I'm Losing A Lot Of Weight On Intermittent Fasting

[tyw]

When you transitioned your eating to earlier in the day, how long did it take you to adapt to the new pattern?
Do you not find yourself more lethargic with your belly full of food all day?

I had barely any adaptation period going from afternoon-to-night eating to morning-to-afternoon eating. Body was already circadian yoked at that point, with habits such as dimming lights during night time, using blue blockers, waking at dawn, etc .....

If not, then the standard answer is 3-7 days, which is the typical time it takes for Ghrelin and other hunger driving hormones to adapt to new feeding time.

----

I have no clue why lethargy for me is related more to food volume and/or type of food, rather than total caloric intake.

eg: almost all dairy will make me feel bad in general.
eg: 1.0kg of boiled potatoes (slightly over 700kcal) can make me feel lethargic, but not if I bake down the exact same quantity (to contain much less water)

The less volume, higher caloric density, less fiber (in general), and more processed (in general) the food, the easier I feel it digests in my system . Weetbix has been common staple as cheap and easy almost-pure-carb calorie filler for when I need to top off the day's intake.

I have no explanation for any of this, but at the end of the day, the general rule of thumb is "experiment with specific food types and do not lead to lethargy, and try to spot similarities between such foods".

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[raypeatclips]

@tyw regarding your weetabix comment. I thought you advised against wheat saying it can cause gut issues?

 

[tyw]

@tyw regarding your weetabix comment. I thought you advised against wheat saying it can cause gut issues?

In general, yes. Gluten is problematic, and should be avoided. I never recommend people do what I do, especially when there is no explicable logic to what I do.

Gluten not bad for me though ..... therefore weetbix for me.

.....

 

[Constatine]

I have 'subclinical' hypothyroidism, meaning my TSH is high (last one was 3.57, 6 months ago, and the biggest was 8 about 4 years ago, so I guess I am making some progress...) while my hormones are still in the 'normal' range. I have hypo symptoms. Low energy, low libido, feel like crap, anxiety, mental fatigue, no 'pep'.

Tried supplementing various forms of thyroid and none of them agree with me long term. They either stop working once the TSH drops leaving you back to square one, or I get symptoms of hyperestrogenism, and of course none of them fix the root problem which is that I am just 25 years old and really want my thyroid to work properly on its own as it used to...

My T3 conversion is pretty good but my gland just doesn't put out enough hormone ( T4 ) - total T4 is about 40% of range and FT4 is around 50% of range... ideally would be in the 75% percentile for optimal health.

Doctors of course tell me that my thyroid is 'damaged' but that's not really a satisfactory answer is it... unless half a chunk of it is missing, I'm pretty sure it can be made to work again.

I think the intermittent fasting screwed up my hypothalamus/pituitary making it believe it's still stuck in some kind of famine and downregulating the thyroid... much more likeley than anything being wrong with it.

Trying low fat and coconut oil right now to see if that helps anything...

If thyroid didn't work for you I have found that red light focused on the gland fixes thyroid issues better than any thyroid I've tried... and with zero side effects. Though I think most people in here already use red light devices so this is probably redundant.

 

[James IV]

I had barely any adaptation period going from afternoon-to-night eating to morning-to-afternoon eating. Body was already circadian yoked at that point, with habits such as dimming lights during night time, using blue blockers, waking at dawn, etc .....

If not, then the standard answer is 3-7 days, which is the typical time it takes for Ghrelin and other hunger driving hormones to adapt to new feeding time.

----

I have no clue why lethargy for me is related more to food volume and/or type of food, rather than total caloric intake.

eg: almost all dairy will make me feel bad in general.
eg: 1.0kg of boiled potatoes (slightly over 700kcal) can make me feel lethargic, but not if I bake down the exact same quantity (to contain much less water)

The less volume, higher caloric density, less fiber (in general), and more processed (in general) the food, the easier I feel it digests in my system . Weetbix has been common staple as cheap and easy almost-pure-carb calorie filler for when I need to top off the day's intake.

I have no explanation for any of this, but at the end of the day, the general rule of thumb is "experiment with specific food types and do not lead to lethargy, and try to spot similarities between such foods".

.....

Thanks for sharing, appreciate the input!

 

[MyUsernameHere]

If thyroid didn't work for you I have found that red light focused on the gland fixes thyroid issues better than any thyroid I've tried... and with zero side effects. Though I think most people in here already use red light devices so this is probably redundant.

Can you give me an example of the kind of device you use, and for how long every day?

 

[Constatine]

Can you give me an example of the kind of device you use, and for how long every day?

