Just Started Methylene Blue

sladerunner69

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The almost negative correlation between muscle volume and strength was medically determined long ago. There is a reason most powerlifters are not very voluminous. Androgenic steroids and caffeine improve muscle strength dramatically, yet they do not cause muscle hypertrophy. Experienced martial arts practitioners can pack a punch with 5 times more force Mike Tyron yet none of them looks like Tyson. And Tyson was much stronger and way less bulky than bodybuilders.

Well Im going to have to disagree, Androgenic steroids definitely do cause a lot of hypertrophy. That's the clear reason why professional bodybuilders take so much of it, some of them spending over $10grand per cycle on stacks like androgens, insulin, growth hormone, but mainly androgens like T and DHT.
 
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Experienced martial arts practitioners can pack a punch with 5 times more force Mike Tyron yet none of them looks like Tyson. And Tyson was much stronger and way less bulky than bodybuilders.
Any evidence like videos measuring Mike Tyson's punching power? Or Tyson lifting weights to compare strength?

What would someone's body look like (ex: height/weight ratio) that can punch 5x more force than Tyson?
 
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That's the clear reason why professional bodybuilders take so much of it, some of them spending over $10grand per month on stacks like androgens, insulin, growth hormone, but mainly androgens like T and DHT.
Any evidence of top bodybuilders spending this much per month on those products?
 

jaa

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Experienced martial arts practitioners can pack a punch with 5 times more force Mike Tyron yet none of them looks like Tyson.

I'm with the rest of your post, but this slice is so far off I can't resist not commenting. Tyson was one of the hardest punchers in the heaviest division in the sport most focused on punching. You may as well say experienced martial arts practitioners can jump 5 times higher than a well known olympic high jumper.
 
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"A pro bodybuilder could spend $8,000 to $20,000 for a 16-week competition cycle."

Thanks for the link.
Here is a recent video of Milos Sarcev Ifbb pro, mr.olympia contender talking about actual dosages for real Olympia competitors as he is a top bodybuilding coach.
@33:45

The cycle he mentions was 750mg test, around 600-900mg anabolics. Somewhere in the video he mentions people without real names/faces who post cycles/amounts are steroid dealers.
That price shadowman gives is for newbies who have no connections in the bodybuilding world. A lot of rich kids who have money wanting to buy a pro cycle and not hire a proper coach.

@7:20

6X mr.olympia Dorian Yates calls out the crazy prices/dosages. Say's he paid $100 pound/week on gear, and $1 per 1 unit of growth hormone and did 8iu a day = $60 week... $160/week back in the 90's.
We could say the pound$ would be around double American $ back then so $300/week x16 = $4800... even though he says usa people might pay more which the lower end pro's might, most people on olympia stage have the similar hookups.

Actually, there was a recent big bust fon wfn company who sponsored many pro's.

Another good video about prices/dosages with hgh with Dave Palumbo who coaches pro bodybuilders.
@3:10 mentions back in the 90's someone was selling hgh from factory.
@7:00 John does say someone spent $55k on hgh for a competition in 90's, though this is hearsay. Though Dave mentions says 12 iu kit was $220. $220 x 7days x 16weeks= $26640. Still does not add up to $55k
@13:20 mentions people today buying chinese hgh 126iu kits for $200.
@14:35 says many have gone pro on 2-3iu hgh day. 4iu max is fine.


2015 Mr. Olympia - Wikipedia
There is a link for the top 10 pay outs. Does not make sense for someone to spend 8k-20k for a cycle let alone $1000's for massages/chiro/food/coaching and not even place top 10 or win $16k for 10th place. Or 2k- 4k for last place.

Steroids: What Pro Bodybuilders Are Really Using | T Nation
shadowman says "Somewhere in the range of $8,000 to $15,000 would be more typical for someone at my level. It all depends on the price of GH. I get mine from the pharmacy so it's always pricey."
No doctor is going to prescribe bodybuilding dosages 6-12iu he mentions. Unless he is an hiv patient and would still get it for cheap. As lot's of pro's get there hgh from hiv patients.


I am gonna have to disagree with Shadowman, and trust these 4 people who put there names/faces in public.
 

Progesterone

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I would definitely NOT RECOMMEND methylene blue. This, besides drinking coffee is about the only disagreement I have with Ray Peat recommendations.

