Estrogen In Milk

[Makrosky]

If you want to huge increases in plasma and urinary estrone and estradiol; look no further than Figure 1, Figure 3, and Figure 5.

Figure 1:
(a) Increase of 25 ng/mL -> Is this a lot or not ?
(b) Increase almost unperceptible. 1 pg/mL ? I don't think this is relevant at all
(c) Increase in progesterone (I don't have to talk about it's protective and antiestrogenic effects, no?) of 0.1 ng/mL

The Figure 2 is more worrysome. It lowers testosterone ??? What the hell ?

Because if you consume no estrogen at all, you should eliminate the same amount that you produce.

(production rate) + (elimination rate) = o

If this weren't the case, you would have a net gain or loss of estrogen; levels would progressively change throughout time. Since plasma levels are similar in 20 year old's and 60 year-olds, we should assume this is true. Are we clear?

No we are not clear. I think it is normal to accumulate estrogen in tissues when the liver cannot deactivate all of it. So it is very well possible that you produce more endogenous estrogen than the one you can excrete. No? I think your formula is just not right. And you didn't answer: Where did you get the idea from ? This formula comes out of your specualtion ?

Two tablespoons NaCl is 35 grams. Your blood pressure would increase substantially as the salt attracts water from the cells. Don't be silly.
Effect of sodium intake on bloo

C'mon!! What I meant is that there is never gonna be a linear increase of plasma concentrations of a substance that you ingest. If you eat 35 grams of NaCl your blood is not going to hold 35 grams of NaCl. So there's no point comparing concentrations of estrogen in plasma and in milk. What did you want to say with that ? Maybe I didn't get it.

No. Clinical studies have shown significant extrogen plasma increases, and epidemiological studies have shown higher prostate cancer rates. For a primer on how milk is correlated with testicular cancer, look no further:

The first study you posted seems legit. Although the n was low and it was all Japanese, a culture with traditionally exceptionally low dairy consumption. And they use full fat milk with no other explanations on where it comes from. Four of the five women didn't regularly drink milk. Probably ot generating LACTASE to break down the huge ammount of lactose on the 600mL they had to drink. And so on. But ok, let's assume is legit.

This second one could be or could be not legit, I don't know. It doesn't have all the references, it's not published on a peer reviewed journal...

It is not a bad thing to read anyway... It draws attention to the fact that estrogen/progesterone content of XXI century milk is different than that from our ancestors because of farming practices. There's value of it.

MORE IMPORTANT : So this is all you have against dairy ? A n=7 (for men) study and something is not even published on a peer-reviewed journal ?

 

[Travis]

Figure 1:
(a) Increase of 25 ng/mL -> Is this a lot or not ?
(b) Increase almost unperceptible. 1 pg/mL ? I don't think this is relevant at all
(c) Increase in progesterone (I don't have to talk about it's protective and antiestrogenic effects, no?) of 0.1 ng/mL

Your first number has incorrect units. Let us look at the text for the study:

Serum E1 concentration was significantly increased and peaked 30–60 min after the intake of milk (mean 1 SE, before and peak: 102.3 ± 10.3 pg/mL and 128.9 ± 11.8 pg/mL, P < 0.02). Serum E2 concentration was unchanged during the 2 h examination (before and peak: 31 ± 4 pg/mL and 32 ± 4 pg/mL, NS).

(a) Increase of 128.9 - 102.3 = 26.6 pg/mL = 26.6 ng/L
This is a 26% increase is plasma estrone concentration.

(b)The estradiol concentration rose 1 pg/ml. You period (.) is deceptively close to this number, almost giving the impression that it is actually (.1). Cheap trick. Estradiol binds strongly to SHBG and whole-blood levels are more accurate. Free estradiol is only 1.89% of total blood estradiol.

(c)The increase of progesterone was .09 ng/mL.

C'mon!! What I meant is that there is never gonna be a linear increase of plasma concentrations of a substance that you ingest.

Multiple-dose, linear, dose-proportional pharmacokinetics of retigabine in healthy volunteers
I hope you aren't expecting me to give this comment any more consideration.

If you eat 35 grams of NaCl your blood is not going to hold 35 grams of NaCl. So there's no point comparing concentrations of estrogen in plasma and in milk.

So the concentration of a liquid doesn't matter because you don't absorb 100% percent of it? Yeah, OK.

