Magnesium Malate "When Energy Fails"

Amazoniac

Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
8,583
Location
Not Uganda
I was actually looking for the initial discussion that came up with the idea that magnesium and malic acid are beneficial for fibromyalgia (FM throughout the text) and fatigue in general. I came across this material that explains the story quite eloquently. The authors are known and popular.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/13590849208997961
Details were kept out:

"Local hypoxia was postulated to play an etiologic role in the development and the symptoms of FM [17]."

"Patients with FM have normal muscle blood flow under resting conditions, but decreased blood flow under aerobic exercises [l8]."

"Low levels of high energy phosphates such as ATP, ADP and phosphocreatine were observed at tender points, together with increased AMP levels [20]. The levels of high energy phosphates were significantly lower in tender muscles than in non-tender muscles of FM patients and in muscles of normal controls. Decreased serum levels of several amino acids were observed in FM patients [21]."

"In hypoxic muscle tissues, there is an excess of cytosolic reducing equivalents which inhibit glycolysis. Stimulation of gluconeogenesis occurs, with breakdown of muscle proteins and amino acids which are used following transamination as substrates for ATP synthesis [22, 23]. The protein breakdown observed in muscle biopsies [1] could be the result of increased gluconeogenesis due in part to chronic hypoxia, which has been demonstrated in FM patients [19]. Acute viral diseases are associated with myolysis and myalgia similar to symptoms of FM patients [24]. The muscle pain in FM could therefore be the result of proteolysis of muscle tissue, due to enhanced gluconeogenesis. The low serum aminoacids [21] in spite of increased muscle proteolysis [1] suggest a very active gluconeogenesis in FM patients."

"The synthesis of ATP by intact respiring mitochondria requires the presence of oxygen, magnesium, substrated, ADP and inorganic phosphate, hereafter referred to as phosphate [24]."

"Through a magnesium-dependent mechanism, the mitochondria can accumulate large amounts of CA++ in order to maintain low levels of Ca++ in the cytosol [32]. However, this mitochondrial uptake of calcium inhibits ATP synthesis in two ways: firstly, binding of intramitochondrial calcium to phosphate decreases the phosphate pool available for oxidative phosphorylation of ADP and secondly the energy generated by the electron transport system is used up for calcium transport, therefore, it is not available for ATP synthesis [26]. Mitochondrial calcification eventually results in cell death [33]. Adequate levels of magnesium are required to maintain low cytosolic calcium [32]."

"Aluminium inhibits glycolysis and oxidative phosphorylation with decreased intramitochondrial ATP and increased AMP levels [34]. Because of its high afhity for phosphate groups, aluminum blocks the absorption and utilization of phosphate for ATP synthesis and, therefore may cause intramitochondrial phosphate deficiency. Adequate magnesium levels prevent this toxic effect of aluminum [34]. Malic acid is one of the most potent chelators of aluminum. As an antidote to aluminum intoxication in mice, malic acid resuited in the highest survival ratio of several chelators tested [35]. Malic acid was the most effective in decreasing brain aluminum levels [36]."

"An oxygen-sparing effect of magnesium has been demonstrated in magnesium deficient competitive swimmers [37]. Magnesium supplementation lowered blood lactate levels and oxygen consumption despite a higher glucose utilization. As will be shown later, malate also has oxygen-sparing effect. It is plausible, therefore that magnesium and malate deficiency could induce a relative hypoxia in cases where the oxygen availability is compromised, as is the case in FM patients, where blood now and oxygen tension are decreased."

"Under anaerobic conditions, with an excess of cytosolic reducing equivalents, inhibition of glycolysis occurs. By its simultaneous reduction to succinate and oxidation to oxaloacetate, malate is capable of removing cytosolic reducing equivalents, thereby reversing inhibition of glycolysis [49-51]."

"In certain bacteria which have similar microanatomical and biochemical properties as mitochondria, malate acts as an electron donor and generates a large proton motive force [54], believed to be the driving force for the mitochondrial synthesis of ATP [26]."

"Relatively small amounts of exogenous malate are required to increase mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation and ATP production. Once an elevated mitochondrial malate concentration is attained, it may support an increased rate of substrate transport into the mitochondria without depleting its own matrix concentration, for malate is regenerated in the tricarboxylic acid cycle during the oxidation of the substrates with which it exchanges [49, 53]."

