Thiamine (B1) Dangeroues If Low In Potassium?

[griesburner]

Hello,

i was interested in supplementing Thiamine, cause i read so much positive things on it :)

Anyway, before i supplement something i always read several more websites and randomly i found this:
Potassium and Thiamin (Vitamin B-1) in Heart Disease

I dont know the exact background of this page, but according to this it sounds very dangerous to supplement with thiamine (B1), when someone is low in pottasium.

I think this study on rats showed the same, but im not sure:
Thiamine and Potassium Deficiency in the Rat | Nutrition Reviews | Oxford Academic

Maybe the website above states his warnings from this study?

So, if thats true that a defiency in both (potassium and thiamine) is somehow protective, would it realy be dangerous to supplement with thiamine? Or to eat potassium rich foods if someone is deficient in thiamine?
And could the dangers be eliminated through supplementing both substances at the same time? But then, in what realtions? 100mg thiamine for 500mg potassium? I didnt found any solutions on this website so maybe someone here has got experiences with beeing low in potassium but still supplements thiamine with no problems?

 

[paymanz]

Its better to ensure you get enough manganese when supplementing thiamine.

Magnesium also is important for thiamine metabolism, magnesium also keeps potassium in body.

 

[Spokey]

I'd just interpret that as it's dangerous to be deficient in potassium, and doing anything that makes you use potassium is going to make that worse. It seems a bit analogous to the increased need for B6 in an EFA deficient diet, where it could be argued that EFAs prevent skin problems.

 

[alywest]

Hello,

i was interested in supplementing Thiamine, cause i read so much positive things on it :)

Anyway, before i supplement something i always read several more websites and randomly i found this:
Potassium and Thiamin (Vitamin B-1) in Heart Disease

I dont know the exact background of this page, but according to this it sounds very dangerous to supplement with thiamine (B1), when someone is low in pottasium.

I think this study on rats showed the same, but im not sure:
Thiamine and Potassium Deficiency in the Rat | Nutrition Reviews | Oxford Academic

Maybe the website above states his warnings from this study?

So, if thats true that a defiency in both (potassium and thiamine) is somehow protective, would it realy be dangerous to supplement with thiamine? Or to eat potassium rich foods if someone is deficient in thiamine?
And could the dangers be eliminated through supplementing both substances at the same time? But then, in what realtions? 100mg thiamine for 500mg potassium? I didnt found any solutions on this website so maybe someone here has got experiences with beeing low in potassium but still supplements thiamine with no problems?

According to one of the studies, a glass of orange juice contained enough potassium to balance the need after taking 1500 mg of thiamine. So either that or some other potassium rich food should be ok. From a post by Haidut:
"I posted another thread on thiamine and acetazolamide reducing cortisol. The scientists were aware of the increased need for electrolytes while on this therapy and had the patients drink 8oz of orange juice daily. It seems that was all the extra potassium people needed."

 

[griesburner]

I'd just interpret that as it's dangerous to be deficient in potassium, and doing anything that makes you use potassium is going to make that worse

okay that seems to make sense to me ^^ . maybe i will try a bit thiamine then and add more potassium rich foods too to be safe.

 

[Lurker]

Its better to ensure you get enough manganese when supplementing thiamine.

Magnesium also is important for thiamine metabolism, magnesium also keeps potassium in body.

Sounds like something gbolduev would say.

 

[paymanz]

Sounds like something gbolduev would say.

Lol, Good humor

Which part of it? Cause I totally OK with giving credit to whom I learned something from. Magnesium and potassium interaction is very well known.magnesium and thiamin also to some degree.

[Interrelationship Between Manganese, Vitamin B1 And The Level Of Pyruvic Acid]

Aggravation of thiamine deficiency by magnesium depletion. A case report. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Lurker]

Lol, Good humor

Which part of it? Cause I totally OK with giving credit to whom I learned something from. Magnesium and potassium interaction is very well known.magnesium and thiamin also to some degree.

[Interrelationship Between Manganese, Vitamin B1 And The Level Of Pyruvic Acid]

Aggravation of thiamine deficiency by magnesium depletion. A case report. - PubMed - NCBI

Ha ha. I just meant going to the mineral approach rather than vitamins and hormones. I'd never heard anyone here mention manganese so much here before Mr Bolduev. Also talking about potassium in the body (cell). Anyway, it just sounded familiar that's all. We need a little levity in the forum though. It's been a bit tense lately. It hasn't been this bad since the post election bannings. Cheers!