Ever heard of Hulda Clark? She has found methylene blue to be strongly carcinogenic, an alkylating agent that is part of forming; what she calls the cancer complex.

Stay away from methylene blue.

Bump.

Wtf?
 

haidut

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Well Im going to have to disagree, Androgenic steroids definitely do cause a lot of hypertrophy. That's the clear reason why professional bodybuilders take so much of it, some of them spending over $10grand per cycle on stacks like androgens, insulin, growth hormone, but mainly androgens like T and DHT.

Purely androgenic steroids like DHT or oxandrolone do not cause muscle hypertrophy. Look it up. The hypertrophy invariably comes from aromatizable steroids like testosterone, or the more recent "hit" trestolone.
 

haidut

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Any evidence like videos measuring Mike Tyson's punching power? Or Tyson lifting weights to compare strength?

What would someone's body look like (ex: height/weight ratio) that can punch 5x more force than Tyson?

There is plenty but I have to go dig them up. The comparison to Mike Tyson was from an old study I saw decades ago when I was still doing Kung-Fu. Could be biased but consider this below. The guy punching 3.85 tons was trained in karate and only later did he become a boxer. Also, the lighter boxers packed a lot more punch (on average) that the massive gorillas in support of my point that mass != strength.
The true force of a boxer's punch
"...A study of seven Olympic boxers in weight classes ranging from flyweight to super heavyweight showed a range of 447 to 1,066 pounds of peak punching force. Energy transferred from punch to target varied widely depending on how heavy the boxers' hands and gloves were, how fast they punched, and how rigidly they held their wrists. The three flyweights, interestingly, delivered more oomph than all but the two super heavyweights."

"...If a punch thrown by Rocky IV villain Ivan Drago is supposed to measure 2,150 psi and his glove's impact area is something like four square inches, he'd be exerting a force of 8,600 pounds, or more than four tons. Based on the professional literature, no boxer in real life comes anywhere close to that. I did find a 2007 news account about WBO cruiserweight champion Enzo Maccarinelli, whose punches supposedly packed a wallop of around 3.85 tons. However, the researchers making this claim have yet to publish their findings in a scientific journal, and I'm not taking them seriously until they do."
 

haidut

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I'm with the rest of your post, but this slice is so far off I can't resist not commenting. Tyson was one of the hardest punchers in the heaviest division in the sport most focused on punching. You may as well say experienced martial arts practitioners can jump 5 times higher than a well known olympic high jumper.

See my response to another similar post. Lighter weight fighter, who are well-trained usually punch a lot harder than the massive Hulks.
Just Started Methylene Blue

I strongly recommend the book "Machina Carnis" (https://www.amazon.com/Machina-Carnis-Biochemistry-Contraction-Development/dp/0521112672) for anybody interested in learning just how strong a person can be with proper training and how little muscle size has to do with it.
Finally, look up the studies on electrocuted people who flew 30-40 feet away from the place they got zapped. This enormous force throwing them up in the air was generated by their own muscles under the influence of high voltage currents. If you read the Machina book above it will all start to make sense. Under appropriate stimulation the human muscle can generate enough force to lift (briefly) a small bus in the air. Size has very little to do with it.
 

haidut

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Bump.

Wtf?

Well, I will not discount any evidence for or against MB so I am looking into it but at first sight it seems that MB is actually used to protect from the damage of alkylating agents. So, not sure Clark's claims are correct.
Methylene blue and the neurotoxic mechanisms of ifosfamide encephalopathy. - PubMed - NCBI
Methylene blue in the treatment and prevention of ifosfamide-induced encephalopathy: report of 12 cases and a review of the literature. - PubMed - NCBI

Also, some of the stuff she pushes seems suspect. See below.
Hair Loss And Dr. Hulda Clark
Hulda vs. Aajonus (HVA) - 180 Degree Health (discussion in comments)
 

Travis

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Methylene blue seems to methylate DNA at guanosine only, and only in the presence of light.

Below are two resonance forms of methylene blue.
Fig-1-Different-resonance-structures-of-methylene-blue.png

Notice the positive charge on the dimethylamino group⇑. When this is excited further with light, one of the methyl bonds is weakened and the positive dimethylamine is attracted to negatively-charged carbonyls (>C=O) where it methylates.

