Cutting Out Homogenised Dairy Has Cleared All My Digestive Issues, Including Geographic Tongue

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May 29, 2013
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Since switching to unhomogenised milk, the white patchy coating on my tongue has cleared up completely and not returned, my stools have been very unsticky meaning I haven’t had to wipe, and I’ve generally felt more satiated by dairy.

Some of you might recognise that I’ve posted numerous times about my tongue issues. I’ve thought I was so close to cracking it so many times, but then the symptoms would just return and I couldn’t explain it. But since cutting out homogenised I’ve not had a single relapse. It’s been a month so far.

I can’t reallt comment on the mechanism of action, but I’m aware of a vague relationship between geographic tongue and autoimmune disease, as well as homogenisation and the persorption of fat particles into the bloodstream.

If anyone could share more light on a possible connection that’d be much appreciated.
 

EIRE24

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Since switching to unhomogenised milk, the white patchy coating on my tongue has cleared up completely and not returned, my stools have been very unsticky meaning I haven’t had to wipe, and I’ve generally felt more satiated by dairy.

Some of you might recognise that I’ve posted numerous times about my tongue issues. I’ve thought I was so close to cracking it so many times, but then the symptoms would just return and I couldn’t explain it. But since cutting out homogenised I’ve not had a single relapse. It’s been a month so far.

I can’t reallt comment on the mechanism of action, but I’m aware of a vague relationship between geographic tongue and autoimmune disease, as well as homogenisation and the persorption of fat particles into the bloodstream.

If anyone could share more light on a possible connection that’d be much appreciated.
unhomogenised being raw milk?
 

RobertJM

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The Sainsbury's in my city sells this one (semi skimmed). For those who don't want so much fat:
 

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The Sainsbury's in my city sells this one (semi skimmed). For those who don't want so much fat:

Cheers for this. Didn’t know Sainsbury’s did it. Waitrose also have a semi-skimmed unhomogenised, but it’s a bit pricey.

Seriously, I’d try the switch if you have digestive issues and you’re drinking milk.
 

RobertJM

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The sainsburys website says that Graham's is homogenised are there different types?

Sainsbury's - Please enable cookies or JavaScript

Yes it's definitely not homogenised. Are you definitely looking at the same one? I think Graham's maybe do a few different ones (although I wouldn't know personally). But here is the one I buy (semi skimmed), and it says it's not homogenised on the bottle, too. But here is another pic with a snippet of information about it (paragraph three for the homogenised info):
 

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CLASH

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@Dannywharton
Clinical Context To Ray's Theoretical Context

"Some statements on milk (this is from one of my responses to @Mossy on the forum)

1)milk contains bioactive peptides that are released from the hydrolysis of the proteins in the stomach. The peptides function from antibacterial, to anti-hypertensive etc. (lactoferrin, lysozyme etc.)

2) pastuerization destroys the protein structure, the reason the temperatures for pasteurizarion are what they are is to denature enzymes (heats damages proteins, its basic basic biology, present in the beggining of every bio text book. Haha I dont mean to sound like gbolduev, I promise :)) by destroying the protein structure with pasteurization I think the bioactivity and digestibility of milk is negatively effected For alot of people

3) the fat structure of milk with casein and calcium is unique and beneficial for us

4) homegenization destroys this structure (if energy and structure are related and structure is determinant of the state of organic molecules function then destroying the structure in my mind doesnt seem to ideal) homogenization forces the fat globules at high pressure through porous membranes if im not mistaken. This breaks them thus damaging the structure and the digestibility.

5) raw milk contains bacteria that are supposed to colonize the gut and establish an ecosystem. It is our starter flora. Pasteurization messes this up.

6) A1 milk has a substitution of histidine for proline in BCM-7 and opioid like peptide that gets hydrolyzed from casein. The histidine amino acid changed the structure allowing BCM-7 to become free and induce opioid/ inflammatory effects on the GI tract. (Look up the 4 phases of protein structure online, its makes alot of sense if u consider all of these things in that context). There are published studies online in vivo in people showing this. Also in vivo in rats with direct immune markers showing this.