 

[paymanz]

Ha ha. I just meant going to the mineral approach rather than vitamins and hormones. I'd never heard anyone here mention manganese so much here before Mr Bolduev. Also talking about potassium in the body (cell). Anyway, it just sounded familiar that's all. We need a little levity in the forum though. It's been a bit tense lately. It hasn't been this bad since the post election bannings. Cheers!

Thanks thanks

 

[Ell]

One source to learn from is EM Josephson MD, noting how thiamin and Mn must be "balanced" so as to not aggravate thyrotoxicosis. The thymus, myasthenia gravis and manganese, incorporating Myasthenia gravis, manganese & thf [:] thymus.

My understanding is tht Dr. Josephson had quite a bit of clinical experience. From his book I learned that without this information a person experiencing thyrotoxicosis might often be inclined to believe that iodine is causing them problems, when that is not the case at all. Also, those with anemia do not benefit from iron supplementation, anymore than the person with osteopenia or osteoporosis gains relief by eating calcium pills. For the former, cobalt should be looked at, for the latter, considering boron can be productive. Taking uber-gross amounts of thiamin is out of the book in my opinion, consider how much thiamin a normal person eating a hefty portion of one of the more thiamin-rich foods would ever ingest during normal eating, and it is on the order of less than 10 mg. I don't think that for me, overdosing myself with large amounts of thamine is a good idea :) I believe one can get a lot of mileage from the basic concept embodied in this message.

 

[alywest]

One source to learn from is EM Josephson MD, noting how thiamin and Mn must be "balanced" so as to not aggravate thyrotoxicosis. The thymus, myasthenia gravis and manganese, incorporating Myasthenia gravis, manganese & thf [:] thymus.

My understanding is tht Dr. Josephson had quite a bit of clinical experience. From his book I learned that without this information a person experiencing thyrotoxicosis might often be inclined to believe that iodine is causing them problems, when that is not the case at all. Also, those with anemia do not benefit from iron supplementation, anymore than the person with osteopenia or osteoporosis gains relief by eating calcium pills. For the former, cobalt should be looked at, for the latter, considering boron can be productive. Taking uber-gross amounts of thiamin is out of the book in my opinion, consider how much thiamin a normal person eating a hefty portion of one of the more thiamin-rich foods would ever ingest during normal eating, and it is on the order of less than 10 mg. I don't think that for me, overdosing myself with large amounts of thamine is a good idea :) I believe one can get a lot of mileage from the basic concept embodied in this message.

However, for some reason, some people seem to require extremely large doses of thiamine. I'm sure you've seen a lot of the studies posted. I am wondering if it's less of a deficiency thing than a intense need to raise CO2 levels. And you're right it's not just a simple cause and effect. There are multiple aspects at play, like with osteoporosis as you mentioned. Taking K2 with calcium (and the supplement type matters a lot, obviously) and aspirin even helps with osteoporosis according to RP. Vitamin D and A also play a role in bone health, but it's such a complicated interplay of factors, including hormones. For me taking 1,500 mg of thiamine has not affected me negatively in any way and instead has helped immensely. I have always craved coffee like crazy and if I ever stopped drinking it I would get extremely miserable, even beyond the first couple of days of withdrawal. But of course, I am hypothyroid so what you are saying seems to specifically relate to hyperthyroid people.

 

[Ell]

Thank you. I believe Russo showed coffee carcinogenic in 1942 so I avoid it. W.F. Koch MD commented on it as well, forbade his patients involved with advanced metabolic diseaase from having it. The culprit appears to be a furfural mercaptan. Sometimes I look at the folic acid molecule and wonder whether that could be the cause of some people seeing benefit from large amounts of thiamine, looks like the folic acid would bind to the same site that thiamin is supposed to. But, I really don't know. One way to check it would be perhaps if it were me, I would supplement with minorly-excessive amounts of folinic acid or methyl folate, and see if that had any effect on my need of so much thiamin. I'd also avoid anything having the material described as "folic acid" in it, which I do anyway :)

 

[alywest]

Thank you. I believe Russo showed coffee carcinogenic in 1942 so I avoid it. W.F. Koch MD commented on it as well, forbade his patients involved with advanced metabolic diseaase from having it. The culprit appears to be a furfural mercaptan. Sometimes I look at the folic acid molecule and wonder whether that could be the cause of some people seeing benefit from large amounts of thiamine, looks like the folic acid would bind to the same site that thiamin is supposed to. But, I really don't know. One way to check it would be perhaps if it were me, I would supplement with minorly-excessive amounts of folinic acid or methyl folate, and see if that had any effect on my need of so much thiamin. I'd also avoid anything having the material described as "folic acid" in it, which I do anyway :)

Interesting, thank you. I may try the folate experiment. I think I noticed positive results from it in the past, but it was before I tried thiamine.