I use this: Red-Infrared Combo Light - Red Light Man but any incandescent light will work. I believe you can get one for 20 $ or so. I use it on my thyroid gland for 5-10 min a day but I also just hang it up and turn it on whenever I can, especially if I don't get any sunlight that day. I think that as long as it's daylight one should be getting some sort of light exposure (unless it starts to feel uncomfortable).

 

[m_arch]

Me likes Intermittent Fasting . Been doing it for around 8 years now, typically with a 6-8hr feeding window. Very easy to maintain pretty lean physique without problems, while maintaining high-normal caloric intake (approx 16x bodyweight_LBS multiplier, which is around 2500kcal for me).

While most protocols call for an afternoon to night eating pattern, I quickly discovered a few years ago that morning to afternoon worked much better. Newer studies seem to support this -- Intermittent Fasting Increases 24h Energy Expenditure, But Skipping Breakfast Linked to Reduced Metabolic Flexibility - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone

NOTE: the increased caloric expenditure from that last linked article is barely noticeable. Like 50kcal a day at best. The main benefits to the day-time-only eating plan are circadian yoking and metabolic flexibility.​

Detrimental effects of calorie-sufficient intermittent fasting on cortisol are non-existent. If there is any defect in cortisol it is due to some other stressor, or simply too little food.

Also, cortisol is never the be-all-end-all of skeletal muscle retention nor body composition -- BioSignature review: Are hormones the key to weight loss?

NOTE: I agree with the statement from the article, "Fat is the cause, not the result". Menno (the author) is right that fat regulates the hormones, and not the other way around. Losing excess fat is almost always the solution to those with hormonal problems (unless one is willing to use exogenous hormones).

The exceptions are those with true hormonal regulatory disorders, to which specific and effective treatment needs to be made.​

....

Hey Yew,

I seem to be able to do skipping breakfast intermittent fasting (but I probably overeat in the afternoon / night, because of this). However the idea of skipping dinner is crazy difficulty level. How do you go about this? I usually chow down a chocolate bar or two (as well as a chai tea with rice milk) right before bed. I'm not sure how i'd sleep without this ritual of mine... but maybe I just have to give it a week or so?

 

[Gl;itch.e]

Cortisol is naturally highest early in the day. Since fasting raises Cortisol it makes more sense to me to fast during the times when Cortisol is supposed to be naturally highest rather than when you want it to be low to allow for sleep.

Also more activity (i.e being awake and moving around) during the fasting period should mean faster fat loss.

Id love to hear your thoughts on this tyw

 

[NathanK]

Fasting insulin is NOT a good biomarker of insulin sensitivity. How well you handle a glucose load is the real measure.
Just my 2c.

I imagine a person could get an idea of their own glucose challenge test results by just using one of those cheap diabetes glucose strip tests throughout the day before and after eating various meals. No need to see a doctor.

As a matter of fact, if you get high results in the doctors office they will probably just tell you to do exactly the same thing!

 

[tyw]

Hey Yew,

I seem to be able to do skipping breakfast intermittent fasting (but I probably overeat in the afternoon / night, because of this). However the idea of skipping dinner is crazy difficulty level. How do you go about this? I usually chow down a chocolate bar or two (as well as a chai tea with rice milk) right before bed. I'm not sure how i'd sleep without this ritual of mine... but maybe I just have to give it a week or so?

Cortisol is naturally highest early in the day. Since fasting raises Cortisol it makes more sense to me to fast during the times when Cortisol is supposed to be naturally highest rather than when you want it to be low to allow for sleep.

Also more activity (i.e being awake and moving around) during the fasting period should mean faster fat loss.

Id love to hear your thoughts on this tyw

First, fasting does not necessarily lead to cortisol release. In the context of calorie-sufficient intermittent fasting, there is no effect just from fasting alone, and the pro-IF crowd on the interwebs has already compiled all the evidence supporting this fact.

Next, the general mechanic for metabolic-driven cortisol release is that more energy is demanded for whatever reason, and that energy is beyond what "readily available stores" can provide. Exercise will create a transient spike in cortisol levels, and this spike is highest when exercise is done early in the morning -- Cortisol and Growth Hormone Responses to Exercise at Different Times of Day1 | The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism | Oxford Academic . In other words, we have "cumulative cortisol load".

The question of "is fasted cardio better for fat loss?" has been debated amongst the fitness community for awhile, and the answer is basically that in 99% of cases, the answer is that there is no difference in fat loss results between fasted and non-fasted cardio. The only 1% exceptions are those specific cases of stubborn body fat loss, which require certain conditions to specifically upregulate beta-adrenegenic receptors in this type of fat. If you are not a competition bodybuilder or otherwise really really lean athlete, you do not fall into this category.

Extending that to activity during a fasted state in IF, it really doesn't make a difference ...... as is evidenced by the literally thousands of fitness-oriented people by now who have tried IF, obsessively modulated activity levels trying to get a new hack for fat loss, and found that at the end of the day, net caloric intake was what determined their total fat loss, and the eating pattern that best supported calorie control worked the best.

In that spirit, I do not advocate specifically for morning-only eating. I state what I do, but I'm a freak to begin with, and try to optimise what I can. To answer m_arch's question about skipping dinner -- I just never had a problem not eating at night. I'd know how much I need, eat my fill during the day, and still be feeling satisfied at night. I doubt there would be any sort of problems with cortisol rhythm in this case (unless I started suddenly exercising like crazy at night, which I don't).

In generic terms, there is clear evidence showing that all humans process food better during daylight hours. Better glucose tolerance, better fatty acid oxidation, less adipose tissue insulin sensitivity, more accurate liver clock timing (liver is meant to swell up during day with nutrients, not so much during night), etc ..... Again, I will direct people to read Bill Lagakos' blog The poor, misunderstood calorie

"Better food tolerance" doesn't mean "don't eat anything at night". It just means "try not to eat too much / majority of food intake at night", and be more wary of caloric overload during this time.

That is because from a circadian mismatch perspective, it is clear that light is the primary entrainer, and food can skew peripheral clocks if not matched to metabolic capacity. "Overeating at night" is a variable threshold, which could be 0kcal if you were sedentary all day while stuffing your face (food already present, more food is just night-time overload), or could be 1,000kcal at 9pm after a very physical active day with relatively little food.

Lagakos himself is skeptical of the extremes of 1 meal a day, and will say that the Breakfast-Lunch-Dinner setup is probably ideal, despite the fact that he would rather see a BREAKFAST-LUNch-dinner pattern, and exercise timed more during the daylight hours.

And of course, there are clear studies showing that a protein bolus at around sunset or even later elevates muscle protein synthesis much greater than a similar bolus earlier in the daytime, which does suggest benefits to a controlled night-time meal -- Nutrient Timing Endures: Circadian Rhythm Protein Timing | humanengine

.....

 

[Braveheart]

First, fasting does not necessarily lead to cortisol release. In the context of calorie-sufficient intermittent fasting, there is no effect just from fasting alone, and the pro-IF crowd on the interwebs has already compiled all the evidence supporting this fact.

Next, the general mechanic for metabolic-driven cortisol release is that more energy is demanded for whatever reason, and that energy is beyond what "readily available stores" can provide. Exercise will create a transient spike in cortisol levels, and this spike is highest when exercise is done early in the morning -- Cortisol and Growth Hormone Responses to Exercise at Different Times of Day1 | The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism | Oxford Academic . In other words, we have "cumulative cortisol load".

The question of "is fasted cardio better for fat loss?" has been debated amongst the fitness community for awhile, and the answer is basically that in 99% of cases, the answer is that there is no difference in fat loss results between fasted and non-fasted cardio. The only 1% exceptions are those specific cases of stubborn body fat loss, which require certain conditions to specifically upregulate beta-adrenegenic receptors in this type of fat. If you are not a competition bodybuilder or otherwise really really lean athlete, you do not fall into this category.

Extending that to activity during a fasted state in IF, it really doesn't make a difference ...... as is evidenced by the literally thousands of fitness-oriented people by now who have tried IF, obsessively modulated activity levels trying to get a new hack for fat loss, and found that at the end of the day, net caloric intake was what determined their total fat loss, and the eating pattern that best supported calorie control worked the best.

In that spirit, I do not advocate specifically for morning-only eating. I state what I do, but I'm a freak to begin with, and try to optimise what I can. To answer m_arch's question about skipping dinner -- I just never had a problem not eating at night. I'd know how much I need, eat my fill during the day, and still be feeling satisfied at night. I doubt there would be any sort of problems with cortisol rhythm in this case (unless I started suddenly exercising like crazy at night, which I don't).

In generic terms, there is clear evidence showing that all humans process food better during daylight hours. Better glucose tolerance, better fatty acid oxidation, less adipose tissue insulin sensitivity, more accurate liver clock timing (liver is meant to swell up during day with nutrients, not so much during night), etc ..... Again, I will direct people to read Bill Lagakos' blog The poor, misunderstood calorie

"Better food tolerance" doesn't mean "don't eat anything at night". It just means "try not to eat too much / majority of food intake at night", and be more wary of caloric overload during this time.

