Taking Progesterone For Catamenial Epilepsy, Why Days 15-28?

glb4747

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My wife has started taking Progesterone recently for her seemingly catamenial epilepsy. Everywhere I read to take the Progesterone during days 15-28 of the cycle.

I am very curious what the reason for this is. The Progesterone levels are highest naturally during this time period. If the increased seizure activity is due to Estrogen dominance, and a very low Progesterone level, why would the progesterone not want to be taken during the opposite half of the cycle?

I cannot seem to find this answered anywhere I look.

Also, I have already read much very useful information on this forum. I will be talking to my wife right away about transitioning from the Progesterone Cream to Progest-E (or another equal oral delivery system?) Does Vitamin E also need to be taken with Progesterone?

Thanks so much for any help, this has been a very long journey for us over the past 8 years (with quite a long story), hopefully the things learned here will bring us to finally solving the issues remaining that won't go away for my wife's epilepsy.
 

HDD

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My wife has started taking Progesterone recently for her seemingly catamenial epilepsy. Everywhere I read to take the Progesterone during days 15-28 of the cycle.

I am very curious what the reason for this is. The Progesterone levels are highest naturally during this time period. If the increased seizure activity is due to Estrogen dominance, and a very low Progesterone level, why would the progesterone not want to be taken during the opposite half of the cycle?

I cannot seem to find this answered anywhere I look.

Estrogen spikes and is highest at ovulation. Progesterone might not be adequate to counter/balance the estrogen. The first 14 days of the cycle is when both estrogen and progesterone are lowest.

"The normal pattern of progesterone secretion during the month is for the ovaries to produce a large amount in the 2nd two weeks of the menstrual cycle, (i.e., day 14 through day 28) beginning at ovulation and ending around the beginning of menstruation, and then to produce little for the following two weeks. An average person produces about 30 milligrams daily during the 2nd two weeks. The solution I have used contains approximately 3 or 4 milligrams of progesterone per small drop. Three to four drops, or about 10 to 15 milligrams of progesterone, is often enough to bring the progesterone level up to normal. That amount can be taken days 14 through 28 of the menstrual cycle; this amount may be repeated once or twice during the day as needed to alleviate symptoms. Since an essential mechanism of progesterone's action involves its opposition to estrogen, smaller amounts are effective when estrogen production is low, and if estrogen is extremely high, even large supplements of progesterone will have no clear effect; in that case, it is essential to regulate estrogen metabolism, by improving the diet, correcting a thyroid deficiency, etc. (Unsaturated fat is antithyroid and synergizes with estrogen.)"

If your wife isn't concerned with having her menstrual cycle, she might want to take it continually.

This thread might be helpful. Catamenial Seizures And Progesterone Therapy

The forum member's daughter has had great success using progesterone for her seizures.
 

Ella

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Just this month I had the pleasure of witnessing progesterone use at its best. It saved a little terrier dog from being euthanised. The dog received a huge trauma to the head after being mauled by a larger dog. The dog started experiencing seizures after the attack which averaged every 6 months. The dog was placed on anti-sezure medication, however, the seizures became so persistent and violent occuring every day. The dog was placed under induced coma but the seizures were still being picked up via tremours. The vet told the owner there was nothing more that could be done and suggested the dog be put down.

The owner rang me desparate for an alternative solution. I sent the vet the research papers on dogs and epileptic seizures and treatment with progesterone. The vet questioned me whether I understood the dog was a male dog and not a female. I told him that I was perfectly aware that it was a male and that progesterone was still a solution as far as I was concerned. Besides, what did we have to lose, they were going to put the dog down. We had much to gain and litte to lose. The vet agreed hesitantly. I had no idea what dosage for this small dog and so thought, if I recommended too much we would succeed in anaesthetising the dog further and this in itself could stop the tremors.

I had the compounding pharmacist make up 10mg in a gelatin suppository and thought I just have to suck it and see what happens. The compounding pharmacist completely understood and said it made a lot of sense and was so excited that he didn't even charge for the suppository he made up. The vet on the otherhand was really skeptical and concerned.

Well as soon as the suppository was inserted, the dog moved his head and tried to open his eyes. The next day he was trying to get up on his legs but was exhausted and could not weight bare on his legs but was really hungry. Each day, he improved. His liver enzymes were elevated and his immune markers elevated. The vet was not concerned. I requested that the dog be tested for pathogens. He was found with high titres of staph aureus and strep. I suspected the dog had contracted an infection in the brain from the trauma and was the reason the seizures.

Chuck is now a happy little dog, no evidence of further seizures. He had lost sight but vision has now improved but still bumping into things. The dog has had maintenance dose of 2mg of progesterone and off anti-seizure medication. Chuck is very grateful to Dr Peat.

I'm sold on progesterone and will keep in glove compartment of my car just in case I happened to be in an accident or need to administer to others who have experienced trauma. The following is from Katarina Dalton.

Oh yes - cerebral accidents and trauma in both men and women. If you give women natural progesterone - and menstruating women have natural progesterone within 14 days of a severe accident - they heal up much quicker than a man with severe trauma, and they have far less water retention in the brain. Therefore, nowadays, some neurosurgeons tend to use progesterone injections prior to neurosurgery to prevent water retention.

Would have been nice to know how Chuck would have faired if progesterone was administered immediately after the trauma to the head.


When Dalton was asked what is too much progesterone in a woman.