"Malate is the only metabolite of the citric acid cycle which correlates positively with physical activity. In rats, exercise-induced mitochondrial respiration was associated with increased malate levels only, with the other key metabolites remaining unchanged [53]. Following endurance training of athletes, muscles were characterized by a 50% increase in the malate-aspartate redox shuttle enzymes [59], where malate plays a key role. In humans as well as in other animals tested, when there is increased demand for ATP, there is also an increased demand and utilization of malate."

"The respiratory chain involved in ATP synthesis requires adequate amounts of the B vitamins thiamine and riboflavin, which are the precursors of NAD and FAD respectively [26]. These two B vitamins, like B6, require a magnesium-dependent phosphate transfer reaction to become biologically active. Magnesium deficiency would therefore create a sluggish respiratory chain and a decreased efficiency in the transfer of reducing equivalents from the cytosol to the mitochondria."

"Hypothyroidism, which is very common in FM patients, is associated with FM like symptoms which improve following thyroid replacement [16]. Thyroid hormones stimulate malate dehydrogenases at the transcriptional and post-transcriptional levels, and hypothyroidism is associated with a decrease in malate dehydrogenases [63]."

"Intramitochondrial phosphate deficiency could occur in the presence of low levels of magnesium and malate. Excess calcium and aluminium could also predispose to intramitochondrial phosphate deficiency [26, 34]."

"Magnesium deficiency is associated with swelling of the mitochondria; increased permeability and decreased selectivity of mitochondrial inner membrane and uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation [38]."

"B vitamins become biologically active after a magnesium-dependent phosphate transfer reaction."
 
Last edited:
OP
Amazoniac

Amazoniac

Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
8,583
Location
Not Uganda
It has inconvenients too:
Effect of Orange and Apple Juices on Iron Absorption in Children
"Addition of ascorbic acid to complex foods has been shown to increase iron absorption in Peruvian and Jamaican children,14,15 but there are more differences between apple and orange juices than ascorbic acid content."

"One could speculate, therefore, that other ingredients present in apple juice may have a beneficial effect on iron absorption and counteract the effect of lower ascorbic acid levels. The apple juice in our study contained approximately 400 mg of malic acid per 100 mL of juice, whereas the orange juice contained negligible amounts. Some studies have shown malic acid to have a beneficial effect on iron absorption in adults.21 Although the effect of malic acid on nonheme iron absorption in children has not been studied, it is possible that malic acid or some other component of the apple juice counteracted the effect of the differing ascorbic acid concentration. Alternatively, the higher levels of zinc and copper in the orange juice meal may have impaired iron absorption and negated any beneficial effect of ascorbic acid."

[21] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1753-4887.1997.tb06461.x/epdf
Enhancers of Nonheme Iron Absorption
"Organic Acids. Although less well studied than ascorbic acid, several other organic acids appear to have comparable enhancing effects in single-meal studies."

"All the vegetables associated with good iron bioavailability contained appreciable amounts of one or more of the organic acids citric, malic, or ascorbic acids. The addition of citric, malic, or tartaric acids to a rice-based meal improved iron absorption two- to fourfold.21,22"

 
OP
Amazoniac

Amazoniac

Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
8,583
Location
Not Uganda
Malic acid - Wikipedia
"Malic acid contributes to the sourness of green (unripe) apples. It is present in grapes and in most wines with concentrations sometimes as high as 5 g/l.[6] It confers a tart taste to wine, although the amount decreases with increasing fruit ripeness. The taste of malic acid is very clear and pure in rhubarb, a plant for which it is the primary flavor. It is also a component of some artificial vinegar flavors, such as "salt and vinegar" flavored potato chips."
"Malic acid is the source of extreme tartness in United States-produced confectionery, the so-called extreme candy. It is also used with or in place of the less sour citric acid in sour sweets."

--
http://drbobseiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/article_08-37_abraham.pdf

--
Somewhat relevant stuff:
Phosphate, activation, and aging.
"Excessive citric acid, for example, might activate dormant cancer cells (Havard, et al., 2011[*]), and has been associated with malignancy (Blüml, et al., 2011)."
I was wondering, why wouldn't malic acid have the same effect?