That is because from a circadian mismatch perspective, it is clear that light is the primary entrainer, and food can skew peripheral clocks if not matched to metabolic capacity. "Overeating at night" is a variable threshold, which could be 0kcal if you were sedentary all day while stuffing your face (food already present, more food is just night-time overload), or could be 1,000kcal at 9pm after a very physical active day with relatively little food.

Lagakos himself is skeptical of the extremes of 1 meal a day, and will say that the Breakfast-Lunch-Dinner setup is probably ideal, despite the fact that he would rather see a BREAKFAST-LUNch-dinner pattern, and exercise timed more during the daylight hours.

And of course, there are clear studies showing that a protein bolus at around sunset or even later elevates muscle protein synthesis much greater than a similar bolus earlier in the daytime, which does suggest benefits to a controlled night-time meal -- Nutrient Timing Endures: Circadian Rhythm Protein Timing | humanengine

.....

Excellent and understandable...thank you

 

[James IV]

Good, level headed, info in this thread.

 

[sladerunner69]

Despite going low fat (which should have reduced my calories significantly) I have not seen any benefit in fatloss. I did however see the best fatloss from IF style dieting. Low carb never worked. Low fat never worked. IF did.

How about your pulse and temps during IMF? I am worried about the kind of effect it would have on the metabolism. Also I remember once I asked you specifically about how you got so lean (because of the ripped, muscular arm in your pic) and you said it was during a time you went on a very very low fat diet...

Me likes Intermittent Fasting . Been doing it for around 8 years now, typically with a 6-8hr feeding window. Very easy to maintain pretty lean physique without problems, while maintaining high-normal caloric intake (approx 16x bodyweight_LBS multiplier, which is around 2500kcal for me).

While most protocols call for an afternoon to night eating pattern, I quickly discovered a few years ago that morning to afternoon worked much better. Newer studies seem to support this -- Intermittent Fasting Increases 24h Energy Expenditure, But Skipping Breakfast Linked to Reduced Metabolic Flexibility - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone

NOTE: the increased caloric expenditure from that last linked article is barely noticeable. Like 50kcal a day at best. The main benefits to the day-time-only eating plan are circadian yoking and metabolic flexibility.​

Detrimental effects of calorie-sufficient intermittent fasting on cortisol are non-existent. If there is any defect in cortisol it is due to some other stressor, or simply too little food.

Also, cortisol is never the be-all-end-all of skeletal muscle retention nor body composition -- BioSignature review: Are hormones the key to weight loss?

NOTE: I agree with the statement from the article, "Fat is the cause, not the result". Menno (the author) is right that fat regulates the hormones, and not the other way around. Losing excess fat is almost always the solution to those with hormonal problems (unless one is willing to use exogenous hormones).

The exceptions are those with true hormonal regulatory disorders, to which specific and effective treatment needs to be made.​

....

Wow interesting stuff. I wonder how your thyroid is, what are YOUR temps+pulse? Do you really eat 2500 calories in 6 hours? That is essentially none stop eating/drinking, not something many people would be willing to do.

I still want to try this though, I could really stand to lose some weight. I am worried that if I don't eat a substantial meal before bed that I will suffer from the inflammatory effects of darkness that Peat warns about. He specifically recommends to eat some fat before bed to counter the lack of bright light. I have previously gone to bed on an empty stomach and woken up in the middle of the night extremely discombobulated, like my brain had shut down and I could not think/feel anything, as if my brain literally could not "get a grip". I figured this was do to a lack of carbohydrates but my therapist mentionned it can happen during panic attacks, and I had been suffering from a lot of anxiety during that time. Anyways i am willing to give it a try again, I think I will stop eating around 5 or 6 pm and resume nourishment at 10am.

 

[tyw]

Wow interesting stuff. I wonder how your thyroid is, what are YOUR temps+pulse? Do you really eat 2500 calories in 6 hours? That is essentially none stop eating/drinking, not something many people would be willing to do.

I still want to try this though, I could really stand to lose some weight. I am worried that if I don't eat a substantial meal before bed that I will suffer from the inflammatory effects of darkness that Peat warns about. He specifically recommends to eat some fat before bed to counter the lack of bright light. I have previously gone to bed on an empty stomach and woken up in the middle of the night extremely discombobulated, like my brain had shut down and I could not think/feel anything, as if my brain literally could not "get a grip". I figured this was do to a lack of carbohydrates but my therapist mentionned it can happen during panic attacks, and I had been suffering from a lot of anxiety during that time. Anyways i am willing to give it a try again, I think I will stop eating around 5 or 6 pm and resume nourishment at 10am.