I don't think that DNA adducts have been demonstrated in the dark, or in the body. These researchers here exposed the methylene blue and DNA in a flask "...to direct or room sunlight or to a 75 watt light bulb at a distance of 12 inches for 15 minutes, or to a short wave UV source (UV Products, Inc., San Gabriel, California) delivering 160 pW/m for 15 minutes."

They were merely trying to sequence the DNA using the Maxam–Gilbert method. After electrophoresis, you can see that methylene blue modified guanosine only.
maxam gilbert.png
It has been known for some time that irradiation in the presence of methylene blue and other dyes including rose bengal causes guanine-specific damage to DNA (2-4).

But just a methyl group is not considered very damaging, and many respectable scientists believe that DNA-methylation is an epigenetic post-translational modification.
DNA methylation and histone modifications: teaming up to silence genes

Only two guanosine residues in the whole molecule were modified, the rest presumably being protected by the secondary structures of the tRNA.
Base-specific reactions useful for DNA sequencing: methylene blue — sensitized photooxidation of guanine and osmium tetraoxide modification of thymine

I haven't seen any evidence of methylene blue donating methyl groups to DNA in the absence of light. It's true that it's mono-demethylated metabolite, azure B, is found in the body after methylene blue treatment (confirming its role as a methyl donor). But the majority of these methyl groups probably end-up on homocysteine and S-adenosyl methionine, where methylation is generally considered a good thing. A lack of methylated homocysteine causes homocystinuria, and is the main reason why vitamin B₁₂ is considered a vitamin.

It simply may be excluded from the cell's nucleus in vivo. When it's used in cancer (phototherapy), it absorbs so radiation and creates superoxide radicals.
MBD [methylene blue dye] is a polycyclic compound with a planer ring giving its ability to absorb light energy. MBD has a peak absorption of 665 nm, which is within the spectrum used for phototherapy in infants. By being photosensitive, MBD causes the formation of superoxide radicals leading to significant tissue destruction, and desquamation has been reported after phototherapy in MBD exposed infants [15].
Adverse skin lesions after methylene blue injections for sentinel lymph node localization

Hulda Clark may be right about some things, but I'm fairly certain that she's wrong about AIDS—very wrong:
HIV and AIDS disease are very similar to cancer. That is why cancer is so often seen with HIV/AIDS. It is caused by the same parasite but the solvent is benzene instead of propyl alcohol.
The Cure for all Diseases

(This is probably why chemists and auto painters—and not gay people taking AZT, antibiotics, and amyl nitrates—always get AIDS. It's the benzene exposure.)

If Hulda Clark thinks that it methylates DNA in vivo and in the absence of light, they you should track-down her citation so we can look at it. I searched her book for "methylene blue" and I got zero results.

In dark spaces in the cell, methylene blue would not be expected to cause the type of damage that it does when placed on the skin and irradiated with light. Another popular chromophore in photo-oncology is heme, which is naturally synthesized in the body and also makes superoxide upon light exposure.
 
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The guy punching 3.85 tons was trained in karate and only later did he become a boxer. Also, the lighter boxers packed a lot more punch (on average) that the massive gorillas in support of my point that mass != strength.
Thanks for the reply Haidut.
I did not see anything that shows someone punching 5x that of Mike Tyson as you claimed.
The three flyweights, interestingly, delivered more oomph than all but the two super heavyweights."
The 2 super heavyweights still had the most force in the study.

The guy punching 3.85tons in the link you posted was WBO cruiserweight champion Enzo Maccarinelli. His Wikipedia page has nothing about him doing Karate. He become a pro boxer at 19. The researchers making this claim have yet to publish their findings in a scientific journal, and the links writer is not taking them seriously until they do.

From the link you posted was an interesting note: An oft-cited 1985 study of Frank Bruno, who'd go on to be WBC heavyweight champ, showed he could punch with a force of 920 pounds in the lab. Researchers extrapolated that to a real-life blow of 1,420 pounds, enough to accelerate his opponent's head at a rate of 53 g -- that is, 53 times the force of gravity.
The damaging punch. - PubMed - NCBI
Mike Tyson beat Frank Bruno 2 times.
 
