Some reported bad effects too.
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Agreed, but those bodybuilders usually take unphysiological doses of DHT or its synthetic derivatives designed for oral use. A common dose I have seen discussed on so many forum is 25mg-50mg of say Proviron daily. Even 25mg dose of Proviron will suppress BOTH the synthesis of E and T, and we don't want that. A 5mg dose on the other hand (of any DHT-type steroid) usually lowers E to healthier levels, which allows T to rise even more both of which have a rather positive effect on libido and systemic health. Taking pure T, which is also often done in unphysiological doses, suppresses HPGA much more easily than DHT-type steroids due to its conversion into estrogen. It is estrogen that is the true negative feedback driver on HPGA. That is why AI raise T levels - i.e. by removing the negative feedback on HPGA. DHT is much less suppressive of HPGA compared to T but in higher doses it inhibits 17b-HSD3, which is responsible for T synthesis. In lower doses it is still a potent aromatase inhibitor, an androgen agonist (duh), inhibitor of TPH (serotonin synthesis), and cortisol antagonist (albeit weaker than T) without affecting T synthesis much. Most studies show aromatase inhibition by DHT (and other 5-AR steroids like androsterone) in the low nanomolar up to 1uM concentration range, which is achievable with doses in the 1mg-5mg range. Of course, bodybuilders are usually after that cut-and-dry look and health concerns usually come in second. So, they do not like the whole low-dosing regimen. But if health is the primary concern and if DHT-type steroids are used sensibly and in physiological doses, they can provide quite a bit of benefit while possibly even raising endogenous T. Thus, no need to run cycles with massive doses of T only to get suppressed and then do all kinds of dangerous stuff like hCG (known carcinogen when used in higher doses), clomid (highly estrogenic in the brain, has killed some patients with MS) or tamoxifen (estrogenic/carcinogenic in the prostate), etc.
Just my 2c.
cyclops
Member
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- May 30, 2017
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- 1,636
Great post.
A number studies say otherwise. Here are two examples:
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The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.
"Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function."
The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic... - PubMed - NCBI
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The effect of mesterolone administration to normal men on the pituitary-testicular function.
"The results suggest that mesterolone given in doses of 75 and 150mg/day to normal men does not suppress the pituitary ICSH production or the testicular testosterone production."
The effect of mesterolone administration to normal men on the pituitary-testicular function. - PubMed - NCBI
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Not sure how relevant those studies are or who funded them, people have reported adverse effects with less than that, both in terms of suppression and liver function. DHT Giving Me Heartburn?
Gonadal Suppression
Proviron Is Curing My PFS Symptoms But Need Some Help
DHT Vs Testosterone Safety
DHT Has Little Impact On LH Secretion
I already said that DHT-type steroids are less suppressive of HPGA than aromatizable steroids. Not sure how these studies disagree with what I said. The suppression of T from DHT-type steroids comes from inhbition of 17b-HSD3. Google for "DHT 1b-HSD3" or "androgen suppression 17b-HSD3". There are several studies showing administration of DHT to humans tanked T levels. Oxandrolone, another DHT derivative, lowers T levels in humans by more than 40% at a dose of just 15mg daily. You can find all of those studies on Google.
Koveras
Member
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There was also this one
Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1977 May;6(5):339-45.
The hormone response to a synthetic androgen (mesterolone) in oligospermia.
Jackaman FR, Ansell ID, Ghanadian R, McLoughlin PV, Lewis JG, Chisholm GD.
Forty subfertile men with oligospermia were treated with a synthetic androgen (Mesterolone). The effect of the drug was evaluated by measuring serum testosterone, luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and analysing the semen before and after treatment. The results demonstrated that in twenty-three patients treated for 6-9 months there was a significant decrease in serum testosterone (P less than 0.01); the means +/- SEM before and after treatment were 17.05 +/- 0.95 and 14.7 +/- 0.95 (nmol/l serum) respectively. There was a pronounced increase in serum LH (P less than 0.01), the values being 2.73 +/- 0.26 and 3.61 +/- 0.3 (u/l) respectively. However, no significant difference was found in serum FSH before and after treatment. The sperm concentration showed a variable response to treatment. In twenty-one patients there was either no change or worsening in the sperm concentration, whereas in nineteen patients an improvement was observed. The analysis of variance of sperm concentration and motility for the periods before and after treatment, for all the patients, showed no significant difference in the sperm concentration F1.145 = 2.82 (P=0.1).
