Generative Energy #15: A Bioenergetic View Of Addiction (with Haidut)

[Dan W]

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ixEpKzUOko
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[CoolTweetPete]

Generative Energy #15: #15: A Bioenergetic View of Addiction (with Haidut)

Awesome, thank you Dan. Can't wait to give a listen.

I've struggled with 'addiction' in the past and am curious what Georgi and Danny have to say.

 

[NathanK]

Really neat to hear about Giorgi's struggle with Bulgarian heroin addiction. I hope Danny doesnt edit that part out later

In all seriousness, I was a little surprised to hear that dopamine was lower in addicts. I would have assumed that it would be chronically higher. I guess the low level may be what is driving the need for more drugs.

It doesnt surprise me that cypro is good for addiction. I had assumed that was from the mild antagonism of dopamine (D2?), but apparently Giorgi says that it's effective because it suppresses the serotonin rebound that causes withdrawal symptoms. Sounds like it's two sides of the same coin. High serotonin=lower dopamine and if addictive substances increase dopamine when administered then when it leaves the system dopamine falls causing subsequent increase in serotonin.

Pramipexole is a dopamine D3/D2 agonist and one of the side effects is compulsion, hypersexuality, gambling, shopping, over and under eating, etc http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/734153. I havent seen this anywhere, but I would imagine by this notion that it could be addictive.

There is too much good stuff in this to quote, but this paper has a really good breakdown of the physiological effects of addicts on dopamine:
Full text: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1369263/
"Long considered the result of a lack of willpower, addiction is now understood to be a chronic, progressive and relapsing brain disease. Repeated administration of drugs—including alcohol and nicotine—in vulnerable individuals wreaks havoc with brain chemistry and structure, so on a brain scan one can clearly distinguish an addict's brain from a non-abuser's brain. Addiction can also extend to compulsive behaviours such as kleptomania and overeating, which are accompanied by similar changes in the brain. At the cellular level, synapse structure, cell shape and the way nerve cells communicate with each other also change regardless of the substance being abused ..."

More positively: "...like other chronic, relapsing diseases, addiction must be treated on a long-term basis, with the realistic goal of increasing the length of time between relapses. With preliminary evidence that abstinence, and certain compounds, can restore normal brain activity in addicts..."

Then again Upjohn has a patent on using low dose pramipexole for treating addiction. I assume it is from the old switcheroo. Keep serotonin low and there will be no withdrawal symptoms until the patient has been off the drug for an extended time.

http://www.google.com/patents/US6410579

Big thanks again to Giorgi for sharing his knowledge. These podcasts have been enlightening to say the least.

 

[Tarmander]

Hhnnngggggggg it was good

 

[dfspcc20]

Georgi mentioned that in most cases (75%?), additions resolve on their own after some number of years without intervention. Did he say what he suspected would cause that? Lifestyle or circumstances changing? Travelling to the future and listening to this podcast?

 

[Blossom]

That was excellent! Thanks Danny and haidut!

 

[Catcream]

http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comics_en/rat-park/
Comic about the rat park experiment mentioned by Haidut! Super discussion.

 

[tankasnowgod]

This particular episode was one of my favorites of this podcast.

I've been reading Aldous Huxley's "The Doors of Perception" and "Heaven and Hell," two short books (or long essays) on his time experimenting with Mescalin. His take is very interesting, and much more lucid than most drug propaganda I've seen. Basically, he thinks mescalin and other drugs limit the minds ability to reduce incoming information and focus solely on survival and biological functions. By doing this, people are able to connect to "Mind at Large," and also get lost in details of the universe that we usually ignore. For example, for a bit he was completely engrossed in the folds of his clothing.

Huxley mentions many of the chemical ways of doing this, from tobacco, alcohol, cocaine, heroin, opium, mescalin, peyote, and so on. He also mentions other ways the doors can be open, and these could be social, athletic, religious, or even work related. Some can be combined, like peyote with religious ceremonies. Even more interesting , he mentions how these states can also be induced by vitamin deficiency, hypnosis, fasting, strobe lights, and carbon dioxide.

His conclusion is that human beings need these escapes, and sometimes they need to be chemical. Also, he thought that further research was needed to find a substance that produces the beneficial short term effects, without the negative long term effects. And that it was obvious that any sort of prohibition would not be effective.

Anyway, I think Huxley's views square pretty nicely with the ideas about addiction mentioned in this episode. As for why many people seem to just outgrow their addiction, I think possibilities include-

1. People found another, more effective "Door In The Wall."
2. The stressful situation that caused the use (work, relationship, whatever) changed, and the substance was no longer needed.
3. The substance ceases to yield any benefits to the person taking it.

 

[NathanK]

Really neat to hear about Giorgi's struggle with Bulgarian heroin addiction. I hope Danny doesnt edit that part out later

In all seriousness,

As an fyi to anyone whom had not been a part of this forum for any length of time when I wrote this, this was a joke. Time has a way of distorting context. If anything, I was playfully trying to pique interest in the excellent interview and what was, at the time, Danny's new podcast venture series with Giorgi.

 

[lampofred]

How do you increase CREB?

 

[lampofred]

As an fyi to anyone whom had not been a part of this forum for any length of time when I wrote this, this was a joke. Time has a way of distorting context. If anything, I was playfully trying to pique interest in the excellent interview and what was, at the time, Danny's new podcast venture series with Giorgi.

Damn I guess Giorgi is really trying to hide his heroin past huh

Making you bump a year old thread AND getting Roddy to edit it out of the video

 

[NathanK]

Damn I guess Giorgi is really trying to hide his heroin past huh

Making you bump a year old thread AND getting Roddy to edit it out of the video

Haha, that's hilarious. The joke was an grenade. Apparently it took over a year to finally go off.

I just dont want to confuse lurkers whom arent regulars on the forum looking for more information.