7) goat milk is the closest to breast milk in numerous ways. Its much easier to digest. In the 1800s babiese were given goat milk as formula by midwives because it was superior to cows milk when mothers couldnt nurse. it has a higher amount of GOS (galactoligosaccharides) which allow for the specific fermentation of bifido and lactobacillus among many other components.

Basically milk is an antibiotic, that contains the right bacteria and the right substrate for them to ferment. It is the cure for the gut I think. As long as it is the right type. The devil is always in the details. I think ray misses some of the details but his overall paradigm is very sound."

The structure may have something to do with it. Fats are also antibacterial, perhaps they protect the milk from opportunistic bacteria.
 
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Thanks, CLASH. I did read your post and found it very helpful and practical. I’d planned on trying raw milk but was still trialing unhomogenised to good results.

This might not be the place for it, but what’s your view of fat gain with raw milk? I’m currently only craving milk, animal protein, and the odd fruits here and there.

@Dannywharton
Clinical Context To Ray's Theoretical Context

"Some statements on milk (this is from one of my responses to @Mossy on the forum)

1)milk contains bioactive peptides that are released from the hydrolysis of the proteins in the stomach. The peptides function from antibacterial, to anti-hypertensive etc. (lactoferrin, lysozyme etc.)

2) pastuerization destroys the protein structure, the reason the temperatures for pasteurizarion are what they are is to denature enzymes (heats damages proteins, its basic basic biology, present in the beggining of every bio text book. Haha I dont mean to sound like gbolduev, I promise :)) by destroying the protein structure with pasteurization I think the bioactivity and digestibility of milk is negatively effected For alot of people

3) the fat structure of milk with casein and calcium is unique and beneficial for us

4) homegenization destroys this structure (if energy and structure are related and structure is determinant of the state of organic molecules function then destroying the structure in my mind doesnt seem to ideal) homogenization forces the fat globules at high pressure through porous membranes if im not mistaken. This breaks them thus damaging the structure and the digestibility.

5) raw milk contains bacteria that are supposed to colonize the gut and establish an ecosystem. It is our starter flora. Pasteurization messes this up.

6) A1 milk has a substitution of histidine for proline in BCM-7 and opioid like peptide that gets hydrolyzed from casein. The histidine amino acid changed the structure allowing BCM-7 to become free and induce opioid/ inflammatory effects on the GI tract. (Look up the 4 phases of protein structure online, its makes alot of sense if u consider all of these things in that context). There are published studies online in vivo in people showing this. Also in vivo in rats with direct immune markers showing this.

7) goat milk is the closest to breast milk in numerous ways. Its much easier to digest. In the 1800s babiese were given goat milk as formula by midwives because it was superior to cows milk when mothers couldnt nurse. it has a higher amount of GOS (galactoligosaccharides) which allow for the specific fermentation of bifido and lactobacillus among many other components.

Basically milk is an antibiotic, that contains the right bacteria and the right substrate for them to ferment. It is the cure for the gut I think. As long as it is the right type. The devil is always in the details. I think ray misses some of the details but his overall paradigm is very sound."

The structure may have something to do with it. Fats are also antibacterial, perhaps they protect the milk from opportunistic bacteria.
 

michael94

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Clash, I disagree with/will clarify a few points ( silence will affirm the others ).

The exact temperature matters, hence why vat pasteurized milk tastes smoother/less cooked. Most milks are pasteurized above the critical 160F or so. This has positives and negatives. Same with homgenization, especially if vile is low... it will be very difficult to hydrolyze and digest large amounts of the unhomogenized fat.

Cows are more Beautiful than goats and their milk tastes better. Cows can have A2 protein, also.

Words like antibacterial are thrown around so much and misunderstood because of it. For example, most people are infected with h pylori which destroys beauty and causes sluggishness but they are dependent on this bug for immune function. H pylori is negatively associated with ibs/crohns/ athsma. So sometimes we trade big problems for smaller ones. Remember that what matters is restoring the function/structure of the cells. Antiobiotic/probiotic are convenient but dangerous terms.

