B6 Increases Serotonin

[grenade]

Hey guys,

I'm interested in taking B6 for reducing prolactin, and also because I used to believe it'd reduce serotonin by shunting tryptophan into niacin (this is a claim made by Peat that has floated around the forums a few times).

I have since found studies that found B6 to increase, rather than decrease, serotonin.

1.
Pyridoxine effect on synthesis rate of serotonin in the monkey brain measured with positron emission tomography

"The effect of pyridoxine on aromatic amino acid decarboxylase activity supported a regulatory role of pyridoxine on the synthesis of neurotransmitter [serotonin] in vivo, and may be of importance in diseases with deficiencies in neurotransmitter function."

2.
The Effect of Pyridoxine Hydrochloride on Blood Serotonin and Pyridoxal Phosphate Contents in Hyperactive Children

"Oral doses of pyridoxine resulted in an appreciable increase in the serotonin content and a very large increase in the PLP content of blood in these hyperactive patients."

3.
Pyridoxine, regardless of serotonin levels, increases production of 5-hydroxytryptophan in rat brain

"Results suggest that pyridoxine plays a role in tryptophan metabolism, increasing production of 5-HTP."

I find these findings to be especially worrying, because B6 is quite commonly used to reduce prolactin.

Does anyone have anything to share about this?

 

[grenade]

@haidut - your knowledge would be greatly appreciated!

 

[raypeatclips]

I am not very knowledgeable about biology compared to some people here. Initial thoughts were that the b6 doses were large. 10 mg per kg injected. Peat has said 10mg is a big dose orally, nevermind 10mg per kg injected.

 

[Constatine]

I think thats why you take it at relatively low doses, no more than 10mg. It also supports dopamine function which will offset serotonin increases. It seems to help with autism, depression, Parkinson, general stress, cancer, ADHD, IBS, diabetes, and asthma. Thus suggesting its net effect is very anti-serotonin. B-6 seems to be neurotoxic in high doses (irreversible) though, probably just serotonin syndrome.

 

[Waynish]

Shouldn't we adopt a more complex worldview that serotonin isn't merely a "bad molecule" and dopamine isn't merely a "good molecule." I don't think peat supports this idea either.

 

[Constatine]

Shouldn't we adopt a more complex worldview that serotonin isn't merely a "bad molecule" and dopamine isn't merely a "good molecule." I don't think peat supports this idea either.

Peat looks at everything in a very unbiased way indeed. Though I have not seen anything yet that will lead me to believe high or even moderate serum serotonin is healthy (not that you are implying this). I agree that we should be weary of making assumptions and labeling things. Else we risk becoming as blind as the rest of the scientific community.

 

[grenade]

Interesting. Is it possible then that low doses of B6 increase dopamine and the conversion of tryptophan to niacin - thus, lowers serotonin? Whereas higher doses in this study shift things towards serotonin?

 

[haidut]

@haidut - your knowledge would be greatly appreciated!

Vitamin B6 (P5P) is a cofactor for both serotonin and dopamine synthesis. So, taking a bigger dose, especially when it is dark is more likely to affect the serotonin pathway. But taking B6 with some BCAA/tyrosine/pnehylalanine or just a decent protein meal should favor the dopamine pathway heavily. So, morale of the story is to keep the dose low, use during the day and/or give it a decent protein raw material to boost dopamine and lower tryptophan in the brain.

 

[Waynish]

Vitamin B6 (P5P) is a cofactor for both serotonin and dopamine synthesis. So, taking a bigger dose, especially when it is dark is more likely to affect the serotonin pathway. But taking B6 with some BCAA/tyrosine/pnehylalanine or just a decent protein meal should favor the dopamine pathway heavily. So, morale of the story is to keep the dose low, use during the day and/or give it a decent protein raw material to boost dopamine and lower tryptophan in the brain.

Do we have a running list of supplements not to take during days we're not getting much light for this same reason? I wonder if this is an often unaccounted for variable in supplementation...

 

[haidut]

Do we have a running list of supplements not to take during days we're not getting much light for this same reason? I wonder if this is an often unaccounted for variable in supplementation...

Not sure if there is a list. Tyrosine would be another one as without light tends to elevate adrenaline and not dopamine.

 

[grenade]

Vitamin B6 (P5P) is a cofactor for both serotonin and dopamine synthesis. So, taking a bigger dose, especially when it is dark is more likely to affect the serotonin pathway. But taking B6 with some BCAA/tyrosine/pnehylalanine or just a decent protein meal should favor the dopamine pathway heavily. So, morale of the story is to keep the dose low, use during the day and/or give it a decent protein raw material to boost dopamine and lower tryptophan in the brain.

Interesting, makes sense. Got any idea what an upper limit for supplemental B6 (pyridoxine HCl) would look like?

Ray Peat reccomends 10 mg daily, whereas the studies that show prolactin antagonism use upwards of 300 mg daily. Anecdotally, I've read of people benefitting from 25 to 100 mg daily without any apparent side effects, so I'm inclined to think 100 mg is the absolute max for supplementation in ideal conditions.

 

[haidut]

Interesting, makes sense. Got any idea what an upper limit for supplemental B6 (pyridoxine HCl) would look like?