[*]
"Citric acid has been proposed to have a key role in prostate cells metabolism (12) and we are investigating the mechanism by which it regulates prostate cancer cell dormancy. Notably, other intermediates of Krebs cycle (fumaric or maleic acid), chelating agents (EGTA, EDTA) or activators of Hypoxia Induced Factor 1 (dimethyloxalylglycine or cobalt chloride) cannot substitute for citric acid in our assay (data not shown). As glutathione displayed a synergistic effect with citric acid, the activity of the low molecular weight fraction of conditioned media could result from a synergy between several metabolites present at low concentration."

"[..]This approach enabled us to identify citric acid as a potent inducer of clonal cell growth in hypertonic medium (Figure 6A). The enhancement of cloning efficiency achieved with 8 mM citric acid was comparable with that observed by the optimal dilution of DMEM-FCS (25% water). This activity was shared by sodium citrate, but not fumaric or maleic acids (data not shown)."​

http://www.che.uc.edu/jensen/W. B. Jensen/Reprints/138. Malic Acid.pdf
 

Badger

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2017
Messages
960
Citric acid is in a LOT of sodas and so-called "organic" juices, plus many other things.
 
OP
Amazoniac

Amazoniac

Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
8,583
Location
Not Uganda
http://drcarolyndean.com/im_p1.pdf
Magnesium malate has been studied in fibromyalgia and found to be helpful for some people with this condition. Again, the amount and absorption of magnesium in a malate formulation is very low. Magnesium malate 1,300mg gives you 200mg of magnesium, of which only about 20% may be absorbed. That's a net 40mg.
@Dan Wich
 

kaybb

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
500
I was actually looking for the initial discussion that came up with the idea that magnesium and malic acid are beneficial for fibromyalgia (FM throughout the text) and fatigue in general. I came across this material that explains the story quite eloquently. The authors are known and popular.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/13590849208997961
Details were kept out:

"Local hypoxia was postulated to play an etiologic role in the development and the symptoms of FM [17]."

"Patients with FM have normal muscle blood flow under resting conditions, but decreased blood flow under aerobic exercises [l8]."

"Low levels of high energy phosphates such as ATP, ADP and phosphocreatine were observed at tender points, together with increased AMP levels [20]. The levels of high energy phosphates were significantly lower in tender muscles than in non-tender muscles of FM patients and in muscles of normal controls. Decreased serum levels of several amino acids were observed in FM patients [21]."

"In hypoxic muscle tissues, there is an excess of cytosolic reducing equivalents which inhibit glycolysis. Stimulation of gluconeogenesis occurs, with breakdown of muscle proteins and amino acids which are used following transamination as substrates for ATP synthesis [22, 23]. The protein breakdown observed in muscle biopsies [1] could be the result of increased gluconeogenesis due in part to chronic hypoxia, which has been demonstrated in FM patients [19]. Acute viral diseases are associated with myolysis and myalgia similar to symptoms of FM patients [24]. The muscle pain in FM could therefore be the result of proteolysis of muscle tissue, due to enhanced gluconeogenesis. The low serum aminoacids [21] in spite of increased muscle proteolysis [1] suggest a very active gluconeogenesis in FM patients."

"The synthesis of ATP by intact respiring mitochondria requires the presence of oxygen, magnesium, substrated, ADP and inorganic phosphate, hereafter referred to as phosphate [24]."

"Through a magnesium-dependent mechanism, the mitochondria can accumulate large amounts of CA++ in order to maintain low levels of Ca++ in the cytosol [32]. However, this mitochondrial uptake of calcium inhibits ATP synthesis in two ways: firstly, binding of intramitochondrial calcium to phosphate decreases the phosphate pool available for oxidative phosphorylation of ADP and secondly the energy generated by the electron transport system is used up for calcium transport, therefore, it is not available for ATP synthesis [26]. Mitochondrial calcification eventually results in cell death [33]. Adequate levels of magnesium are required to maintain low cytosolic calcium [32]."