This second one could be or could be not legit, I don't know. It doesn't have all the references, it's not published on a peer reviewed journal...

I know that. That's why I said:

For a primer on how milk is correlated with testicular cancer, look no further:

This is just a summary of research. You can find the studies actual referenced in this page my doing searches. Ganmaa Davaasambuu MD from the Harvard School of Public Health is certainly a legitimate researcher.

So this is all you have against dairy ? A n=7 (for men) study and something is not even published on a peer-reviewed journal ?

Do you have any evidence that milk doesn't increase plasma estrone levels?

 

[Travis]

Makhovsky said:

I think your formula is just not right. And you didn't answer: Where did you get the idea from ? This formula comes out of your specualtion ?

From Environmental Organic Chemistry [page 974-975]

We may also be interested in the modeling of chemicals which are produced by a nonlinear autocatalytic reaction, that is, by a production rate function, p(C₁), which depends on the product concentration, (C₁). Such a production rate can be combined with an elimination rate function, r(C₁), which may be linear or nonlinear and include different processes such as flushing and chemical transformations. Then the model equation has the general form:

dC₁/dt = p(C₁) - r(C₁)

The functions p(C₁) and r(C₁) can be plotted in the same graph (Fig21.6). Wherever the two curves cross, that is, for concentrations obeying:

p(C₁) = r(C₁)

the system has a steady-state.

This is the general idea. The change of concentration (dC₁/dt) is equal to the production rate (p(C₁)) minus the elimination rate (r(C₁)).

dC₁/dt = p(C₁) - r(C₁)

When the system is in the steady-state and the concentration isn't changing, the concentration rate of change is 0.

0 = p(C₁) - r(C₁)

Rearranging we have:

p(C₁) = r(C₁)

In a steady-state the production rate equals the elimination rate.

 

[Giraffe]

The Figure 2 is more worrysome. It lowers testosterone ??? What the hell ?

I think the effect is largely due to diurnal rhythm.

Study design: They had this people drink milk. "Serum samples were obtained before and 15, 30, 45, 60, 90 and 120 min after the milk intake." In figure 2 the the basal value (before milk ingestion) and the lowest value measured afterwards are reported. There is no control experiment.

Diurnal rhythms of serum total, free and bioavailable testosterone and of SHBG in middle-aged men compared with those in young men. - PubMed - NCBI

Both young and middle-aged men displayed a significant diurnal rhythm in all variables, with a minimum fall of 43% in total testosterone from peak to nadir in all subjects. [...] Acrophases for total, bioavailable and free testosterone occurred between 07.00 h and 07.30 h.

Acrophase = The time at which the peak of a rhythm occurs.

Also see table 2 in this study (I haven't read it yet): Hormonal response to lipid and carbohydrate meals during the acute postprandial period

 

[kwj]

Could it be possible that the estrogen found in milk be contributed by the packaging used?

The milk found in my local grocery store are mostly ultra high temperature processed and packaged in either PET bottles, or Tetra-paks which are lined with LDPE.

Even though these plastics are claimed to be BPA free, they could leach other unknown hormone disruptors into the fat of milk.

I have been drinking full fat milk (mainly for the calories and taste) from Tetra-paks for many months

Should I switch to Tetra-pak skim milk or consider giving it up?

 

[Wagner83]

This is definitely an interesting topic, my problem is apart from whey protein powder and gelatin powder it is difficult to find enough protein in the average diet. People who want to put on a lot of mass in the gym do consume a lot of whole milk, and it works, muscle growth/size is connected with estrogens, while dht gives more strength rather than volume.

 

[Wagner83]

I can't access to this one:

Hormones in milk:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S008367290860655X

 

[Wagner83]

Yesterday I drank a whole liter of 1.5% lactose free milk, and libido was very obvious during the night (quite void before that), I almost had a wet dream. Fat free milk had no such effects, also my face is more itchy and the skin looks worse. It's hard for me to not believe it has increased estrogens but I will continue experimenting.

 

[stargazer1111]

RP addressed this issue in interviews and email response.
Here is one quote from peatarian email exchange.

