Contrarian Endocrinology

Xisca

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I have not found much, and googling "contrarian endocrinology" even leads to RPF at 1st page.

It is used to talk about male hormones for females, and female hormones for males.

Here are the links:
https://thinksteroids.com/articles/contrarian-endocrinology-testosterone-women/

https://thinksteroids.com/articles/contrarian-endocrinology-estrogen-men/

http://mindandmuscle.net/articles/contrarian-endocrinology-revisited-estrogen-for-men/

I like quotes like these:
- the fact is that every hormone plays a vital balancing role in the body. Rather than be labeled as “good” or “bad”, each hormone has an optimal equilibrium level in the body with respect to the other sex hormones.

- I have found in my medical practice that giving women estrogen and progesterone and not testosterone makes it almost impossible for them to lose weight/fat.

- Birth control pills elevate estrogen and progesterone levels while drastically lowering testosterone levels. This is reason why many women experience large gains in fat as well as a decreased libido when using birth control pills.

- By taking a hormone you don’t need, you can cause the very condition you were attempting to treat.



- Natural progesterone can have a calming, relaxing effect on women, but the nasty synthetic and potent progestins can actually cause irritability.


- The stimulatory effects of estrogen on our neurotransmitter systems and other aspects of the central nervous system may be a major reason why some men get a big boost of energy and libido when their estrogen levels rise.

- It should be noted that finding the “optimal” or “normal” level of estrogen for men is extremely problematic.

- Since most men experience an increase instead of a decrease in estrogen as they get older, little attention is paid to the importance of estrogen deficiency in men. It has recently been shown that too little estrogen is linked to male osteoporosis.

- progesterone is best not considered as a female hormone, but as a hormone with properties somewhere in the middle between testosterone and estrogen.

- Progesterone has the benefit of boosting metabolism but too much can lead to high insuline levels which would likely cancel out any benefits of increased metabolism.
 
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Xisca

Xisca

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Reasearch made me find some nice morer general stuff about hormones..

Endocrinology vs. Naturopathy—Steel Cage Death Match

T3 Or Not T3 - Exploring The Controversy - hormonesdemystified

Picked up things like "But, like many things in medicine, this is not a binary issue of selenium: good or bad? It’s way more nuanced than that..."

Another big one with the difficulty about studies:

"All of this hype around Se is a classic example of how one small, interesting, positive study (the German 2002 Se supplementation trial) was able to generate enough buzz that recommending Se made its way into clinical practice. Taking all of the Se trial data into account is also a great example of the pitfalls of generalizing study results to populations very different from the study population."
Europe is deficient in Se, America is not (soils).
 
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Xisca

Xisca

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Adrenal Fatigue - A Fraud Perpetrated On Unsuspecting Patients - hormonesdemystified
"If you take some sort of adrenal “support” formula that contains animal adrenal extract, your pituitary will think that there is too much cortisol in your body and will go to sleep, thereby leading to underproduction of cortisol by your own adrenals. Crazy, right? A product that purports to support your adrenals actually leads to shutdown of normal adrenal function! And here’s the kicker: if you take enough of this stuff for a long enough period of time, you can cause suppression of your pituitary-adrenal function for up to a year. I have even seen a couple of cases of permanent AI caused by long term use of adrenal supplements."
 
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Xisca

Xisca

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Thanks to the search engine:::
I love tomatos, tomatos keep me super androgenic.( contrarian endocrinology). but eat and drink tomato juice only for one week a month. Heavy heavy drinking of tomato juice.

Yes, i have encountered high estrogen sensitivity problems. Actually happened to people who took thyroid. When you take thyroid estrogen sensitivity grows, then these people go off the thyroid and end up now even more hypothyroid than before since estrogen sensitivity grew on the thyroid supplement
increasing estrogen actually increases progesterone sensitivity , This is contrarian endocrinology and actually already used by some people. This is what resveratrol does , which cant be taken all the time, but can be taken in cycles.

I used to do estrogen cycles for myself. And I experienced only good things from it. but of course this is for certain body chemistries.

Hormones only need to be used as contrarian. lets say if you are a slow oxidizer-- you are high copper. If you take estrogen, that will chelate your copper( like resveratrol does). and when you quit estrogen , this will increase your metabolic baseline.

If you take progesterone, that will chelate your zinc. and after quiting progesterone your met rate will be slower than before. Thus this helps some fast oxidizers.

And now they have insensitive adrenaline, this is why they retain sodium in the cell, and sodium in their hair and venous blood is low. Sodium in the cell makes them more sensitive to adrenaline

Slow oxidizers have 2problems either adrenaline receptors or lack of methylation.