"Aluminium inhibits glycolysis and oxidative phosphorylation with decreased intramitochondrial ATP and increased AMP levels [34]. Because of its high afhity for phosphate groups, aluminum blocks the absorption and utilization of phosphate for ATP synthesis and, therefore may cause intramitochondrial phosphate deficiency. Adequate magnesium levels prevent this toxic effect of aluminum [34]. Malic acid is one of the most potent chelators of aluminum. As an antidote to aluminum intoxication in mice, malic acid resuited in the highest survival ratio of several chelators tested [35]. Malic acid was the most effective in decreasing brain aluminum levels [36]."

"An oxygen-sparing effect of magnesium has been demonstrated in magnesium deficient competitive swimmers [37]. Magnesium supplementation lowered blood lactate levels and oxygen consumption despite a higher glucose utilization. As will be shown later, malate also has oxygen-sparing effect. It is plausible, therefore that magnesium and malate deficiency could induce a relative hypoxia in cases where the oxygen availability is compromised, as is the case in FM patients, where blood now and oxygen tension are decreased."

"Under anaerobic conditions, with an excess of cytosolic reducing equivalents, inhibition of glycolysis occurs. By its simultaneous reduction to succinate and oxidation to oxaloacetate, malate is capable of removing cytosolic reducing equivalents, thereby reversing inhibition of glycolysis [49-51]."

"In certain bacteria which have similar microanatomical and biochemical properties as mitochondria, malate acts as an electron donor and generates a large proton motive force [54], believed to be the driving force for the mitochondrial synthesis of ATP [26]."

"Relatively small amounts of exogenous malate are required to increase mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation and ATP production. Once an elevated mitochondrial malate concentration is attained, it may support an increased rate of substrate transport into the mitochondria without depleting its own matrix concentration, for malate is regenerated in the tricarboxylic acid cycle during the oxidation of the substrates with which it exchanges [49, 53]."

"Malate is the only metabolite of the citric acid cycle which correlates positively with physical activity. In rats, exercise-induced mitochondrial respiration was associated with increased malate levels only, with the other key metabolites remaining unchanged [53]. Following endurance training of athletes, muscles were characterized by a 50% increase in the malate-aspartate redox shuttle enzymes [59], where malate plays a key role. In humans as well as in other animals tested, when there is increased demand for ATP, there is also an increased demand and utilization of malate."

"The respiratory chain involved in ATP synthesis requires adequate amounts of the B vitamins thiamine and riboflavin, which are the precursors of NAD and FAD respectively [26]. These two B vitamins, like B6, require a magnesium-dependent phosphate transfer reaction to become biologically active. Magnesium deficiency would therefore create a sluggish respiratory chain and a decreased efficiency in the transfer of reducing equivalents from the cytosol to the mitochondria."

"Hypothyroidism, which is very common in FM patients, is associated with FM like symptoms which improve following thyroid replacement [16]. Thyroid hormones stimulate malate dehydrogenases at the transcriptional and post-transcriptional levels, and hypothyroidism is associated with a decrease in malate dehydrogenases [63]."

"Intramitochondrial phosphate deficiency could occur in the presence of low levels of magnesium and malate. Excess calcium and aluminium could also predispose to intramitochondrial phosphate deficiency [26, 34]."

"Magnesium deficiency is associated with swelling of the mitochondria; increased permeability and decreased selectivity of mitochondrial inner membrane and uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation [38]."

"B vitamins become biologically active after a magnesium-dependent phosphate transfer reaction."
So I am suffering with FM. (I take magnesium shots and supplement mag.). From this information, taking Magnesium, Malic acid and B vitamins be the main reccomendation?
 
OP
Amazoniac

Amazoniac

Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
8,583
Location
Not Uganda
So I am suffering with FM. (I take magnesium shots and supplement mag.). From this information, taking Magnesium, Malic acid and B vitamins be the main reccomendation?
I don't think so, I think that the main goal should be to restore metabolism as a whole, and above all, it probably requires this mindset:
A person needs to go into the supermarket and... | Ray Peat Forum
"Hypothyroidism, which is very common in FM patients, is associated with FM like symptoms which improve following thyroid replacement [16]. Thyroid hormones stimulate malate dehydrogenases at the transcriptional and post-transcriptional levels, and hypothyroidism is associated with a decrease in malate dehydrogenases [63]."