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Regina

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There is plenty but I have to go dig them up. The comparison to Mike Tyson was from an old study I saw decades ago when I was still doing Kung-Fu. Could be biased but consider this below. The guy punching 3.85 tons was trained in karate and only later did he become a boxer. Also, the lighter boxers packed a lot more punch (on average) that the massive gorillas in support of my point that mass != strength.
The true force of a boxer's punch
"...A study of seven Olympic boxers in weight classes ranging from flyweight to super heavyweight showed a range of 447 to 1,066 pounds of peak punching force. Energy transferred from punch to target varied widely depending on how heavy the boxers' hands and gloves were, how fast they punched, and how rigidly they held their wrists. The three flyweights, interestingly, delivered more oomph than all but the two super heavyweights."

"...If a punch thrown by Rocky IV villain Ivan Drago is supposed to measure 2,150 psi and his glove's impact area is something like four square inches, he'd be exerting a force of 8,600 pounds, or more than four tons. Based on the professional literature, no boxer in real life comes anywhere close to that. I did find a 2007 news account about WBO cruiserweight champion Enzo Maccarinelli, whose punches supposedly packed a wallop of around 3.85 tons. However, the researchers making this claim have yet to publish their findings in a scientific journal, and I'm not taking them seriously until they do."
:thumbsup: For sure. My (original) teacher demonstrated it many many times. I have not seen anyone since be able to get it the way he does.
 

jaa

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There is plenty but I have to go dig them up. The comparison to Mike Tyson was from an old study I saw decades ago when I was still doing Kung-Fu. Could be biased but consider this below. The guy punching 3.85 tons was trained in karate and only later did he become a boxer. Also, the lighter boxers packed a lot more punch (on average) that the massive gorillas in support of my point that mass != strength.
The true force of a boxer's punch
"...A study of seven Olympic boxers in weight classes ranging from flyweight to super heavyweight showed a range of 447 to 1,066 pounds of peak punching force. Energy transferred from punch to target varied widely depending on how heavy the boxers' hands and gloves were, how fast they punched, and how rigidly they held their wrists. The three flyweights, interestingly, delivered more oomph than all but the two super heavyweights."

"...If a punch thrown by Rocky IV villain Ivan Drago is supposed to measure 2,150 psi and his glove's impact area is something like four square inches, he'd be exerting a force of 8,600 pounds, or more than four tons. Based on the professional literature, no boxer in real life comes anywhere close to that. I did find a 2007 news account about WBO cruiserweight champion Enzo Maccarinelli, whose punches supposedly packed a wallop of around 3.85 tons. However, the researchers making this claim have yet to publish their findings in a scientific journal, and I'm not taking them seriously until they do."

That's a sample size of seven. We know 3 were flyweights. We know the two super-heavys punched the hardest. And we have no idea how much heavier the other two were than the flyweights (if they were heavier at all).

Common sense says the heavier guys hits hard. The physics equations depending on mass back this up as well. And it plays out in what we see. Smaller fighters are generally more skilled. And their fights are more likely to go the distance. Larger fighters can absorb more force without the lights going out, and yet their fights usually end the quickest. If you're logic were true, the smaller guys would be fighting at super heavy and winning. That's not the case. I'm not doubting the smaller guys can crack hard, they can. They have both technique and speed and could prob give your average schlub with 50 pounds on them a run for their money. But not larger pro fighters. The speed (and to a lesser extent skill) differential is not enough to overcome the mass.

This is probably the study that the article is referring to. It concludes:

Olympic boxers deliver straight punches with high impact velocity and energy transfer. The severity of the punch increases with weight class.
 

aquaman

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Experienced martial arts practitioners can pack a punch with 5 times more force than Mike Tyson yet none of them looks like Tyson. And Tyson was much stronger and way less bulky than bodybuilders.

Lol

This is yotal fiction.

Tyson was able to knock out 250pound guys (who had great chins against normal heavyweights) with one punch while wearing 10oz gloves.

Him punching a normal sized human being without gloves - he'd kill them.

These fictional "oh this 50 year old Asian guy has super powers" went out the window since MMA arrived. None of these fantasy characters have ever fought or produced any results in world level fights, despite millions of dollars being on offer for boxing and MMA champs. When they do try demonstrations, these so-called masters get embarrassed by amateur MMA guys who knock them out within seconds.
 

Travis

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I think a lot of the confusion might come from the way this is measured. Does anyone know? Is there a standardized punching bag that measures force (dynamometer)? or do they all use different methodologies in other countries?

Converting force to PSI seems challenging, since I think it would be hard getting two different scientists to agree on the exact contact area of someones hand.

I can see a smaller Asian perhaps delivering more kinetic energy (E=½mv²), since it depends on velocity. Maybe a better measure would be the maximum power (P=E/t) delivered at one instant?
 

haidut

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That's a sample size of seven. We know 3 were flyweights. We know the two super-heavys punched the hardest. And we have no idea how much heavier the other two were than the flyweights (if they were heavier at all).

Common sense says the heavier guys hits hard. The physics equations depending on mass back this up as well. And it plays out in what we see. Smaller fighters are generally more skilled. And their fights are more likely to go the distance. Larger fighters can absorb more force without the lights going out, and yet their fights usually end the quickest. If you're logic were true, the smaller guys would be fighting at super heavy and winning. That's not the case. I'm not doubting the smaller guys can crack hard, they can. They have both technique and speed and could prob give your average schlub with 50 pounds on them a run for their money. But not larger pro fighters. The speed (and to a lesser extent skill) differential is not enough to overcome the mass.

This is probably the study that the article is referring to. It concludes:

Olympic boxers deliver straight punches with high impact velocity and energy transfer. The severity of the punch increases with weight class.

It de
Lol

This is yotal fiction.

Tyson was able to knock out 250pound guys (who had great chins against normal heavyweights) with one punch while wearing 10oz gloves.

Him punching a normal sized human being without gloves - he'd kill them.

These fictional "oh this 50 year old Asian guy has super powers" went out the window since MMA arrived. None of these fantasy characters have ever fought or produced any results in world level fights, despite millions of dollars being on offer for boxing and MMA champs. When they do try demonstrations, these so-called masters get embarrassed by amateur MMA guys who knock them out within seconds.

Read the book Machina Carnis when you can. I think it is available to download as a torrent if you search online. Also, I'd Google around and read the studies on the electrocuted people who were thrown 30-40 feet away by the power of their own muscles. Even the muscle of untrained people has tremendous capacity to generate force well in excess of what a trained boxer like Tyson could on demand. We just don't know very well how to tap into that (yet).
I am not saying EVERY martial arts guy out there punches harder than Tyson. But there are a few who do. The Shaolin school is one of those known to punch the hardest and there are studies on them as well. And they do not participate in demonstrations or public fights with MMA fighters, so I don't think they have every been discredited. Maybe some self-appointed gurus went to fight for money in the UFC and lost but these are not the people I mean.
Bruce Lee has a few documented fights where he would take down a guy twice his size with a single punch/kick or send them flying 7-8 feet away. The example with MMA is not very good as these guys grab, tear, wrestle, jump on top of each other, etc. The original topic was not who will win a fight between say an MMA/boxer and a martial artist, but simply who punches harder. I am interested in how training can tap into explosive muscle contraction on demand and how this is implemented biochemically, not who is better at fights.
 

aquaman

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It's a bit pointless debating this, but if a 150 pound guy could punch harder than the hardest hitting heavyweight of all time, don't you think that guy would be tempted to earn 100s of millions of dollars winning boxing matches ;)
 
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I think a lot of the confusion might come from the way this is measured. Does anyone know? Is there a standardized punching bag that measures force (dynamometer)? or do they all use different methodologies in other countries?
Hey buddy, I found this video from the ufc. It looks as though a heavyweight Francis Ngannou has the hardest punching power ever recorded. The guy in the video seems to describe how they measure the power.
starts @ 6:48


I think it would be interesting if they tested all fighters punching/kicking power, and had the stats available for people who bet on sports :D

I was also searching for other sports records like hockey/baseball/running/golf etc and found that most of the body types are around 6'3" to close to 6'8" tall and similar weight profiles depending on event.
(approx height/weight)
Usain Bolt(running speed) 207lbs/6'4"
Aroldis Chapman(fastest pitch) 211lbs/6'3"
Zdeno Chara(hockey shot) 255lb/6'8"
Joe Miller(golf distance) 265lbs/6'4"
Sam Groth(tennis speed) 220lbs/6'4"
Francis Ngannou (punch power) 262lbs/6'5"
 

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