Raw milk unless drunk right away would benefit a lot from being stored with some sort of protective substance, like erythritol/xylitol or a small piece of silver and gold... Yes Raw milk ideal, but nature on this world is very hostile because it is under control of the dark forces. So we have to protect our food and ourselves.

Have you ever stared at the Sun and it was too bright to keep your gaze? This is how an important insight into Raw, unprocessed foods. You need to be ready for "It" or you'll hurt yourself. Stay Green
 

jitsmonkey

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and yet others can only drink milk if is boiled and warm without discomfort/negative symptoms.
Always interesting to see experiences that validate the need to avoid creation of a narrative/rule around a particular substance/practice. perceive.think.act appears to be the only rule that consistently applies.
 

CLASH

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Clash, I disagree with/will clarify a few points ( silence will affirm the others ).

1) The exact temperature matters, hence why vat pasteurized milk tastes smoother/less cooked. Most milks are pasteurized above the critical 160F or so. This has positives and negatives.

"Heat treatment also leads to denaturation of whey protein and the formation of whey protein-casein polymer, which has negative effects on milk product."

"The results showed that the denaturation degree of whey protein and the combination degree of whey protein with casein extended with the increase of the heat-treated temperature and time."

"When milk is heated at temperatures range from 70 to 100°C, the whey protein, which mainly includes α-lactalbumin (α-La) and β-lactoglobulin (β-Lg), can denature due to heat treatment, while the structure of the casein micelle is not obviously changed (Vasbinder and de Kruif, 2003). Following conformation changes, thiol of β-Lg exposed. the thiol group of β-Lg will be exposed. Disulfide associated with other active thiol group will be generated, which can lead to the denaturation irreversibly"
Experimental and Modelling Study of the Denaturation of Milk Protein by Heat Treatment

-"Thus, industrial heating may improve the digestibility of milk proteins by denaturation, but the improvement is likely to be offset by heat-derived modifications involved in decreased protein digestibility."
Effects of different industrial heating processes of milk on site-specific protein modifications and their relationship to in vitro and in vivo diges... - PubMed - NCBI



2) Same with homgenization, especially if vile is low... it will be very difficult to hydrolyze and digest large amounts of the unhomogenized fat.

Form is function, energy is interrelated with structure. There are entire books written on homogenization.
-"Homogenization and heat treatment led to formation of coagula with fragmented and crumbled structures compared with the coagulum formed from raw whole milk"
http://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(16)30788-3/abstract



-I find this hard to believe considering milk is the first thing given to babies... goat milk, which I recommened has smaller globules with no agglutinin so it doesnt need to be homogenized.

3) "Cows are more Beautiful than goats and their milk tastes better. Cows can have A2 protein, also."

-The BCM-7 referenced cow milk specifically. Goat milk doesnt contain the mutation. Depends on the breed of goat and I think this is subjective overall.



4)Words like antibacterial are thrown around so much and misunderstood because of it. For example, most people are infected with h pylori which destroys beauty and causes sluggishness but they are dependent on this bug for immune function. H pylori is negatively associated with ibs/crohns/ athsma. So sometimes we trade big problems for smaller ones. Remember that what matters is restoring the function/structure of the cells. Antiobiotic/probiotic are convenient but dangerous terms.

-this is to restore structure and function to cells by inhibiting endotoxin which elevates the serotonin cascade. I'm not talking about singular pharmaceutical/ industrial drugs or probiotic supplements. I am talking about the substance we first recieve as infants that develops our GI flora and function. Your immune system is dependent on this. These terms were in the context of the milk itself. I was talking about creating the correct flora with the substance that originally does this for us.

5)Raw milk unless drunk right away would benefit a lot from being stored with some sort of protective substance, like erythritol/xylitol or a small piece of silver and gold... Yes Raw milk ideal, but nature on this world is very hostile because it is under control of the dark forces. So we have to protect our food and ourselves.

- why is this? Studies show pathogenic bacterial are unable to survive in raw milk or thier counts are decreased. I would say your more likely to get sick from vegetables. Depends on where you get your food from. Pasteurization is in its infancy in terms of the span that milk has been around in the human diet.