Never cared to measure body temperature and pulse consistently. Nothing out of the ordinary when I did (meaning normal close-to-37C and 60 bpm), and never seemed to be useful at telling me how well I was functioning.

2500kcal is easy to eat ...... far from non-stop eating. eg: cook 400g of noodles in 10 mins, add random protein source (usually instant), eat noodles in 5 mins, 1600kcal consumed. Snack your way to rest of calories.

I subscribe to, "Eat quickly; the stomach is a muscle". (I forget from whom this quote came from)

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If some food is needed before bed for good sleep, then some food should be eaten. Minimum effective dose would be the ideal.

.....

 

[Djukami]

Never cared to measure body temperature and pulse consistently. Nothing out of the ordinary when I did (meaning normal close-to-37C and 60 bpm), and never seemed to be useful at telling me how well I was functioning.

Sometimes I feel the same... However I'm guessing you have warm hands a feet, right?

2500kcal is easy to eat ...... far from non-stop eating. eg: cook 400g of noodles in 10 mins, add random protein source (usually instant), eat noodles in 5 mins, 1600kcal consumed. Snack your way to rest of calories.

Hey Yew, since you do not do well with dairy, I'm wondering if you worry about not getting enough calcium.
Do you eat veggies frequently with your meals or they are most of the times merely, for example, only rice and meat? I'm asking this in terms of digestion and feeling sluggish after eating them.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

How about your pulse and temps during IMF? I am worried about the kind of effect it would have on the metabolism. Also I remember once I asked you specifically about how you got so lean (because of the ripped, muscular arm in your pic) and you said it was during a time you went on a very very low fat diet...

Nope definitely wasn't a low fat diet. In fact on off days from the gym I would break my fast with low carb/high protein/high fat meals! When I had trained I would eat very high carb which probably was lower (but not low) fat.

If I did any kind of daily fasting these days I would most certainly try it with less fat and more carbs.

This thread sparked an interest in trying fasting again. I did a roughly 18hour fast this past Saturday and didn't have any issues. Drank a few coffees which helps with hunger and some heavily salted lemon water. I may try a once a week fast for awhile to see if it helps me reduce the amount of body fat I'm carrying. As bad as long term fasting may be I can't imagine its that much worse than carrying around too much aromatizing adipose tissue!

 

[sladerunner69]

Nope definitely wasn't a low fat diet. In fact on off days from the gym I would break my fast with low carb/high protein/high fat meals! When I had trained I would eat very high carb which probably was lower (but not low) fat.

If I did any kind of daily fasting these days I would most certainly try it with less fat and more carbs.

This thread sparked an interest in trying fasting again. I did a roughly 18hour fast this past Saturday and didn't have any issues. Drank a few coffees which helps with hunger and some heavily salted lemon water. I may try a once a week fast for awhile to see if it helps me reduce the amount of body fat I'm carrying. As bad as long term fasting may be I can't imagine its that much worse than carrying around too much aromatizing adipose tissue!

huh far out....So in order to get very lean, ripped arms lie in that picture, you simply followed an Intermittent Fasting plan? Could you describe it in a little more detail please, like was it similar to the 6-8 hour feeding window that other guy suggests? Also Im curious what your pulse and temps are.

I know plenty of peaters are lean or very lean but I think it really all comes down to the metabolic rate*calories consumed and sugar will always be burned off easier than fat, and obviously unsaturated fat will slow the matabolism.

 

[James IV]

huh far out....So in order to get very lean, ripped arms lie in that picture, you simply followed an Intermittent Fasting plan? Could you describe it in a little more detail please, like was it similar to the 6-8 hour feeding window that other guy suggests? Also Im curious what your pulse and temps are.

I know plenty of peaters are lean or very lean but I think it really all comes down to the metabolic rate*calories consumed and sugar will always be burned off easier than fat, and obviously unsaturated fat will slow the matabolism.

Who are these lean "Peaters?" ... pics or it didn't happen .

 

[sladerunner69]

Who are these lean "Peaters?" ... pics or it didn't happen .

Cant tell if serious

Just look at Danny Roddy or Ray Peat himself, maybe not super lean but not overweight by anymeans, and if you want only people from this forum look at other weight training dudes like look at tubzy, stryker, VoS, etc