Regarding magnesium malate, in my experience it's weak to replenish deficiencies. And I guess that your body soon enough will adapt to the supplemented malic acid.
Magnesium loss or retention can be so insufficient that it puzzles some researchers, here's a discussion on "intractable magnesium deficiency":
Intractable magnesium deficiency

B-vits will increase your need for magnesium even more in case you're deficient. An example:
Thiamine deficiency inhibits magnesium depletion?
"It can be presumed that thiamine deficiency inhibits magnesium depletion and, consequently, the influence of magnesium deficiency is less significant in the thiamine- and magnesium-deficient animals."

Fibromyalgia Aches & Pains as a "Symptom" of Hypothyroidism: Dr. John Lowe / Thyroid Disease Information Source - Articles/FAQs

I suppose that one of the reasons why Ray often suggests a thyroid supplement right away is because most of the reactions in the body will occur when the required nutrients are present as long as you have enough energy. When people wonder how others can abuse their bodies without any apparent problems, it must be because they had enough energy to adapt to the adversity in a way that minimizes harm and makes the best out of the situation. It doesn't mean that the circumnstances are optimal, but just the fact that having enough energy spared them of any immediate problem.

Do you have bad body odor? It can be an indicator of lack of magnesium:
Magnesium, The Nutrient That Could Change Your Life: Chapter 17. Magnesium's Effect on Body Odors
 

kaybb

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
500
I don't think so, I think that the main goal should be to restore metabolism as a whole, and above all, it probably requires this mindset:
A person needs to go into the supermarket and... | Ray Peat Forum


Regarding magnesium malate, in my experience it's weak to replenish deficiencies. And I guess that your body soon enough will adapt to the supplemented malic acid.
Magnesium loss or retention can be so insufficient that it puzzles some researchers, here's a discussion on "intractable magnesium deficiency":
Intractable magnesium deficiency

B-vits will increase your need for magnesium even more in case you're deficient. An example:
Thiamine deficiency inhibits magnesium depletion?
"It can be presumed that thiamine deficiency inhibits magnesium depletion and, consequently, the influence of magnesium deficiency is less significant in the thiamine- and magnesium-deficient animals."

Fibromyalgia Aches & Pains as a "Symptom" of Hypothyroidism: Dr. John Lowe / Thyroid Disease Information Source - Articles/FAQs

I suppose that one of the reasons why Ray often suggests a thyroid supplement right away is because most of the reactions in the body will occur when the required nutrients are present as long as you have enough energy. When people wonder how others can abuse their bodies without any apparent problems, it must be because they had enough energy to adapt to the adversity in a way that minimizes harm and makes the best out of the situation. It doesn't mean that the circumnstances are optimal, but just the fact that having enough energy spared them of any immediate problem.

Do you have bad body odor? It can be an indicator of lack of magnesium:
Magnesium, The Nutrient That Could Change Your Life: Chapter 17. Magnesium's Effect on Body Odors
Thank you! No bad body odor but I take mag daily, plus injections every other week.

I have been working on metabolism the last two years, taking Armour, and eating RayPeat recommendationss. Which makes the supermarket technique very appealing ! I'm a little tired of eating RPs way and still quite sick with fibro/migraines/fatigue. Some improvements though . I am going to study all this information. Thanks!
 

Rand56

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2013
Messages
437
I just started taking some mag malate, and getting increased anxiety from it. Guess it's the malic acid. I'll have to ditch taking this, and go back to mag gluconate and mag chloride which I have no issues with.
 
OP
Amazoniac

Amazoniac

Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
8,583
Location
Not Uganda
Terma's post and a picture of yerrag reminded me that there are reviews of Albion's magnesium malate where people complain about a fishy taste, a marine one. Strange, isn't it? It's not something that I would expect from magnesium paired with malate. What's up?
- Evaluation of di‐magnesium malate, used as a novel food ingredient and as a source of magnesium in foods for the general population, food supplements, total diet replacement for weight control and food for special medical purposes | EFSA

You can find on my store or at eBay magnesium acetate, but being 99.99% pure is not enough because the degree of contamination for certain toxic metals is expressed in ppm, they have to be more specific. As an example, such purity is far from what's needed to guarantee acceptable concentrations for the minerals discussed in the link above.
 
Last edited:
EMF Mitigation - Flush Niacin - Big 5 Minerals

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom