read an article that warned against drinking the broth of green leafy vegetables because it may contain goitrogens and other anti-nutrients. Not sure if there are studies that have analyzed any of this?
There are lots of studies on this. I've read a few, and there are reductions in goitrogens with cooking. Goitrogens were first largely associated with cassava, and brassica species do have them. However, they have been largely bred-out of broccoli and kale over time. The Russian Kale, with purple stem, still has quite a bit more than curly and Lacinato varieties. The goitrogens release thiocyanates with have about the same affinity for the thyroid as does iodide. It only accelerates the formation of goitre, and doesn't really cause it when in a state of iodine excess. I would avoid Russian Kale.

I make sure to eat a kelp tablet now and then for the iodide ions. There's just not a lot foods very high in calcium, and I have come to the conclusion that you are stuck with two choices: green leaves or dairy products. Both have their pros and cons.

I'm not sure about the heat-stability of folate; I think it's fairly robust. I think that vitamin C would be the first to go, followed by thiamine.
 

tara

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For some reason green broths make me feel incredible. Not sure if Mg, Ca or other trace minerals.
+1 to them making a difference.
 

Waynish

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I've seen a few of these threads now... Obviously cooking increases the utility of greens, but which greens is the peat community recommending throwing out after water extraction - and which greens to still consume?
 

Ella

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Please consider when using kale that it preferentially bioaccumulates thallium even if there is very little thallium in the earth's crust. This is why these types of plants are excellent in bioremediation of toxic soils. :(
 

moss

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Please consider when using kale that it preferentially bioaccumulates thallium even if there is very little thallium in the earth's crust. This is why these types of plants are excellent in bioremediation of toxic soils. :(

Well that's food for thought....

But if you grow your own, in soil you know to be safe and in raised beds it should be fine.
It is one of the easier greens to grow, even in a pot if space is limited.
 

Ella

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@moss the only way to know the soil is safe is if you test it for thallium. Whose testing the soil, fertilisers and for that matter the water. Underground water becomes contaminated from mining operations. There is high thallium in many of the fuels used for cars. If you live near a highway or busy road it is in the air, then falls onto your nurtured soil and you don't want to be living near a cement factory.

The primary anthropogenic source of Tl is steel industry slag from blast furnaces, basic oxygen furnaces and electric arc furnaces. The slag may be used for fill, roadbase or landscaping (Proctor et al. 2002). Other significant sources are the cement industry, mining, and metal refining processes (Kabata-Pendias 2001). Thallium is also used in pesticides, although this has been banned in many industrialised countries, photocells, in the manufacture of glass and as an eutectic.

Thallium is extremely toxic, but little studied. 379 Thallium poisoning affects the central nervous system, causing visual disorders, such as failing eyesight or total blindness, hair loss and ultimately death (Xiao et al. 2004). In studies of Tl toxicity using the amphipod Hyalella azteca, an indicator of the health of the aquatic environment, the toxicity of Tl was found to be similar to that of Cd, Hg and Pb (Borgmann et al. 1998).


The good new; a good diet protects against thallium and any other toxic element. A diet rich in potassium and a body replete in potassium will protect against thallium toxicity. Thallium looks very much like potassium but much heavier and easily takes up positions in enzyme systems. It takes a lot of potassium to push that bugger out.

Alkaline soils high in calcium are protective. Higher pH of the soil protects against many of the heavy metals. Thus calcium protects humans, animals and plants against the accumulation of heavy metals.

Solubility of heavy metals in a contaminated soil: Effects of redox potential and pH

When you do green juices using raw kale as been the trend of late, then you concentrate all that lovely thallium. Super Food or Super Toxin? This is how to detox, are they for real?? Surely, must be joke!! I simply don't know where people come up with this stuff. Hormesis right?? I'd rather a cold shower than raw kale.

Going back to nurture my soil.
 

RobertJM

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For some reason green broths make me feel incredible. Not sure if Mg, Ca or other trace minerals. Would highly recommend as s missing piece of the Peat puzzle. He often mentions well-cooked greens as important.

What's your method of cooking up the broths? So many different interpretations. Surely it would need a lot of green roughage (based on what I have seen on Cronometer with getting anything substantial for kale, broccoli, etc) to rival a quart of OJ for those Peaty minerals. One head of broccoli is really not even that high in those minerals. You need a few heads (at least). But maybe there are other trace minerals at play (like you say).

Maybe buy as much green roughage as you can. Stuff it into a slow cooker. Remove the roughage at the end. Add some seasoning. Could be an awesome mineral supplement.
 

Ella

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I thought magnesium depletion in the soil was pretty much a given at this point.

Well you can come and grow your veggies in my area. The soil has way too much magnesium, which is why we have to increase a shitload of calcium.

One farmer I worked with was so excited about the high magnesium in his bore water that he tried to sell his water to Coca-cola Amatil. They were not interested because it was way too high in magnesium. He was gutted because he spent a lot of money drilling two bores and doing all the testing. He now sells it as bottle water at his pitstop. Easy sell as everyone knows that they are deficient in magnesium. Problem for his chickens as they need the calcium for strong eggshells.
 

aquaman

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What's your method of cooking up the broths? So many different interpretations. Surely it would need a lot of green roughage (based on what I have seen on Cronometer with getting anything substantial for kale, broccoli, etc) to rival a quart of OJ for those Peaty minerals. One head of broccoli is really not even that high in those minerals. You need a few heads (at least). But maybe there are other trace minerals at play (like you say).

Maybe buy as much green roughage as you can. Stuff it into a slow cooker. Remove the roughage at the end. Add some seasoning. Could be an awesome mineral supplement.

Interesting- I just looked up Kale, I use about 100-150grams per portion. I just boiled for 10 mins with salt and a few other veges.

Kale is highest in Vit A and C. Nearly 1000 iu of A, and 120mg of C and 700mcg of K

Nettle looks highest in calcium and Vit K. 100g has 500mg of calcium and 500mcg of K
 

moss

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@moss the only way to know the soil is safe is if you test it for thallium. Whose testing the soil, fertilisers and for that matter the water. Underground water becomes contaminated from mining operations. There is high thallium in many of the fuels used for cars. If you live near a highway or busy road it is in the air, then falls onto your nurtured soil and you don't want to be living near a cement factory.

The primary anthropogenic source of Tl is steel industry slag from blast furnaces, basic oxygen furnaces and electric arc furnaces. The slag may be used for fill, roadbase or landscaping (Proctor et al. 2002). Other significant sources are the cement industry, mining, and metal refining processes (Kabata-Pendias 2001). Thallium is also used in pesticides, although this has been banned in many industrialised countries, photocells, in the manufacture of glass and as an eutectic.

Thallium is extremely toxic, but little studied. 379 Thallium poisoning affects the central nervous system, causing visual disorders, such as failing eyesight or total blindness, hair loss and ultimately death (Xiao et al. 2004). In studies of Tl toxicity using the amphipod Hyalella azteca, an indicator of the health of the aquatic environment, the toxicity of Tl was found to be similar to that of Cd, Hg and Pb (Borgmann et al. 1998).


The good new; a good diet protects against thallium and any other toxic element. A diet rich in potassium and a body replete in potassium will protect against thallium toxicity. Thallium looks very much like potassium but much heavier and easily takes up positions in enzyme systems. It takes a lot of potassium to push that bugger out.

Alkaline soils high in calcium are protective. Higher pH of the soil protects against many of the heavy metals. Thus calcium protects humans, animals and plants against the accumulation of heavy metals.

Solubility of heavy metals in a contaminated soil: Effects of redox potential and pH

When you do green juices using raw kale as been the trend of late, then you concentrate all that lovely thallium. Super Food or Super Toxin? This is how to detox, are they for real?? Surely, must be joke!! I simply don't know where people come up with this stuff. Hormesis right?? I'd rather a cold shower than raw kale.

Going back to nurture my soil.

@Ella

Agree wholeheartedly that soil contamination is of great concern.

You have given folks here the heads-up about possible Thallium contamination and so it pays to be mindful where you source your kale, thanks.

Heavy metals are impossible to avoid completely and I don't live beside a busy road, or in a smog filled city, or near a cement factory or anywhere near open cut coal mines (Hunter Valley comes to mind) where miles upon miles of uncovered coal trains snake their way past the landscape dusting the food bowls, vineyards and choking the residents with coal dust.

We can make a choice to build healthy soil structures and grow a few vegs even in a limited space.

When you do green juices using raw kale as been the trend of late, then you concentrate all that lovely thallium. Super Food or Super Toxin? This is how to detox, are they for real?? Surely, must be joke!! I simply don't know where people come up with this stuff. Hormesis right?? I'd rather a cold shower than raw kale.

Yah, there are a lot of idjits about.
 
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Sheik

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I recall people avoiding green tea due to high fluoride content. Does anyone know if kale broth is any better in that regard?
 

Ella

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@moss, knowing that we have plants like kale that are super bioaccumulators of heavy metals such as thallium, lead, cadmium, arsenic and mercury; we can use to our advantage to remediate our contaminated soils.

That's interesting about the Hunter Valley - the food bowl of Australia. It makes you also wonder about the other inputs such as fertilisers. Many of the farmers are sold fertilisers that are contaminated with fly ash.

We have reason to believe that some growers (on both non-organic and organic farms) may be using coal-ash-based fertilizer or manure that contains thallium. You can track the history of the coal-ash industry, the rise of coal-fired electrical generating plants in this country, and their track record on waste disposal. The picture that emerges is that the environment has been polluted by toxic heavy metals, including thallium, for at least a decade.

Thallium Exposure (FebMarch 2016) Townsend Letter, Alternative Medicine Magazine


Organic farming is becoming a joke. The farmer and the consumer are always the losers, while the middle man reaps the profits. Don't even get me going on free-range :(

Thallium became a big issue for me when I saw it turn up in some of my Queensland clients. I tested their water, soil and even benchtop materials. It did my head in trying to find the source. I can understand rural Queensland being an issue but not residing close to Brisbane. Their alt drs never picked up on the high thallium but convinced them that mercury was the issue due to a couple almagam fillings. It showed up in their hair and urine and still these stupid drs missed the thallium. There was no evidence of mercury ever being an issue from results of hair, urine or serum. Still, I had a hard time convincing my clients about the thallium, even though it was there in all the different results going back > than 5 yrs in some. They had been so indocrinated about the toxicity of mercury that I could not get them to see that thallium was their issue. **** what would I know? Why didn't I not understand that mercury is a toxin when clearly every man and his dog knew this about mercury. Their alt drs, just happened to have a vested interest in amalgum removal. The thallium stuck out like dog's balls, but nobody was seeing it as an issue.

Good news is that getting rid of thallium required no chelation - just a good diet :). The thallium levels where at dangerous levels. The GP, I was working with was absolutely gobsmacked. He had one hell of an education that he will certainly never forget, nor will I.

After that experience, I can appreciate Dr Peat's stance on cruciferous vegetables and above ground vegetables and why fruits are preferred. We can perhaps reduce goitrogens in cruciferous vegetables by cooking them to death but thallium is an entirely different beast. The fruit of a plant are the safest and not likely to have accumulated thallium and other heavy metals.

People say why do you spend so much time growing potatoes for example, when they are so cheap to buy. Even organic ones. I trust no-one and trust only myself to care for my soil. Eating healthy is an extremely long conversation.
 

moss

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@moss, knowing that we have plants like kale that are super bioaccumulators of heavy metals such as thallium, lead, cadmium, arsenic and mercury; we can use to our advantage to remediate our contaminated soils.

Now there's a campaign 'Your Country Needs You Now Plant a Kale Today'

That's interesting about the Hunter Valley - the food bowl of Australia. It makes you also wonder about the other inputs such as fertilisers. Many of the farmers are sold fertilisers that are contaminated with fly ash.

It's one of many food bowls and fine ash particles can travel a long way, what about cotton farm spraying.

Organic farming is becoming a joke. The farmer and the consumer are always the losers, while the middle man reaps the profits. Don't even get me going on free-range :(

I use to say "It's organic, don't panic" and revised that a good while ago.

I'm not so sure farmers are always the losers, they can educate themselves wrt to fertilisers, sprays and they do have a choice, many pander to supermarket chains and consumers also can make a choice not to buy sub quality food.

Thallium became a big issue for me when I saw it turn up in some of my Queensland clients. I tested their water, soil and even benchtop materials. It did my head in trying to find the source. I can understand rural Queensland being an issue but not residing close to Brisbane. Their alt drs never picked up on the high thallium but convinced them that mercury was the issue due to a couple almagam fillings. It showed up in their hair and urine and still these stupid drs missed the thallium. There was no evidence of mercury ever being an issue from results of hair, urine or serum. Still, I had a hard time convincing my clients about the thallium, even though it was there in all the different results going back > than 5 yrs in some. They had been so indocrinated about the toxicity of mercury that I could not get them to see that thallium was their issue. **** what would I know? Why didn't I not understand that mercury is a toxin when clearly every man and his dog knew this about mercury. Their alt drs, just happened to have a vested interest in amalgum removal. The thallium stuck out like dog's balls, but nobody was seeing it as an issue.

Interesting, what about seafood we are at the end of the food chain? or did you find the source of contamination?

Good news is that getting rid of thallium required no chelation - just a good diet :). The thallium levels where at dangerous levels. The GP, I was working with was absolutely gobsmacked. He had one hell of an education that he will certainly never forget, nor will I.

That is good news and I am sure you gave him a run for his money :nailbiting:

You can't know what you don't know and hopefully, he shared the info with his colleagues.

After that experience, I can appreciate Dr Peat's stance on cruciferous vegetables and above ground vegetables and why fruits are preferred. We can perhaps reduce goitrogens in cruciferous vegetables by cooking them to death but thallium is an entirely different beast. The fruit of a plant are the safest and not likely to have accumulated thallium and other heavy metals.

Again, thanks for pointing thallium out.

People say why do you spend so much time growing potatoes for example when they are so cheap to buy. Even organic ones. I trust no-one and trust only myself to care for my soil. Eating healthy is an extremely long conversation.

I'm sure your produce is amazing. Main thing is to enjoy food.
 
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Wagner83

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I don't worry about the nutrients because it's futile. You'll never know the exact amount of nutrients in any foods unless you tested them in lab. A plant can not grow without nutrients so I disagree with the notion that our soils our "depleted." It's best to only eat greens cooked. Steaming for even just a few minutes is good. I make broth and eat the leaves too. As far as satiation, leafy greens aren't meant to satisfy. They don't provide enough carbohydrate to satisfy, unlike rice and some roots, and fruits. I eat greens for their minerals, protein, and possibly undiscovered/unstudied phytochemicals and vitamin K1. Kale is also a source of a special nutrient called kaempferol, as well as lutein, zeaxanthin, folic acid and glucosinolates which produce cancer preventive compounds. I'm not worried about getting enough of things, I'm worried about getting too much.

Not everyone can or wants to do dairy so cooked greens are what they use. People who are anti-greens will often ignore the negatives of dairy. It's a gamble. You can choose to have dairy as your Ca, Mg, and other nutrients source or you can choose cooked greens/green broth, both have positives and negatives. Or you can consume both greens and dairy.

Mg. is in other foods as well so you shouldn't be only looking at the content of Mg. in greens if you're eating other foods that have Mg. They can all be used for total Mg.

Spinach has more anti-nutrients than Kale and even Peat thinks spinach is good:

"If they are organically grown without intense nitrate fertilization and if it’s well cooked, I think spinach is good food." - RP

K1 is required for green plants to conduct the process of photosynthesis. The K2 form of vitamin K is made from K1 and K3 by bacteria and other microorganisms. It can also be made in the human body through a conversion process involving K1 and K3. Since vitamin K is easily obtained from the diet and synthesized in the body, deficiencies are rare and usually occur only when there is malabsorption due to bowel obstruction, sprue, bowel shunts, regional ileitis, ulcerative colitis, or chronic liver disease. Vitamin K is given prophylactically to infants at birth to prevent hemorrhage, and presurgically to people who have bleeding and clotting disorders. Vitamin K is a general term used to describe a group of similar compounds, including K1, which is found in foods; K2, which is made by our intestinal bacteria; and K3, a synthetic form that is available only by prescription. Since vitamin K is widely available in foods and made in our bodies, supplements are necessary only in cases of malabsorption or medical disorders, or at birth to prevent hemorrhaging in newborns, or if you just wanted to take it for your own purposes. Only the K3 form of vitamin K—the synthetic form—is known to have any degree of toxicity. The major symptom of vitamin K overdose is hemolytic anemia, in which the red blood cells die more quickly than the body can replace them.

Nattō is fermented which means the anti-thyroid compounds removed and is a source of K2.

Vitamin K2 can also be made in the liver, pancreas, and other organs, showing we do convert K1 to K2 and K4 as well as the remaining K vitamins:

Conversion of dietary phylloquinone to tissue menaquinone-4 in rats is not dependent on gut bacteria. - PubMed - NCBI

The reason why greens are high in magnesium is because of chlorophyll.

View attachment 3006
The small polyphenolic molecule kaempferol increases cellular energy expenditure and thyroid hormone activation. - PubMed - NCBI
 

Wagner83

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I've heard Peat mention (KMUD) that greens like kale can have oxalates. To remove them, add a pinch of baking soda while cooking.
@Travis, is this true?

I have some concerns for the spinach broth I'm currently drinking (not to mention the nitrates):

Effect of different cooking methods on vegetable oxalate content. - PubMed - NCBI

J Agric Food Chem. 2005 Apr 20;53(8):3027-30.
Effect of different cooking methods on vegetable oxalate content.
Chai W1, Liebman M.
Author information
Abstract

Approximately 75% of all kidney stones are composed primarily of calcium oxalate, and hyperoxaluria is a primary risk factor for this disorder. Nine types of raw and cooked vegetables were analyzed for oxalate using an enzymatic method. There was a high proportion of water-soluble oxalate in most of the tested raw vegetables. Boiling markedly reduced soluble oxalate content by 30-87% and was more effective than steaming (5-53%) and baking (used only for potatoes, no oxalate loss). An assessment of the oxalate content of cooking water used for boiling and steaming revealed an approximately 100% recovery of oxalate losses. The losses of insoluble oxalate during cooking varied greatly, ranging from 0 to 74%. Because soluble sources of oxalate appear to be better absorbed than insoluble sources, employing cooking methods that significantly reduce soluble oxalate may be an effective strategy for decreasing oxaluria in individuals predisposed to the development of kidney stones.

---------------------------------------------

This should be interesting granting one finds the full text:
Comparison of vitamin losses in vegetables due to various cooking methods. - PubMed - NCBI
J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo). 1990;36 Suppl 1:S7-14; discussion S14-5.
Comparison of vitamin losses in vegetables due to various cooking methods.
Rumm-Kreuter D1, Demmel I.
Author information
Abstract

Preparing vegetables with heat the contents of their constituents will change to a various extent. Particularly the water-soluble and the heat-sensitive vitamins are affected. At an early stage the vitamin C losses were investigated, because of vitamin C's indicating function for oxidation and leaching-out processes (1, 2, 7, 11-13, 15, 17). The degree of vitamin losses is influenced by various factors, for example the type of food, variety of vegetables, the way of cutting, preparation, duration and method of cooking. The influence of the various cooking methods with regard to the losses of certain water-soluble vitamins will be discussed.
 

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