6) Have you ever stared at the Sun and it was too bright to keep your gaze? This is how an important insight into Raw, unprocessed foods. You need to be ready for "It" or you'll hurt yourself. Stay Green

-I dont think this really relates, I'm not suggesting to drink gallons of raw milk a day which is akin to the dose analogy with starring at the sun.
 

CLASH

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@Dannywharton
I think it depends on how much fat is in the milk And your expeeience with it. I drink whole goat milk and gained weight initially weigh but i was 10% bodyfat to start (96 oz per day about). I am 6'2", 196lbs for reference. I am more like 12-14% now but thats probablt healthier (I also increased my carbs by 100g during this time). If this says anything I think its to try it out and see what works for you.
 

CLASH

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@jitsmonkey
Why do you think this would be? If there is a difference (i am not sure if there is) then there has to be a mechanism to explain it. The "think" part is important in the phrase to understand the mechanism IMO.
 

jitsmonkey

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@jitsmonkey
Why do you think this would be? If there is a difference (i am not sure if there is) then there has to be a mechanism to explain it. The "think" part is important in the phrase to understand the mechanism IMO.

I honestly don't know and frankly I don't think anyone does.
It certainly would appear to be a function of the individual metabolism.
I wasn't suggesting trying to understand the mechanism was a bad idea.
Sadly though more often than not "trying to understand" is more about being "right" so people will create whatever narative/story they need to
to make their "thinking" "right". Why raw milk? There's an excellent narrative that makes perfect sense around that. But clearly for a certain amount of the population its not "right". Why boiled milk? Why homog. milk? All have narratives/stories that are believable and sensible.
Thinking and trying to understand the mechanism is great and encouraged.
Its also equally acceptable to conclude "I don't know but it works for me right now"
I always assume that in spite of me personally finding great success with what I've learned from Ray he could be completely wrong. And in turn I could be completely wrong.
At the end of the day you've got to bet on someone/something based upon your perceiving. thinking. acting. But you still don't "know" until the show ends, and then it won't matter ;-)
 

Dave Clark

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I had read that cow's milk takes about 2 hours to digest compared to goat's milk which takes twenty minutes, not sure if that is an accurate assessment. If so, most likely because of the lesser fat content, and different proteins. I love both if they are raw organic grass-fed.
 

Mossy

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Since switching to unhomogenised milk, the white patchy coating on my tongue has cleared up completely and not returned, my stools have been very unsticky meaning I haven’t had to wipe, and I’ve generally felt more satiated by dairy.

Some of you might recognise that I’ve posted numerous times about my tongue issues. I’ve thought I was so close to cracking it so many times, but then the symptoms would just return and I couldn’t explain it. But since cutting out homogenised I’ve not had a single relapse. It’s been a month so far.

I can’t reallt comment on the mechanism of action, but I’m aware of a vague relationship between geographic tongue and autoimmune disease, as well as homogenisation and the persorption of fat particles into the bloodstream.

If anyone could share more light on a possible connection that’d be much appreciated.
Glad to hear of your success. I had fought similar symptoms and found my greatest success with Peating, though I can't pinpoint it to one specific thing. I do remember reading about the damage of homogenized milk, and was motivated to look into it after readying your post, and the recent postings by @CLASH. I did locate the exact article I read, but should note this site could be considered questionable, but doesn't necessarily make them wrong. Funny enough, the paragraph directly under this one goes on to demonize refined sugar.

Maybe this will be of interest to some:

"Homogenized milk is one reason why heart disease is the number one killer in America, and we suspect that it could actually be the main culprit. Homogenization causes the fat in milk to be broken into such tiny particles that milk does not separate from its cream. These fat particles are so unnaturally small that they are absorbed directly into the bloodstream without proper digestion. These undigested fat particles stress the immune system greatly and cause extreme inflammation. There is an enzyme in cow's milk that becomes dangerous whenever milk is homogenized. It is called "xanthine oxidase" or simply "XO". This enzyme is used by young calves to aid with digestion, but it causes cardiovascular disease in humans whenever it is unbound from the fat by homogenization. With raw, or even pasteurized milk (creamline milk), this toxic substance is not absorbed into the blood. Prior to homogenization, this offensive enzyme was always chemically bound inside milk fats, which were too large to enter into the human bloodstream undigested. The natural particle size of fat inside unadulterated cow's milk acts as a shield to protect humans from the milk's xanthine oxidase. Homogenized milk should always be avoided, but if complete avoidance is not an option, then some of its negative effects can be neutralized with folate or folic acid supplements combined with vitamin C. Folic acid is inferior to folate for supplementation purposes. Be advised that the homogenized fats will still be damaging to the heart, even if the arteries are somewhat shielded from the xanthine oxidase. We recommend whole creamline (non-homogenized) milk, which can be found at many health food stores. There is no significant benefit to using raw milk over pasteurized milk, so our recommendation is to simply stay with sterile milk.