"[ESTROGEN IN MILK] High estrogen, relative to progesterone, interferes with lactation, and the enzymes that convert estradiol to the less active estrone and estriol are increased by progesterone. The amount of estradiol in milk is usually much less than one microgram per liter, and it's concentrated in the cream, so low-fat milk has very little estrogen. The cow's diet is probably a more important factor in the estrogen content of milk than pregnancy. The information in that abstract isn't enough to tell whether the study was done properly. "-RP

Total amount of estrogen found in the studies done by Remesar is abnormally
high compared to other studies that measured both free and conjugated estrogen.
If Remesar number is right and other studies are wrong then we are getting
460,000 ng estrogen from 1 liter of milk, which is almost 3 times higher than an adult male
produce every day. A female produce 630,000 ng/day. The author of the study proposed an explanation as to why Ramesar's number is so high.

"
Possible reasons for differences in estrogen concentrations
among studies include sample processing and antibody cross-
reactivity with other estrogens or cholesterol. The
methodology used in our study effectively separated E 1
from other estrogens and cholesterol. Even a small cross-reactivity
of the E1 antibody with the milligrams per milliliter concen-
trations of cholesterol in milk could lead to greatly inflated
values for E 1 and E 1S. In the two studies reporting nanograms
per milliliter concentrations of total E1 ,it was unclear
whether cholesterol was removed from the samples before analysis."
Estrone and Estrone Sulfate Concentrations in Milk and Milk Fractions

I know this is old, but I just have to chime in here. I am a biochemistry major at the University of Michigan, so I get free access to the full article with these studies. One of the most important things to do when judging a study is to look at the conflicts of interest and funding source.

Several of the researchers are members of the American Dairy Science Association. Also, the National Dairy Council funded this study. Although they claim there was no influence on the outcome, I am highly skeptical of this claim.

"

1. • CrossRef

STATEMENT OF POTENTIAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST Ann L. Macrina is a member of the American Dairy Science Association and declares no other conflicts. Troy L. Ott declares no conflicts. Robert F. Roberts is a member of the American Dairy Association and currently has a project funded by the Dairy Research Incorporated. Ronald S. Kensinger is a member of the American Dairy Science Association and declares no other conflicts.

FUNDING/SUPPORT This project was supported by funds from National Dairy Council (DMI contract No. 1321) awarded to R. S. Kensinger and T. L. Ott. The funding organization played no role in the design and conduct of the study; collection, management, analysis, and interpretation of the data; and preparation or approval of the manuscript.

Address correspondence to: Ann L. Macrina, PhD, Department of Dairy and Animal Science, The Pennsylvania State University, 324 Henning Bldg, University Park, PA 16802"

 

[Wagner83]

Prolactin and other protein hormones in milk.
Prolactin and other protein hormones in milk. - PubMed - NCBI

It would be nice if someone could post this study if he has access to it

 

[stargazer1111]

Prolactin and other protein hormones in milk.
Prolactin and other protein hormones in milk. - PubMed - NCBI

It would be nice if someone could post this study if he has access to it

Unfortunately, my U of M access does not have a copy of it. Maybe someone else can find it?

 

[Giraffe]

Prolactin and other protein hormones in milk.
Prolactin and other protein hormones in milk. - PubMed - NCBI

It would be nice if someone could post this study if he has access to it

 

[Wagner83]

Excellent thanks!

Spoiler: quote

For adults of any species, the PRL in consumed milk is probably hydrolyzed to its constituent amino acids prior to absorption. The concentrations of PRL in bovine milk (table 1) represent an infinitely small fraction of the total protein in milk. Considering all of these facts, there is probably no situation in which oral ingestion of milk PRL by adult humans would constitute a health hazard.
[...]
McMurtry et aL (1975) also noted significant seasonal effects on milk PRL in cows. Although these authors did not quantify plasma PRL, there are reports in the literature documenting some of the same seasonal influences on plasma PRL in cows (Koprowski and Tucker, 1973; Thatcher, 1974). In addition, the data in figure 1 for 5 or more days after parturition show that milk PRL concentrations were roughly equivalent to basal levels of plasma PRL (excluding milking-induced surges).


These same authors showed that milk PRL was significantly related to either daily milk yield or stage of lactation, but that inclusion Of either variable in the multivariate statistical analysis eliminated the significant relationship between milk PRL and the other variable. Measurement of milk PRL in dairy cows would be a poor indicator of either daily or lactation milk yields, especially since environment and stage of lactation also are related to milk PRL.

Date of parturition played a very important part in the prolactin content of milk (closer = more) , right before and until parturition it hovered between 200-380 ng/mL, after a few days it stayed around 30-40 ng/ml from what I can see on the table. Given that environmental factors also play a part (stress, hormones etc...) I don't know how relevant to us the prolactin content is. @haidut said he never felt well on commercial milk while quite a few reported lowered sex drive on it, increased sebum production in the scalp, acne etc..