Slow oxidizers cant handle stress, since their cortisol and adrenaline is insensitive, so PUFA pours into their blood in times of stress and their cortisol and adrenaline is usually high , but not working , so they get inflammation.

fast oxidizer has either COMT problems, MAO problems, or lack of magnesium or too sensitive adrenaline receptors.

the cure for the fast oxidizer is to lower his adrenaline sensitivity . this can be done by adrenaline mimics. You give adrenaline to lower adrenaline sensitivity when you come off.




QUOTE="opiath, post: 270237, member: 5721"]I took a long walk and I have another question.

Let's look at caffeine from a contrarian endocrinology approach.
You say a cure for a fast oxidizer is to lower his adrenaline sensitivity by adrenaline mimics. You give adrenaline to lower adrenaline sensitivity when you come off.
Would this mean if a fast oxidizer starts consuming caffeine daily, at first he will feel bad but overtime the caffeine will lower his adrenaline by acting as a substitute.
This will then put pressure off COMT and MAO because less adrenaline needs to be broken down and thus allow for other problems to be resolved.

Following this logic, a slow oxidizer would initially feel good on caffeine since it improves his metabolism by mimicking sympathetic drive.
Overtime however he would feel worse and worse since he is further lowering his adrenaline sensitivity.

Is my logic correct?[/QUOTE]

YES that is exactly what I am saying. You got it.

To actually cure something and not to just patch, you need to use contrarian approach.
Peat does not do that. He just patched everything in himself and stays on these patches with gazillion of supplements and hormones. And using contrarian endocrinology you won't need any supplements at all.

I think in CFS you need to do contrarian endocrinology, you need to kill adrenaline receptors for the body to get methylation back on track.

As a patch yes, methylation will work. but I dont agree with it as a cure unless you tested that you have low dopamine noradrenaline and adrenaline in the urine. And this means you have some methylation block from aluminum mostly( mercury and lead sometimes)

Fasting does this very well, reloads adrenaline receptors, cortisol progesterone.

People get sick these days, since they dont move and eat sugar. This creates too much Co2 which they cant breathe out. This forces your body to lower CO2 production in the cell. Otherwise your PH balance is going to be screwed up

And this retains tons of copper, since copper is used to break down serotonin in MAO- A. Serotonin hypoventilates you it a break on sympathetic nervous system. This body is retaining copper to stop the break .and allow sympathetic nervous system to run unopposed.

THIS IS CFS syndrome. ( this is why this is helped so much by methylation) but should be helped by forced exercise and copper chelators and contrarian endocrinology.

Anyone with chronic fatique can snap out of it in year if you just force crazy exercise.

Same as any one with certain cancers can get rid of it with running. I recommended this to many people with cancers and many got rid of cancers. they increased their sympathetic nervous system and hyperventilated , this caused you to dump copper. SINCE COPPER IS RETAINed when you are hypoventilating , your ceruloplasmin is low.

And ceruloplasmin goes up with a SHOT OF ADRENALINE. since if adrenaline is high , body will start dumping copper,since body will want to use serotonin
 

Ella

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tomato juice is estrogenic then

Very high in potassium, thus will increase progesterone hormone, reduce pg receptors, increase estrogen receptors and decrease estrogen hormone.

So you will be estrogen sensitive and progesterone insensitive.

Is this what he means by contarian endocrinology?
 

Makrosky

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The thing is that gbolduev's theory that using hormones is only a patch is no sense in the context of Ray's work. There are many testimonies in this forum about people who have used hormones to replenish their levels/correct deficiencies and once they are ok AND (and that's a big and) they use other strategies to mantain those good levels, are cured. Look at tyler's log for instance.

Everything in Peat's world is TOOLS. It's up to you how you use them.
 

charlie

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Look at tyler's log for instance.
Tyler works on the ocean and probably eats a bunch of seafood. And gets lots of natural light.
 
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Makrosky

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Tyler works on the ocean and probably eats a bunch of seafood. And gets lots of natural light.
And? He had hypogonadism and hypothyroidism IIRC. He used hormones for a while, then recovered, and barely uses any anymore besides thyroid. There are many other testimonies. They key is seeing hormones as tools. Peat doesn't take any hormones anymore IIRC, he corrected his metabolism.
 
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Xisca

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Is this what he means by contarian endocrinology?
I guess so, manipulating by inducing the body in the direction we want, ut in an undirect way, so that the body does it by himself.
The thing is that gbolduev's theory that using hormones is only a patch is no sense in the context of Ray's work.
If this is a never ending replenishing yes it is a patch, and will cause something else after.
Kybalion rules of the law of cause and effect!
And that it not an easy tool... so yes:
Everything in Peat's world is TOOLS. It's up to you how you use them.
But like the system in chinese medecine where meridians are as a family system of parents who are the cause of children, and it is very hard to enter the system...
 