"Bovine milk xanthine oxidase (BMXO) may be absorbed and may enter the cardiovascular system. People with clinical signs of atherosclerosis have greater quantities of BMXO antibodies. BMXO antibodies are found in greater quantities in those patients who consume the largest volumes of homogenized milk and milk products."

-- The XO Factor, by Kurt Oster, M.D. and Donald Ross, Ph.D.

Most soft dairy products are made with homogenized milk. Although they are rarely labeled as being so. Some people eat yogurt in an attempt to become healthier, and it is something that we have recommended many times in the past. Overall, yogurt usually helps more than it harms, but due to homogenization, it is not as healthy as most people believe. Most soft dairy products will cause inflammation and arterial damage, because of homogenization. Those who eat homogenized products should compensate somewhat with vitamin C and folate (or folic acid), in order to shield the body. Hard cheeses and butter are currently not being made with homogenized milk, so they are safe. Goat milk and products made from it are safe, because goat milk is never homogenized."

The Big One: Naturally Preventing and Curing Heart Disease
 
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Mossy

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I honestly don't know and frankly I don't think anyone does.
It certainly would appear to be a function of the individual metabolism.
I wasn't suggesting trying to understand the mechanism was a bad idea.
Sadly though more often than not "trying to understand" is more about being "right" so people will create whatever narative/story they need to
to make their "thinking" "right". Why raw milk? There's an excellent narrative that makes perfect sense around that. But clearly for a certain amount of the population its not "right". Why boiled milk? Why homog. milk? All have narratives/stories that are believable and sensible.
Thinking and trying to understand the mechanism is great and encouraged.
Its also equally acceptable to conclude "I don't know but it works for me right now"
I always assume that in spite of me personally finding great success with what I've learned from Ray he could be completely wrong. And in turn I could be completely wrong.
At the end of the day you've got to bet on someone/something based upon your perceiving. thinking. acting. But you still don't "know" until the show ends, and then it won't matter ;-)

Hello, just attempting to respectfully chime in.

For what it's worth, I like the idea of attempting to frame up some of Peat's ideas into a more applicable outline. One of my favorite quotes is, "To desire action, is to desire limitation". - G.K. Chesterton. You have to start framing/limiting in order to move forward or attempt to get to the truth. How else do you establish any position unless you think you're right? It's not a crime to think you're right, but it would a crime to think you're right once you've been proven wrong. But, you have to have a "narrative/story" to begin with, before it can be proven right, wrong, or half-way.

Thought this might add to the conversation, and the pursuit of truth in Peating and health in general. If not, you can tell me where to go. ;)
 

jitsmonkey

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My personal opinion is the assumption that there's a "truth" is a serious fault in your premise.
But you absolutely should pursue that premise until you decide its not necessary.
Or maybe you won't. Either way you'll be pleased with your decision.
Its not a crime at all to be "right" or want to be "right" I just don't care that's all. Its not a priority for me.
Everything I'm saying in this comment could be completely **** backward wrong.
I'm ok with that. You have to bet on a horse. This is the horse I'm betting on.
I'm more interested in what works than what's right. The narrative is irrelevant to me.
It doesn't have to be for you. We can hold two (or more) dissonant thoughts at the same time.
Its cool.

As an addendum
this particular discussion of Raw vs Past vs homog etc... has been brewing for all 40+ years I've been alive I've found myself on all sides of it. Find the one that works for you and do it. If you don't know where to start, pick the narrative you like best and try it. ALL of the narratives contain misinformation. Your only "right" will come from testing it.
 