Ray Peat reccomends 10 mg daily, whereas the studies that show prolactin antagonism use upwards of 300 mg daily. Anecdotally, I've read of people benefitting from 25 to 100 mg daily without any apparent side effects, so I'm inclined to think 100 mg is the absolute max for supplementation in ideal conditions.

I don't think anybody needs more than 10mg - 15mg B6 daily, especially if it is the P5P form. Even 25mg B6 as Hcl salt taken over a few months can cause issues with peripheral neuropathy.

 

[grenade]

I don't think anybody needs more than 10mg - 15mg B6 daily, especially if it is the P5P form. Even 25mg B6 as Hcl salt taken over a few months can cause issues with peripheral neuropathy.

Would splitting up the doses vs taking larger weekly doses (e.g., 10mg daily vs 70mg weekly) matter significantly in terms of toxicity & shunting tryptophan into serotonin?

 

[haidut]

Would splitting up the doses vs taking larger weekly doses (e.g., 10mg daily vs 70mg weekly) matter significantly in terms of toxicity & shunting tryptophan into serotonin?

I already said what is the reasonable upper limit. Not sure why somebody would want to take more than they need regardless of the possibility for toxicity. More is often less when it comes to supplements.

 

[grenade]

I already said what is the reasonable upper limit. Not sure why somebody would want to take more than they need regardless of the possibility for toxicity. More is often less when it comes to supplements.

Got it, thanks for the input Haidut. The context for me asking was because I wasn't sure if excess pyridoxine HCL gets stored in the liver and converted to P5P as the body needs it, or if large amounts of it get converted right away, flooding the body with P5P. So I was thinking that it may be supplemented like a fat-soluable vitamin, e.g. many people takes large doses of ADEK 1x or 2x per week.

Now that I think about it, since many of the studies using pyridoxine HCL showed increased serotonin from large doses, it makes sense that large amounts of it will get converted, and any excess would probably get excreted through.

For those who are reading this thread - if you don't have a milligram scale but want to divide up large doses of B6 that you may have on hand, you can try what I will be doing: in my case, I've got 100 mg capsules of B6, so I'll dump a capsule into water to easily divide the doses over a period of days. I'll mix 100 milligrams with 14 fl oz of water, and drink 2 fl oz of it a day so I won't exceed 10 milligrams.

 

[haidut]

Got it, thanks for the input Haidut. The context for me asking was because I wasn't sure if excess pyridoxine HCL gets stored in the liver and converted to P5P as the body needs it, or if large amounts of it get converted right away, flooding the body with P5P. So I was thinking that it may be supplemented like a fat-soluable vitamin, e.g. many people takes large doses of ADEK 1x or 2x per week.

Now that I think about it, since many of the studies using pyridoxine HCL showed increased serotonin from large doses, it makes sense that large amounts of it will get converted, and any excess would probably get excreted through.

For those who are reading this thread - if you don't have a milligram scale but want to divide up large doses of B6 that you may have on hand, you can try what I will be doing: in my case, I've got 100 mg capsules of B6, so I'll dump a capsule into water to easily divide the doses over a period of days. I'll mix 100 milligrams with 14 fl oz of water, and drink 2 fl oz of it a day so I won't exceed 10 milligrams.

The Hcl salt is OK for younger people but studies show that with age the conversion into P5P declines strongly. So, with a hefty dose of Hcl you end up with a lot of it floating around and I think this is what causes the peripheral neuopathy as the organism cannot use the Hcl directly. For people over 40 I would use P5P directly if it is available.

 

[grenade]

Got it, thanks for the input Haidut. The context for me asking was because I wasn't sure if excess pyridoxine HCL gets stored in the liver and converted to P5P as the body needs it, or if large amounts of it get converted right away, flooding the body with P5P. So I was thinking that it may be supplemented like a fat-soluable vitamin, e.g. many people takes large doses of ADEK 1x or 2x per week.

Now that I think about it, since many of the studies using pyridoxine HCL showed increased serotonin from large doses, it makes sense that large amounts of it will get converted, and any excess would probably get excreted through.

For those who are reading this thread - if you don't have a milligram scale but want to divide up large doses of B6 that you may have on hand, you can try what I will be doing: in my case, I've got 100 mg capsules of B6, so I'll dump a capsule into water to easily divide the doses over a period of days. I'll mix 100 milligrams with 14 fl oz of water, and drink 2 fl oz of it a day so I won't exceed 10 milligrams.

I realized after the fact my very basic arithmetic was horrifically wrong ... lol. With these amounts the doses would be under 15mg daily.

 

[brocktoon]

Peat looks at everything in a very unbiased way indeed. Though I have not seen anything yet that will lead me to believe high or even moderate serum serotonin is healthy (not that you are implying this). I agree that we should be weary of making assumptions and labeling things. Else we risk becoming as blind as the rest of the scientific community.

Weary = tired, fatigued ... Wary = feeling/showing caution ... Leery = suspicious, doubting

 

[Constatine]

Weary = tired, fatigued ... Wary = feeling/showing caution ... Leery = suspicious, doubting

Lol

 

[brocktoon]

Peat looks at everything in a very unbiased way indeed. Though I have not seen anything yet that will lead me to believe high or even moderate serum serotonin is healthy (not that you are implying this). I agree that we should be weary of making assumptions and labeling things. Else we risk becoming as blind as the rest of the scientific community.

Leary or wary...but not weary, I'd say...