Waynish

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Another thing to remember is the difference between local production of hormones vs exogenous application. The latter can't be studied accurately by looking at epidemiology of the prior, for example. I see this conflation a lot here. And yes, I think we need more evidence to label certain molecules as universally negative for physiology. If serotonin were just bad, then various agonists wouldn't have the effects observed - and such a variety of effects (as experienced by anyone who has actually tried, say, lisuride and lsd).
 

Ella

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@Dante, I was trying to understand when @gbolduev said when there is too much potassium in the cell then pg will be high and receptors few. To reset pg receptors (regain sensitivity) we need to drain the cell of potasssium. When hormone is low; receptor will be higher. So the inverse for estrogen.

Thank you for that paper and correct when potassium is restricted (low), we should see increase in pg and testosterone pathway and reduction in cortisol pathway.
Therfore, we would expect reduction of pg receptors as pg is high.

Thus when potassium is high in the cell, @gbolduev says cell must be drained of potassium in order to get a reduction in cortisol. This is why I am confused because reduction in cortisol happens in a low potassium, high pg environment.

Thus flooding the body with tomato juice high in potassium = reduction pg hormone; increase in pg receptors; increase in estrogen hormone and decrease in estrogen receptors. Increased progesterone sensitivity and decreased estrogen estrogen sensitivity. Yeap, I confused myself. I need sleep.

So the tomato juice once a month resets progesterone, testosterone, estrogen and cortisol.

Do I have it right now.
Is this correct.
 

Waynish

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I think if you all want to get much further with this, then you need to start using the scientist method more. I recommend posting some assumptions with methods to test those assumptions. Falsifiability! :)
 

Ella

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What's the difference if it is Breuss Juice or Peat's Potato Juice?
 

Makrosky

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i think you got it wrong. It has been demonstrated many times in this forum that using hormones therapeutically can break some negative feedback loops from stress. Same with thyroid, many people start using ndt ot t3+t4 and then focus on lowering pufas and increasing calories and dprotein and fat solubles, etc.. and they need less and less of the supplemental thyroid. It is obvious that that is the way hormones should be used. It works. I remember myself last summer using big doses of pregnenolone daily because I was under a lot of stress, a couple of months later stress passed and I could go without it for three/four months. What happens when stress hits you in gbolduev paradigm? You ask for days off work and do a 40 days fast? C'mon. It's all just tools. It's upon you how to use them.
 

gbolduev

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i think you got it wrong. It has been demonstrated many times in this forum that using hormones therapeutically can break some negative feedback loops from stress. Same with thyroid, many people start using ndt ot t3+t4 and then focus on lowering pufas and increasing calories and dprotein and fat solubles, etc.. and they need less and less of the supplemental thyroid. It is obvious that that is the way hormones should be used. It works. I remember myself last summer using big doses of pregnenolone daily because I was under a lot of stress, a couple of months later stress passed and I could go without it for three/four months. What happens when stress hits you in gbolduev paradigm? You ask for days off work and do a 40 days fast? C'mon. It's all just tools. It's upon you how to use them.

pregnenolone is different. It is the only one I would allow to be used in all imbalances for critical cases, Although it will cause iron deficiency in some people and stop 450scc enzyme. So it does have a feed back loop. that is why I never would recommend it. It is not needed.
 

Ella

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I too used big doses of pregnenolone which help me enormously, but then went too far. Now, I don't take any.
 

Dante

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i think you got it wrong. It has been demonstrated many times in this forum that using hormones therapeutically can break some negative feedback loops from stress. Same with thyroid, many people start using ndt ot t3+t4 and then focus on lowering pufas and increasing calories and dprotein and fat solubles, etc.. and they need less and less of the supplemental thyroid. It is obvious that that is the way hormones should be used. It works. I remember myself last summer using big doses of pregnenolone daily because I was under a lot of stress, a couple of months later stress passed and I could go without it for three/four months.
I think that's only for pregenenolone or upto a certain extent progestrone. Even something like DHEA is a hit and miss kind of thing if you see forum reports. Afaik , Ray doesn't like downstream precursors.
 

Ella

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Although it will causes iron deficiency in some people and stop 450scc enzyme.
@gbolduev so would not be useful for individuals that have high cholesterol. Would you give thyroid hormone? Or would you try and optimise calcium/potassium instead?
 

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