Peat's Surprising Response To My Email. A "Ray Peat Vegan" Is Possible

Travis

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Nothing brings out the USDA shills like a vegan post.

And for Yoda who thinks that vegans are girly men: Exhibit A [Hackenschmidt] Exhibit B.[Adiel Tel-Oren] Exhibit C. [various athletes]

If you want to turn this into a flame war, I can post some extremely unflattering images of meat-eaters, and use said images to stereotype "omnivores" in general.

I bet John Ritter was a omnivore.
 

Ledo

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Putting aside the fact that their are 100,000,000,000 animals on this planet that are grown for human consumption, and that not eating animals would free up a massive amount of resources, mainly water and land. Those animals are also fed the majority of plants grown on this planet. So eliminating those animals and feeding the world in plants only would actually vastly reduce the amount of animals killed due to agriculture.

And then if we got rid of commercial agriculture and started feeding the world from an organic permaculture design, there would be little direct animal deaths at all.
You mean there would be little direct animal lives at all.
 

Travis

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In reference to the previously mentioned 2002 study by Sabrina Hickenbottom [sic] at UC Davis entitled: Variability in conversion of β-carotene to vitamin A in men as measured by using a double-tracer study design, in which they discovered that only 4.097 ± 1.208% of the deuterium-labeled beta-carotene was adsorbed, I will first point out that the USDA gave a $40 million grant to UC-Davis only one year before this study was published. This study, by its' tone, does seem rather biased.
If you look at Table 2, you will realize that every single member of the Responders group actually absorbed more beta-carotene than pre-formed vitamin A, but the absorption rate for pre-formed vitamin A is not reported. In fact, we can do just that by using the same method that they used for calculating the absorption rate of beta-carotene:
The fractional absorption of D6 β-carotene was calculated as 0.693/864 × AUC × dose × plasma volume/dose (9), where 0.693 is the natural log of 2 and 864 ± 216 h (±SD) is the half-life of plasma β-carotene
We don't know each person's plasma volume, but that doesn't matter since it is the only unknown variable: the fractional absorption is given to us. We can turn the equation around and solve for the plasma volume:

A(carotene) = 0.693/864 × AUC(carotene) × dose × plasma volume/dose
A(carotene) = 0.693/864 × AUC(carotene) × plasma volume [doses cancel]
plasma volume = A(carotene)(894)/.693(AUC(carotene))


And manipulating the pre-formed vitamin A equation the same way [assuming same half-life for retinol]

A(retinol) = 0.693 / 864 × AUC(retinol) × dose × plasma volume/dose
A(retinol) = 0.693 / 864 × AUC(retinol) × plasma volume [doses cancel]
plasma volume = A(retinol) × 894 / .693 × AUC(retinol)


Assuming that each patient has the same blood plasma volume from one week to the next, we can set these equations equal to eachother:

A(carotene) × 894 / .693 × AUC(carotene) = A(retinol) × 894 / .693 × AUC(retinol)
A(carotene) / AUC(carotene) = A(retinol) / AUC(retinol) [constants cancel]
A(retinol) = A(carotene) × AUC(retinol) / AUC(carotene)


And we have a simple relation that allows us to calculate the retinol absorbtion, since the USDA shill authors did not bother to report this. For the first four members of the responder group, we have as follows:

Subject ... beta-carotene abs. ... retinol abs.
#3 ................0.804% ................ 0.481%
#4 ............... 7.939% ................ 4.271%
#5 ............... 7.687% ................ 6.117%
#7 ............... 2.988% ................ 0.256%


Even more profound is subject #8, who absorbed way more carotene than retinol. You can see this graphically, here.

So why did the authors instead decide to report the low mean beta-carotene absorption and not the even lower retinol absorption?

And why were both of the values so low? From Beta-carotene bioavailability from differently processed carrot meals in human ileostomy volunteers.
Carotenoid mass-balance calculations indicated that 65.1 +/- 7.4% of the beta-carotene was absorbed from cooked pureed carrot meals, vs. 41.4 +/- 7.4 % from raw, chopped carrot meals.

Absorption of Vitamin A and Carotenoids by the Enterocyte: Focus on Transport Proteins

Retinol absorption efficiency ranges between 75% [36] and 100% [37–42]. Absorption efficiency of β-carotene ranges from 3% to 90% for [43–45]
 
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PeatThemAll

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What exactly did you eat, what multi, and any other supplements? About to start a diet like this myself.

Top of mind: steamed/boiled veggies, dense carbs were gluten-free cereal (the gf types of Rice Krispies ... no they're not all GF), rice (parboiled, more residual vitamins), 1 multivitamin a day (age group adjusted formulation), mixed berries (raspberry, strawberries, cherries, blueberries), raisins (sultana), whole grain steel-cut oats, marshmallows (not often), vegan protein powder.

Man did I lose weight, regardless of intake. People started giving me comments that I might have anorexia going on. My guess regarding the iron/anemia thing is that I come a lineage of meat eaters (both sides of the family tree), grew up on the typical North American diet, and thus did not activate the (epi)genetics to have "vegan" metabolic flexibility. Obligate carnivore, in a way. In retrospect, I did give the Esselstyn-style diet another couple of small trial periods after, but always came back to meat in one way or another. Nevermind dogma, the body (results) will not lie. I came to accept I have a limited metabolic flexibility, diet-wise, and 100% vegan isn't the solution for me.
 

mimi

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Awesome, thank you so much for this post. I'm totally interested. I've gravitated towards a plant-based diet again, after experimenting a LOT. I still have lots of gelatin/collagen from grass-fed cows. Also some seafood... but I can't help it, I love eating plants. I want to try to eat more fruit, cooked greans and potatoes. Nomnomnom. I've been avoiding oils, but maybe I add in some more coconut oil again. Minimal amounts, though.
 

Runenight201

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I think human health is the most important factor in the vegan debate. After all, the privilege of discussing veganism is a very modern affair, as we are just now approaching an era where we could potentially technologically hack a healthy vegan diet. This thread brings up great potential in terms of being able to have a truly healthy vegan diet. From a cost and time perspective, combined with people who are sick, it's probably easiest to utilize animal products in order to achieve proper metabolic functioning and vibrant health. Committing the sin of contributing to industrial farming is worth improving your health IMO. For many, it is very hard to treat people right and grow positively as an individual while in a sick state. However, once proper metabolic functioning and vibrant health is achieved, and one is able to afford more sustainable and ethical means of food, than that should become the priority.

Also, given the very important health benefits of glycine + proline, I find it difficult to see how a vegan diet is the most optimal. I think lab grown meats could be a TOTAL game changer, as if we could synthesize an exact replica of meat (or perhaps even make it better by creating the most optimal ratio of amino acids, higher on the glycine + proline side and lower on the methionine, cysteine, and trytophan side), then animal products could be completely irrelevant, as every other nutrient could be obtained through plants.

If we were to all forced to go vegan today, especially given the conventional "healthy" eating plan that would subsequently follow (too heavy emphasis on PUFAs, whole grains, legumes, nuts, seeds, not to mentioned packaged, processed fast food crap fake meat that would inevitably arise) I think we would eventually see a lot of very, very sick people, and a net negative effect on the human condition. We may save the planet but many, many people would be too miserable to enjoy being alive. That being said, the biggest net gain to the human condition would easily be the complete removal of all vegetable oil from the human food chain.
 
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Travis

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If we were to all forced to go vegan today, especially given the conventional "healthy" eating plan that would subsequently follow (too heavy emphasis on PUFAs, whole grains, legumes, nuts, seeds, not to mentioned packaged, processed fast food crap fake meat that would inevitably arise) I think we would eventually see a lot of very, very sick people, and a net negative effect on the human condition. We may save the planet but many, many people would be too miserable to enjoy being alive. That being said, the biggest net gain to the human condition would easily be the complete removal of all vegetable oil from the human food chain.

What about heme iron? You know that causes colon cancer right?
 

benaoao

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Besides veal liver every 2-3 weeks, crab+oysters+other shellfish regularly and sockeye weekly, I don’t see any nutritional improvement for extra animal foods. Clearly not needed.

Massive animal food consumption the way it’s done today makes no sense. Paleo people driving to Walmart to get loads of arachidonic acid eggs from chicks that barely saw the sunlight through some “pasture raised free range” hole? And bacon and CAFO style ground beef by the pound? And dairy from cows milked year round?

Good thing is, the body can heal from that nonsense. At least I know I’ve halved my cholesterol in the process.
 

benaoao

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Obviously NOT eating:
- more than 7g of PUFAs a day, 1:1 ratio
- whole grains, F that
- loads of legumes beans nuts and seeds. Only touching lentils, a bit of chia+flax, coconut, avocado. Come at me modern egg/meat/dairy fanboys :)

I agree that the current vegan tren allowed for too many idiots to eat junk vegan food mostly. Not any healthier than omnivore junk. I wish oils disappeared for good.
 

Runenight201

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Besides veal liver every 2-3 weeks, crab+oysters+other shellfish regularly and sockeye weekly, I don’t see any nutritional improvement for extra animal foods. Clearly not needed.

Do those foods have a lot of glycine + proline? If not, then there could be a lot of nutritional improvement through the addition of a gelatinous substance such as tendon, oxtail, beef shank, etc...

Also, eggs and milk from animals consuming their traditional diets (plenty of bugs and what not for chickens and grass for cows/goats) I would say is definitely very healthy for humans, but this requires going to your local farms, and definitely not buying from your standard grocery stores.

What about heme iron? You know that causes colon cancer right?

I didn't know that about heme iron, and I'm sure there's a strong case to reduce that, but does iron exacerbate the metabolic conditions to the same extent PUFA does? Excuse me if I'm off, but isn't it something like 80% of the America population suffers from Metabolic Syndrome? And this in turn results in so many of the chronic diseases we see today (but certainly not all). I think PUFA is the greater evil here vs iron. I mean, certainly, I'm not advocating for vociferous meat consumption, but if we were given the option to eliminate only one evil that would greatly improve the human condition, I'd rather go with vegetable oil as opposed to meat. It has completely saturated the American restaurant and packaged food industry. It's disgusting. At least with vegetable oil, everyone may suddenly became way healthier, stop being so inflammed, and awaken so to speak to greater causes, but probably not, because we are human, and the vast majority of us fall prey to our individual sensual desires, and fail to ever realize a larger picture.
 

benaoao

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The metabolic syndrome is largely caused by high insulin and high IGF-1 levels both of which readily triggered by high protein intake, mores specifically muscle meat. It’s not really a case of which one is worse, both of those were never consumed in the volumes consumed these days. The 3rd obvious player on that hell podium being excessive glucose devoid of nutrients or not satiating enough (think pop, flours, smoothies...).

You’re right about collagen, I do supplement it and that’s my only supplement left after years of popping god knows how many pills and drinking calories.
 

LLight

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The metabolic syndrome is largely caused by high insulin and high IGF-1 levels both of which readily triggered by high protein intake, mores specifically muscle meat. It’s not really a case of which one is worse, both of those were never consumed in the volumes consumed these days. The 3rd obvious player on that hell podium being excessive glucose devoid of nutrients or not satiating enough (think pop, flours, smoothies...).

You’re right about collagen, I do supplement it and that’s my only supplement left after years of popping god knows how many pills and drinking calories.

You might be interested by this video :

According to this guy, protein does not appear to spike insulin on a low carb diet.
 

benaoao

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I won’t look at another video on insulin I’ve got enough classes on the matter. It’s funny that he talks about the context around 8:30 (I skimmed through that)

“On a low carb diet”... well I recommend low carb to insulin resistant people as a first step. I think Ray Peat’s diet is great for insulin sensitive people and a disaster for insulin resistant people. So yea Context. The IR people got there eating the standard western diet, which is far from being low carb, has high animal protein, and high fats.
 
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urinal meme - i'm vegan.jpg
 
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One reason I started experimenting with the Peaty vegan approach was to do it for all those people who insist on being vegan for whatever reasons. You'll never change their mind if that's what they want to do. I wanted to see if there's at least a way to do it that won't suck all the life out of you. I thought I'd try this for a month or so but I felt so good I continued.

As I've stated in other threads I won't be a strict vegan 100% of the time. Cooked cultured dairy is the least problematic animal food for me. Also insanely tasty. Especially goat and lamb cheese. Eggs and beef are fine too but I haven't eaten them in a long time. I enjoy other foods more. Regular milk is the worst animal food for me. Gives me horrible bloating, brain fog, horrible mood, really stuffy nose so much so that I almost can't breathe.

Anyway I'm glad that I have experience which makes me able to give advice to anybody who wants to be vegan and I won't loose my sleep over it. I think a few years of avoiding PUFA has given me a good metabolism and the ability to produce enough cholesterol etc. Personally I wouldn't advice strict veganism for anyone who has been eating a lot of PUFA. But in those cases if someone still insists on being a vegan, maybe eating a generous amount of coconut oil and -milk helps.
 
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Personally I wouldn't advice strict veganism for anyone who has been eating a lot of PUFA. But in those cases if someone still insists on being a vegan, maybe eating a generous amount of coconut oil and -milk helps.
Probably a lower fiber approach too is best in these cases. Juice, skinless roots & tubers, refined grains, green broth etc.
 

Amazoniac

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- Dietary Protein and Amino Acids in Vegetarian Diets—A Review
Abstract said:
While animal products are rich in protein, the adequacy of dietary protein intake from vegetarian/vegan diets has long been controversial. In this review, we examine the protein and amino acid intakes from vegetarian diets followed by adults in western countries and gather information in terms of adequacy for protein and amino acids requirements, using indirect and direct data to estimate nutritional status. We point out that protein-rich foods, such as traditional legumes, nuts and seeds, are sufficient to achieve full protein adequacy in adults consuming vegetarian/vegan diets, while the question of any amino acid deficiency has been substantially overstated. Our review addresses the adequacy in changes to protein patterns in people newly transitioning to vegetarian diets. We also specifically address this in older adults, where the issues linked to the protein adequacy of vegetarian diets are more complex. This contrasts with the situation in children where there are no specific concerns regarding protein adequacy because of their very high energy requirements compared to those of protein. Given the growing shifts in recommendations from nutrition health professionals for people to transition to more plant-based, whole-food diets, additional scientific evidence-based communications confirming the protein adequacy of vegetarian and vegan diets is warranted.
 
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Interesting post. You are right that a Ray Peat Vegan would be a special type of Vegan. As typical vegans avoid Sugar and stuff their faces with nuts and seeds (PUFAs). The Ray Peat Vegan diet is like a Vegan on steroids. But I don't see the harm in milk and cheese? No animals have to die when eating milk and cheese. Ray peats diet is already pretty vegetarian as muscle meats are not really recommended by Peat.
I would not call Peat "vegetarian" by any means. He recommends MANY animal-based foods which I am fairly sure he eats himself. I am still not convinced that a vegan diet offers adequate nutrition for certain B vitamins/Fat-soluble vitamins/minerals. And even if it did, why would you do it???
 

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