Notes Toward An "Optimal Peat Diet"

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

cliff said:

old potatoes like the ones commonly found in stores(russet etc) versus new potatoes which are less starchy and only available during a certain season

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I wish I knew more about chemistry.
So, Cliff, you're saying a couple of interesting things:

1. New potatoes are less starchy than old potatoes.
2. Therefore new potatoes would be preferred by Peat.

I read Peat saying Russet as a type or kind of potato is good, in his view.
I guess he was making a comment about type or kind, not age...?

Thanks, Cliff.

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

There goes my plantians in coconut oil habit. Darn. :0(

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

debbieyoung said:

There goes my plantians in coconut oil habit. Darn. :0(

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Happily I never became addicted.
I tried one straight-up one time decades ago,
as one would eat a banana.
Yuck.

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

narouz said:

debbieyoung said:

There goes my plantians in coconut oil habit. Darn. :0(

Click to expand...

Happily I never became addicted.
I tried one straight-up one time decades ago,
as one would eat a banana.
Yuck.

Click to expand...

Oh No! You have to cook them They are very starchy, more akin to a potato.

Musings on How We Should Be Musing

I will apologize in advance if I become tedious.
I'm a Virgo...forgive me.

I see the difficulty of this little project of ours as being more a matter
of trying to figure out and be very clear about what we're trying to accomplish
and how to name it,
than finding and wading through all the Peat data.
I have confidence we will eventually be able to sort through all the Peat information out there
and weigh and winnow.
I don't see that as the hardest aspect.
It will be made easier the clearer we are on what we're trying to achieve.

I was turning over in my head what a poster, ARK, said here earlier:

It is also true that the sugar is used for healing. We are all healing. He says that most people do better on sugar. It is interesting that even he shies away from using the word "sugar". He also drinks coke and sees it as a tonic. If this is a Ray Peat forum we must not shy away from what Ray is about and that is the cell. If someone wants to embrace RP they have to realize that sugar is part of the equation. Sugar is for healing but, with the stress in our lives and the PUFA over many years.. we are all healing. I think healing for good.

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(emphasis mine, w/ the bolding)

"Healing."

I guess the less cheerful obverse is, "We are all damaged"
(and thus in need of healing).

I'm not quibbling one bit with ARK. I agree completely.
Well...actually, literally, I guess not "all" are damaged (yet!) by the evil PUFA.
Still, the sweeping application seems justified, from a Peat view.

And I believe it was Charlie who suggested "healing" as a keyword in naming this definition/category we're exploring.

So I was turning that over in my mind.

It has its attractions--"A Peat Healing Diet," or something along those lines.
But it also poses some problems.

1. Many, most even, would, I'd guess, see that title and think: "I don't want that kind of a diet...I'm not sick!" (even though they might indeed be when viewed from a Peatian standpoint! Are we just a bunch of hypochondriacs?! I'll have to start a thread on that!)

2. Also, it would seem to me to carry the implication that it would the kind of diet one might adopt for a while, then--when healthy--move on to some Peat Diet for Healthy People or something.

While I'm not in love with the term as a title for our project,
it did get me to thinking more generally.

I've talked about my problems with the "context is everything" relativism.
I don't think we have to be satisfied with that dead end (to me).
If we were we could just called our project "The Nebulous Peat Diet" and be done with it!

But while I don't agree with the extreme prioritization of context,
I do still think context is important and should be weighed.
This is what the "healing" thing started me thinking about again.

For instance, and as I've mentioned before:
Cliff has a certain view of a Peat diet which is related at least somewhat, I'd think, to his apparent youth, vigor, and intensely actively lifestyle. Cliff tends to say the potatoes, oatmeat, rice, and other carbs are pretty okay.
Danny Roddy thinks that the Peat diet is not restrictive, not difficult, and he also gives a fairly blithe thumbs up to potatoesand white rice. Take a look at Danny's photos and you see a young, healthy looking guy. Heck, he even looked great when he says he was sick!

The simple point I'm trying to make is about context.
You can gather why Cliff and Danny would tend to argue for a more open, approving view of the "safer" starches.
Neither seem to have any struggle at all with weight (and I think Cliff may even struggle--if at all--to gain weight.

On the other hand, you got old, damaged guys like me!
I'm pushing 60,
having been doing a fairly strict Peatish diet for about half a year,
but am somewhat fat (like 15-20lbs gained)
and haven't really experienced the dramatic increase in metabolism Danny and Cliff have.
And you've got Charlie, who would seem to be more in my boat in terms of metabolism
while hopefully being less ancient.

Now, if you read through the blogs which discuss Peat,
you will see a theme:
people gaining weight on a Peat diet
(or their interpretation of a Peat diet),
and sometimes seemingly giving up on it.

So, here's my question:
Should an estimation of those sorts of contexts
be a part of formulating this project?

In other words,
should part of our considerations be
questions like:

-From where (whence!), dietarily, do most people come to arrive at an effort at eating a Peat diet?

-How damaged (thus in need of healing)) are most people coming to Peat?

-How damaged do people view themselves as being when coming to Peat?

-Do most people coming to Peat already have some weight issues and hope through eating Peatishly to solve such problems?

-Is being or getting overweight or fat something we can agree is to be avoided on our projected Strict Peat Diet or Base Peat Diet (or whatever)?

-Would Dr. Peat agree with that?

-Cliff has said that it is his view that most people come to trying a Peatish Diet after going through some iteration of a Low Carb diet (Protein Power, Primal Blueprint, Caveman, Paleo, etc).; should that be a factor in shaping our imagined diet?

-Danny Roddy has expressed his views on Peat in a way that strongly centers on thyroid problems; some think there is a thyroid "epidemic" in modern societies; Danny also centers on problems with libido and mood/depression, which also seem to be pervasive. Should those kind of general viewpoints be part of the considerations in our thinking as we try to shape some "Strict Peat Diet"?

In short: should consensus be a part of our thinking?
Where are most Peatians coming from?
What do most want from a Peat diet?
What do most suffer from?
(And maybe: What does Peat think they suffer from and what does he think they should want? To illustrate: I don't think Peat has much interest in nor sees much value in body sculpting, looking lean and muscular, etc.)

Our project is after all an attempt to generalize amidst different contexts, isn't it?

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

narouz- I don't really think Ray thinks as his "Guidelines" for weight loss. I think he is trying to give us ideas of foods that will support good health. I believe that as a result of eating foods that are anti inflammatory in nature - the body will regulate itself. A person may not end up looking like the ideal that they had once imagined for themselves. But, on a proper diet the body will end up where it should be. I think that lots of people find Peat after doing low carb and sees that it doesn't really feel right. Also- Ray bases his ideas on science... and I think many of us have become frustrated with all the dogma out there. I call it a healing diet because If you are alive today your body is fighting a lot ( stress, toxins, Poor food quality) Yes... I guess you can say "damaged"- But if you are following Peat you are HEALING. It takes time to heal and... some will heal faster than others ( years not months). Still Peat looks forward- not backwards. So I would say healing. I don't like the word "diet". Ray really never uses that word. If you say diet in the US people think that means loosing weight. I think that peat talks about the weight loss because so many people ask him about it. I certainly do not feel this is a diet- It is a lifestyle.

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

I agree enthusiastically with most of what you say, ARK--that's why I love Peat's work.
The possibility for change, the patience required for that realistically to happen, the healing...yes.

About the word "diet" I would simply point out that you write...

I don't like the word "diet". Ray really never uses that word. If you say diet in the US people think that means loosing weight.

Click to expand...

...but then, notice that you do have a need for the word (and a concept even, maybe)...

But, on a proper diet the body will end up where it should be.

Click to expand...

If for no other reason,
if we are interested in communicating about Peat,
I don't think we need to censor the word "diet" from our language.
If we do,
communicating becomes very much more difficult
and much more vague.

Yes, "diet" does carry the unfortunate connotation of weight loss.
By "diet" I do not mean that,
although in a post above I did wonder if something akin to that
that might be one of many legitimate considerations--
Not "weight loss" but simply having a healthy weight
or perhaps even a weight one liked.

The way I see it a Peat diet should not be judged
mainly or even predominantly
on its effectiveness at creating a slim, muscular, sculpted, 6-pack abs (or whatever) look....

I would think it should be judged on health--physical and mental and emotional--primarily.
But I don't see any reason to exclude a discussion of weight or body image
as part of that larger discussion about health.
I mean, isn't one's weight a real aspect of health?
Isn't there an "epidemic of obesity" occurring?

More complicatedly, if you go over, say,
to a website like "Mark's Daily Apple,"
you can read a thread

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread59985.html

where those devout Primalists jumped all over Danny Roddy
in large part because they were so locked onto Body Image and Muscularity.

Those Paleo posters were not crazy.
They are very representative of a lot of the people in the world today exploring diet.
They posted mostly reasonable worries about how one could stay "fit looking" on a Peat diet.
I don't agree with them,
but I'd like be able to converse with them.
Even if I had to say to them, "Yes, you probably will get a little 'fat' on a Peat diet,"
I'd feel silly not being able to use the word with them,
and use it with some kind of clarity.

If there is a good substitute word for "diet," I'm all ears!

But, as I said: in general I love your take on Peat. Thanks.

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

How about "Lifestyle"? Ray Peat Lifestyle. Living life the RPL way.

I dunno, was just a thought. About to head to bed and thought I would throw that in real quick.

narouz, you are such a gift to this community. Thank you.

Overheard at Starbucks

Mike: Hey man! Long time no see!
Darley: Yeah, I moved a few blocks away.
Mike: So how ya doin’? You still doing that Caveman diet thing?
Darley: No, I changed that actually. I’m eating a…[voice trails off]
Mike: What was that?
Darley: I’m, uh, eating a Ray Peat lifestyle.
Mike: What?
Darley: I mean I’m living a Ray Peat lifestyle.
Mike: Yeah…Peat. You were talking about him a little last time I saw you. I thought he was into like nutrition and diet.
Darley: Well, he is. I mean nutrition. But it’s more complex.
Mike: Well…what ya been eating? Looks like you put on a few pounds. [pokes playfully at Darley’s protruding belly.]
Darley: It’s just glycogen and water, so it’s a good thing. [looks off] It’ll go away when I heal.
Mike: OK. So on this Ray Peat lifestyle, what is your diet? I mean what kinds of things do you eat?
Darley: We don’t like to use the word “diet.” It scares people.
Mike: Really?
Darley: Yeah…makes them think of scales and anorexia.
Mike: Ya think? Okay. Well…I still am curious about your…I mean I’m wishing I could get an idea of what you’re eating.
Darley: It’s all about context. And healing.
Mike: Right. Gotcha. But...food? Like foods you put in your mouth?
Darley: It all depends.
Mike: Okay, never mind. You say you’re doing this Ray Peat “lifestyle.” What kind of stuff do you do on that kind of lifestyle?
Darley: Well…just the usual. Peat doesn’t say too much about it. He mostly talks about food.
Mike: Jeezus! Stay in touch man.

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

I feel your pain man, I feel your pain.

The ever elusive Peat Eating Plan. I am going to dose up on some sugar and see if I can come up with something. I feel like a kid again trying to catch a well greased up pig. No puns inteded!

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

I have to say that in all my 53 years on this orb if there is ONE thing that I have finally and painfully learned is that your body and your mind are unique. Ray is telling us what works for him and what he has studied and researched. Which is awesome and valuable.
IMHO, there is no One Size Fits All in Any faction of life, because if it were that simple there would be no Ray Peat Forum, 30 Bananas a Day, Paleo Solution or Livin La Vida FREAKIN Low Carb site!

so.. my take is, use what works, study the science, test in a N=1 style and adapt to YOUR unique needs.
I love Peatiness, it mostly works for me. But I do add in my own twists as I am also fighting off CLL (chronic leukemia), successfully so far for five years.

Maybe the quest is not to Name that squirming mass of intelligence that is the Ray Peat website and podcasts but to share what works for us and tweak as needed for your own body/mind/lifestyle. Danny Roddy has done a stellar job at making Peat more digestible, this forum is super helpful too as is the Ray Peat Fans FB page and the Rubin's podcast interviews.
Again, my two cents is, that's enough for me.

That Squirming Mass of Intelligence"

Loved that turn of phrase Debbie!
So many things I could (or have said or may) say in response,
but for now you do realize that my intention with this thread is
emphatically, absolutely, irrevocably NOT for it to play out like this:

Debbie: Hello.
Caller: Yes, hello Ms. Young. It has come to our attention here at the Ray Peat Forum that you are in non-compliance with "A Strict Peat Diet."
Debbie: ...Come again?
Caller: Could I have your social security number please?
Debbie: What?
Caller: Username and password will suffice.
Debbie: Who is this!?
Caller: Ms. Young, I'm afraid we are going to have to revoke your board privileges. Furthermore, we must place your account with the Stigmatization Bureau, which will herewith watermark all your posts and other emails as "Strict Peat Non-Compliant." We are sorry to have to do this. If you can work your way back within the strictures of "A Strict Peat Diet" we will, after a 3 year waiting period, re-instate you into our good graces.
Debbie: You'll hear from my lawyer on this!
Caller: Would you please take the time to fill out a brief follow-up questionaire? Press 1 to answer questions, press 2 to end this dialog.

You do understand, Debbie, that's not where I'm coming from, yes? :)

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

" Peat eating Plan" - LOVE that!!

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

ARK said:

" Peat eating Plan" - LOVE that!!

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Hey...that's not too bad....

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

"PEP" yourself up with the "Peat Eating Plan"!

I can be a dork sometimes, forgive me.

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

Narouz: )
PEP, I can live with that!

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

Hmmmm, we could be onto something. This is from the dictionary. The bold emphasis is mine.

---

pep (pp) Informal
n.
Energy and high spirits; vim: "The duchess is full of pep, that particularly American word that expresses precisely her energy and gaiety" (Suzy Menkes).

tr.v. pepped, pep·ping, peps
To bring energy or liveliness to; invigorate: The good news pepped him up.

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

I vote Yes!

The Peat that Can Be Spoken

debbieyoung said:

I have to say that in all my 53 years on this orb if there is ONE thing that I have finally and painfully learned is that your body and your mind are unique. Ray is telling us what works for him and what he has studied and researched. Which is awesome and valuable.
IMHO, there is no One Size Fits All in Any faction of life, because if it were that simple there would be no Ray Peat Forum, 30 Bananas a Day, Paleo Solution or Livin La Vida FREAKIN Low Carb site!

so.. my take is, use what works, study the science, test in a N=1 style and adapt to YOUR unique needs.
I love Peatiness, it mostly works for me. But I do add in my own twists as I am also fighting off CLL (chronic leukemia), successfully so far for five years.

Maybe the quest is not to Name that squirming mass of intelligence that is the Ray Peat website and podcasts but to share what works for us and tweak as needed for your own body/mind/lifestyle. Danny Roddy has done a stellar job at making Peat more digestible, this forum is super helpful too as is the Ray Peat Fans FB page and the Rubin's podcast interviews.
Again, my two cents is, that's enough for me.

Click to expand...

Getting back to your great post, DebbieYoung...
gotta say it again,
I really do love that phrase ("squirming mass of intelligence"). :)

And if I may quote you again, you write:

Maybe the question is not to Name...but to share
what works for us and tweak as needed for your own body/mind/lifestyle"

Click to expand...

I think I have an idea of where you're coming from,
and I absolutely respect your right to navigate through PeatWorld like that.
I agree with you that we are all different and have different needs.
I see nothing at all wrong with that way of operating,
and I do not have the slightest wish to interfere with you in any way.
And I would add that I myself mostly communicate about Peat in that mode.

You enjoy and delight in the "squirming mass of intelligence"
and have no interest in sorting through it, straining it, analyzing it,
and making rational generalizations about it.
(I hope I'm not mangling your thinking.)
As you so nicely put it,
you do not wish "to Name, but to Share."

That resonates, and calls to mind Lao Tzu's poetry:
“The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.”
To subject the Tao to rational analysis is to miss the point.
And so too, in your view as I take it, to miss the Point of Peat
(or perhaps I should say The Way of The Peat ).

I would add, DebbieYoung, that you are far from alone in that mode of considering Peat.

One only has to look as far as Peat's great interest in William Blake
(upon whom Peat did his master's thesis)
to see that Peat has long shown
a clearly anti-authoritarian mindset.
And if one reads his prolific work one sees at every turn
his running disdain for corporate authority
and the current scientific Establishment.
Like Blake he is a visionary and a rebel.

That may in part explain why many Peat followers, like yourself,
strongly insist on your general way of approaching Peat's work:
you resonate with Peat's anti-authoritarianism, perhaps,
and see efforts to analyze his work and to define it
as reductive and missing the point--
and also, maybe, as a kind of power play
designed to exclude...?

That said, I do have to say that my aim in this thread is different from your approach.
And I believe that those different approaches can coexist perfectly peacefully.

Here, in this thread,
I do wish to be rational about Peat's work.
I do want to analyze it.
I do want to generalize about it.
And I do not worry that by doing so
I will destroy it or even mess it up.
I do not believe that
"The Peat that can be told is not the eternal Peat."

I love Peat's work, am humbled by it,
and regard it with tremendous respect and admiration and gratitude.
But I do think I can speak about it--
preferably, clearly.

"Diet"

ARK said:

I don't like the word "diet". Ray really never uses that word. If you say diet in the US people think that means loosing weight. I think that peat talks about the weight loss because so many people ask him about it. I certainly do not feel this is a diet- It is a lifestyle.

Click to expand...

ARK, I've been mulling this diet-word thing.
Here is a dictionary definition of the word:

di·et/ˈdī-it/
Noun: The kinds of food that a person, animal, or community habitually eats.

Click to expand...

"Diet" is exactly the word for expressing what I am trying to communicate.
If we go out of our way to avoid it,
and employ instead a circumlocution
("eating plan")
aren't we revealing a kind of cowardice?
Or perhaps an intentional effort to obfuscate? To prettify?

Let me say that I think I have some idea of where you're coming from
in wishing to avoid the word ("diet").
Putting myself in your place...
you, I gather, are a Peatish practioner, a healer.
I have great respect for that.
I can understand how, in that capacity,
you find it useful to avoid the word.
(Just to quibble a bit here:
if I were your patient,
and you said you were going to put me
on a Peat "diet"
or, alternatively,
on a Peat "eating plan"...
...personally, I don't think it would make a bit of difference to me,
but you're the pro
and I'm sure you know your business. )

Anyhow...
I understand your point of view about "diet,"
and I'm fine with that.
But as with DebbieYoung (above)
I would have to say that my considerations with this thread
are different
from your considerations as a practitioner with patient sensitivities to deal with.

The qualities foremost in my mind with this humble project here are:
-accuracy to Peat
-truth
-clarity
-concision

Whereas you may (reasonably and understandably and admirably) need to be concerned with conveying
to your clients values like:
-warmth
-acceptance
-inclusion
-assurance that the "eating plan" is not hard or even easy

So, we do have different goals.
But let me say--and I firmly believe this--that I think
our different goals can peacefully coexist,
and even mutually support each others'.

I hope I don't come off as a d*** here....
(It's the Virgo in me.)