 

[stargazer1111]

I drink commercial whole milk and have noticed nothing negative as long as my thyroid and body temp. are good.

I have noticed feeling a little unwell if I sugar the milk. But, not sure why that is. I do fine with ice cream and soda. Maybe it's mental.

 

[Wagner83]

I posted on an other thread that low fat no fat milk was associated with acne while whole milk was not , so perhaps the fat in milk is not superficial, @nikolabeacon suggested no fat milk would still have estrogens but no progesterone and other balancing/useful hormones.

 

[stargazer1111]

I have tried doing what Peat does with the low-fat milk to try and get my PUFA count under 4 grams per day. However, if I do this, I get severe dry skin to the point at which my knuckles bleed if I do it for too long. I feel best with a PUFA count around 10 grams or so.

I feel so much better with the full-fat dairy, including cheese. Low-fat dairy tastes like garbage to me. It makes me wonder if our taste buds are accurate in this case. Whole milk is incredibly tasty. Low-fat milk tastes like chemical water.

 

[Travis]

I wonder if the peptide hormones actually maintain bioactivity throughout pasteurization?

 

[Waynish]

I have tried doing what Peat does with the low-fat milk to try and get my PUFA count under 4 grams per day. However, if I do this, I get severe dry skin to the point at which my knuckles bleed if I do it for too long. I feel best with a PUFA count around 10 grams or so.

I feel so much better with the full-fat dairy, including cheese. Low-fat dairy tastes like garbage to me. It makes me wonder if our taste buds are accurate in this case. Whole milk is incredibly tasty. Low-fat milk tastes like chemical water.

I feel like there is an under-representation of this type of logic around here sometimes... Direct experience is very useful!

 

[Travis]

The only low-fat dairy that I like is Swiss cheese (Emmentaler).

Low-fat dairy doesn't really offer a reduction in steroid hormones since most of them are bound to the proteins themselves. I know that in humans, these lipoprotein–steroid bonds are covalent ether bonds (C–O–C).

And then there is the peptide hormones themselves.

Many people have allergies to milk, and some speculate that this is because of vaccines. Growth media, such as Mueller-Miller medium, contains casein which ends-up in the final product. Charles Richet in his Nobel Lecture outlines how injected proteins lead to anaphylactic sensitization:

Vinu Arumugham's articles can be found here.

The Central Dogma of Vaccination dictates that immunoglobulins form as a result of injected antigens (proteins). It should be no surprise that antibodies form as a result to injected food proteins as well. In addition to casein, egg protein can be found in egg-cultured vaccines such as the MMR.

Perhaps the hormones in milk are a lesser problem that antigenic proteins vaccine-induced by anaphylactic sensitization. Leaky gut will increase exposure to antigens as well as incomplete proteolysis in the digestive tract.

So this is another potential mechanism why milk is not as good as it was 500 years ago. Unnatural milking of pregnant cows leads to increased hormone concentration, vaccines induce allergies by delivering casein into the body, and pasteurization and homogenation leads to a great degree of chemical modification that barely has been studied.

The best milk would come from a non-pregnant goat and used raw, and vaccines are probably best avoided.

 

[Wolf]

My .02, I was drinking three gallons of milk a day for a period of three months in an effort to put on weight and completely shrug off three years of malnutrition(vomit/fecal losses). It worked, but I became very sensitive to any potential BS contained within the milk due to the fact that it was a good chunk of my calories(9000kcal). Walmart milk gave me terrible hives at 2L, Deans at 1 gallon, Organic(all the same) at 2 gallon, and Roundy's Select(Kroger/Mariano's) gave me no strange red spots or any other issues. My friend bought me a Trader Joe's milk, I drank a liter and told him it was garbage. Another note on the Walmart milk is that it gave someone I was working out with an ulceration on their bicep that disappeared upon stopping walmart milk(4 days).
N=5 since the group I train martial arts and go to the gym with wondered how I put on weight after being sick. Same results(some cheaped out on milk) and interesting results when someone ignored my recommendation to use lactase a certain way(at work too!).
Currently drinking Roundy's "Fat Free" milk and noticing much more heat loss from my body(higher temp) and focus. Let's hope everything stays nice and conjugated.