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sladerunner69

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Glad to hear of your success. I had fought similar symptoms and found my greatest success with Peating, though I can't pinpoint it to one specific thing. I do remember reading about the damage of homogenized milk, and was motivated to look into it after readying your post, and the recent postings by @CLASH. I did locate the exact article I read, but should note this site could be considered questionable, but doesn't necessarily make them wrong. Funny enough, the paragraph directly under this one goes on to demonize refined sugar.

Maybe this will be of interest to some:

"Homogenized milk is one reason why heart disease is the number one killer in America, and we suspect that it could actually be the main culprit. Homogenization causes the fat in milk to be broken into such tiny particles that milk does not separate from its cream. These fat particles are so unnaturally small that they are absorbed directly into the bloodstream without proper digestion. These undigested fat particles stress the immune system greatly and cause extreme inflammation. There is an enzyme in cow's milk that becomes dangerous whenever milk is homogenized. It is called "xanthine oxidase" or simply "XO". This enzyme is used by young calves to aid with digestion, but it causes cardiovascular disease in humans whenever it is unbound from the fat by homogenization. With raw, or even pasteurized milk (creamline milk), this toxic substance is not absorbed into the blood. Prior to homogenization, this offensive enzyme was always chemically bound inside milk fats, which were too large to enter into the human bloodstream undigested. The natural particle size of fat inside unadulterated cow's milk acts as a shield to protect humans from the milk's xanthine oxidase. Homogenized milk should always be avoided, but if complete avoidance is not an option, then some of its negative effects can be neutralized with folate or folic acid supplements combined with vitamin C. Folic acid is inferior to folate for supplementation purposes. Be advised that the homogenized fats will still be damaging to the heart, even if the arteries are somewhat shielded from the xanthine oxidase. We recommend whole creamline (non-homogenized) milk, which can be found at many health food stores. There is no significant benefit to using raw milk over pasteurized milk, so our recommendation is to simply stay with sterile milk.

"Bovine milk xanthine oxidase (BMXO) may be absorbed and may enter the cardiovascular system. People with clinical signs of atherosclerosis have greater quantities of BMXO antibodies. BMXO antibodies are found in greater quantities in those patients who consume the largest volumes of homogenized milk and milk products."

-- The XO Factor, by Kurt Oster, M.D. and Donald Ross, Ph.D.

Most soft dairy products are made with homogenized milk. Although they are rarely labeled as being so. Some people eat yogurt in an attempt to become healthier, and it is something that we have recommended many times in the past. Overall, yogurt usually helps more than it harms, but due to homogenization, it is not as healthy as most people believe. Most soft dairy products will cause inflammation and arterial damage, because of homogenization. Those who eat homogenized products should compensate somewhat with vitamin C and folate (or folic acid), in order to shield the body. Hard cheeses and butter are currently not being made with homogenized milk, so they are safe. Goat milk and products made from it are safe, because goat milk is never homogenized."

The Big One: Naturally Preventing and Curing Heart Disease


If homoegenized milk was the"primary cause of heart disease", then can you please explain how you think nobody on this forum has struggled with heart disease? Ray Peat has averaged A GALLON of homogenized milk PER DAY for just about 40 YEARS. Where is his heart disease? Surely an individual with his knowledge, and observational capacity would notice if the enzyme Xanthine Oxidase was causing the extreme levels of inflammtion and gut distress that you claim. BTW I was not able to find any conclusive inflormation or data on such an enzyme.

On the contrary, I am thoroughly less inflamed when consuming steady milk through the day. Much less inflamed, and my gut functions perfectly and I feel ellated and joyful. Many forum memeber share this experience. I strongly suspect that the studies demonstrating the damage cause by Xanthine Oxidase simply committed the classical error of attributing causality to correlation. Out of the entire population, if people who suffer serious heart disease have increased levels of BMXO, it doesn't at all indicate that dairy causes heart disease. There are a wide number of other possible explanations, but go ahead and follow the most simplistic one if that suits you.
 
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