No, I don’t think she can. A normal menstruating woman can’t have too much because she can’t get up to that “normal” level that she has in pregnancy. Women have a colossal amount; and there’s a limit to the amount, with our present methods of administration, that we can get into the blood. Vaginally, we can use it. We’ve found 400 mg was the limit, and if you use 500 to 600 mg, it won’t go any higher. You can only put it in every two hours because of the wax in the matrix. So we’re limited by menstruation, after everything else, and the same with progesterone injections, we’re limited by the vehicle.

As a general rule, is it safe to say that it’s better to overdose than underdose?

Oh, definitely. There’s no harm in overdosing. You can’t reach it. Very definitely overdose.

Regarding seizures:


Yes. By seizures, you mean what I mean by fits, epileptic fits? Yes, very definitely. And again, we need a careful record of the days on which the seizures have occurred, and the food they have had in the 24 hours prior to the seizures. In other words, there’s always something, either it is purely premenstrual; or there is another factor with it; and the other factor with it, we’re learning now, is very much due to the progesterone receptors’ not working and common things, food gaps when the blood sugar drops down. The other thing is sleep deficit, when the young girl goes out until 3:00 in the morning to party and then she has a fit, or the following morning, you know, the sleep deficit; and she is much more sensitive to alcohol of course, and the result is you can treat her with progesterone, but it must be education plus progesterone. And the dose on that would be...? Again, I would start with 400 mg twice daily, which is my minimum, and then I would go up. But if they happen to be in the hospital, it is easier to give them injections.

What would be the equivalent intramuscular (IM) dose of progesterone?

I’d give 100 mg progesterone in oil IM once daily. Just once a day. And that’s approximately equivalent to 400 mg twice a day vaginally? No, it seems to be more equivalent to 400 mg four times a day. It’s a big dose; but if they’re in the hospital, they’re there for a purpose, and they want to get out as soon as they can.

Dalton was more concerned with progesterone receptors and any hint of adrenaline, the progesterone receptor are not going to pick up progesterone. Ray mentiones that Vitamin D is important for the expression of progesterone receptors. So optimise Vitamin D levels 55 ug/ml and eat starch or fruit + protein every three hours. A blood sugar drop can prevent progesterone from interacting with its receptors up to 7 days.


What we really want to do is progesterone receptor function tests, because it is one thing to have a lot of progesterone receptors; but if you’re not going to use them, they’re no good. We now know the characteristics of the progesterone receptors; among them, first of all, they won’t pick up progestogen - progestins, I think you call them. The artificial ones, forget those. They will only pick up progesterone. They will not pick up progesterone if adrenalin is present, if there’s been a lot of stress, and they will not pick up progesterone when the blood sugar is low. So we’ve got to look after the progesterone receptors. It’s not a case of necessarily increasing the progesterone. And the progesterone blood levels are irrelevant.

 

Ella

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Correction: Vitamin D should read ng/ml and not ug/ml. Sorry I don't know how to edit.
 

tara

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Just this month I had the pleasure of witnessing progesterone use at its best.
Nice rescue!
The following is from Katarina Dalton.
This is good stuff.
Just thinking that Dalton's methods of administration are not the same as Peat's, and that may mean that she was unable to get overdoses by her methods.
I think it is possible to overdose with Progest-E or similar (and Peat has said so too). But it's also fairly easy to avoid dangerous overdose by using Peat's suggested methods while figuring out dosage. If you use 10 mg doses applied to gums, spaced at 1o min intervals, you can't over sedate yourself dangerously.
 

Mad

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I am very curious what the reason for this is. The Progesterone levels are highest naturally during this time period. If the increased seizure activity is due to Estrogen dominance, and a very low Progesterone level, why would the progesterone not want to be taken during the opposite half of the cycle?

I have also been very curious about this and wish someone had some insight. I understand matching our body's natural progesterone peak after ovulation, but if the point is to rid yourself of estrogen dominance, and taking progesterone can balance out the estrogen dominance, then why do we not focus on an even larger dose the first half of the cycle than the second? Sorry, I don't have an answer, but i concur with your questioning and don't think it was addressed.
My estrogen dominant symptoms tend to be at their worst during week two; graphs of the female cycle show this to be the time that estrogen reaches its highest point, with progesterone being quite low comparatively (aka: the week highest in estrogen dominance).
Like I said, I don't have the answers, but I am currently taking progest e and am not cycling it at the moment. I'm experimenting with taking high doses throughout the entire month to see if it makes a difference in my symptoms.
 
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glb4747

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Update. Before starting progesterone my wife was having about 2-3 tonic clonic seizures per year. Dizziness was pretty common, as well as jerks and absence.

Now since the progesterone, there have been 2 seizures in under a month. Previously she was being treated only with klonipin. After 6+ years of trying normal epileptic meds with no success, we realized kpin was the only thing that would work. But it's primarily taken once any of the three lesser seizures are present to prevent a tonic clonic. Not everyday.

So now I feel like the progesterone has only made things worse, which doesn't make sense to me. Higher progesterone should only contribute to a lesser chance of seizures from what I have read, even if it turned out my wife didn't need progesterone to begin with. I know I've also read that the body can respond to progesterone initially by producing more estrogen, or turning the progesterone into estrogen? Is this correct? And if so, how long might this happen in the body for?

Just looking for some help, of what to do and what to take or not take. Seems so far things have only been made worse by taking the progesterone.

Thanks.
 

Chaos

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Could be an estrogen dump. Insure her diet is high in protein to detox the estrogen, as well as balancing blood sugar levels by small frequent feedings.
 

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