Yep, thanks for that link. There are actually several synthetic derivatives of DHT, which have had their 3-keto group replaced by carbonitrile (which removes its androgenic effects) and those are being used as 17b-HSD3 inhibitors for prostate cancer "treatment".
sladerunner69
Member
While you claimed people had reported adverse effects with less than 25mg, 2 of the people in these threads you linked had been using 50mg of DHT gel, one used 40mg, and only the guy with Post Finasteride Syndrome used less than 25mg. PFS makes it very difficult to respond well to supplemental androgens, no one who has taken these things has remarked positively. If the dose is very small, like just a few mg, and taken with progesterone or pregnenelone, guys tend to respond better. I think this is because a certain amount of preg and prog is needed to balance out androgenic activity. This is clear enough to me through reading people's logs although I'm not clear on precisely why.
I replied to a post which quoted studies, look at the doses used in the studies.
I do not really understand what PFS sufferers mean when they say that androgens make them "worse." Does it worsen cognitive function? Sexual function? Anxiety? Brain fog? I know that they are all connected in some way, but things get confusing when reading the PFS thread because everyone seems to be talking about a different set of symptoms. Also, I don't think many PFS guys have actually tried bioidentical DHT from a trusted source. 11-keto-dht is NOT DHT...
I'm not sure who funded the studies either, but they appear more relevant to my particular use case than the anecdotal reports you quoted. One thing those threads have in common is dosing multiple times per day. This could be the reason some see suppression and others do not.
There is more discussion on the topic here:
Experiences with Proviron/DHT?
Perhaps I misunderstood what you said. You know far more about this than I do. I posted the articles for sake of discussion, not in an attempt to correct you. I should have been more clear. I'm here to learn. Do you think the HPGA suppression discrepancy in studies may be due to the number of times per day Proviron is taken?
I do not have access to the full text of the study. Do you know how many timers per day the Proviron was taken?
In one of the link there's a study on dht at lower doses and fewer months than in the ones you posted and it reported significant suppression. There is anecdotical feedback on liver issues with much less proviron and fewer months on it. I just find the studies you quoted a bit odd because they claim there's 0 liver issues after long term high dose proviron and no suppression. The doses used are absurdly high. Perhaps, as you suggested, with one huge dose the
DHT Has Little Impact On LH Secretion
From the wiki:
Because mesterolone is not 17α-alkylated, it has little or no potential for hepatotoxicity.[1] However, its risk of deleterious effects on the cardiovascular system is comparable to that of several other oral AAS.[1]
Also interesting stuff:https://books.google.ch/books?id=ZiZ7MWDqo5oC&pg=PA411&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
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I agree. The discrepancy is odd. I don't read enough studies to be able to spot any flaws in their methodology or conflicts of interests. I didn't look at the liver issues - just suppression. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can chime in on the discrepancy.
I'm still interested in whether reports and studies showing DHT at lower doses causing suppression were due to multiple doses per day. This is what Bill Roberts speculated here, and I believe he knows a thing or two on the subject.
Experiences with Proviron/DHT?
Here's a study that shows suppression, but they were administering DHT twice per day.
Effects of 10 days administration of percutaneous dihydrotestosterone on the pituitary-testicular axis in normal men. - PubMed - NCBI
Effects of 10 days administration of percutaneous dihydrotestosterone on the pituitary-testicular axis in normal men. - PubMed - NCBI
No offense taken, just saying your studies are consistent. I think some type of DHT-derivatives are less suppressive. Proviron seems to be milder than say oxandrolone. Drostanolone is another less suppressive one. And of course, the smaller the dose the quicker it should metabolize so the less suppressive it is likely to be.
Another suppressive effects I did not mention in my response to you is the negative feedback mechanism through Leydig cells. Those cells express the androgen receptor and elevated levels of strong androgens suppress gonadal synthesis. However, the suppressive effects of an androgen on Leydig cells seems to depend on the steroid lipophilicity, and less lipophilic steroids like Proviron are less likely to be suppressive through that mechanism. However, that also reduces their strength as androgens and this is why oxandrolone seems to be a much more potent steroid than Proviron, and why prople take Proviron in doses 5-10 times higher to get the same affects as oxandrolone. Since DHT is even more lipophilic than oxandrolone I'd expect it to be either as suppressive or even slightly more than oxandrolone. But oxandrolone is typically used orally and is almost 100% bioavailable. So, a comparatively suppressive dose of DHT would probably be in the 50mg+ range as it is commonly administered transdermally and the absorption of most commercial products is below 20%.
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@haidut, all things considered, what do you believe are the safest options for those looking for purely androgenic effects? Improvements in mood, increased body hair growth, voice deepening, etc.
For example, a test subject who believes they would benefit from DHT and has the following values:
Normal testosterone (around 639 ng/dL)
High estrogen (around 39 pg/mL)
Low DHEA (around 104mcg/dL, below range)
Mid to high cortisol (around 17 mcg/dL)
I've have researched the following:
Proviron - No more than 50mg/day - preferably 25mg/day. Dosed once daily
Androsterone (R-DHEA)
11-keto DHT
Creatine to naturally raise DHT
Butea Superba to naturally raise DHT (reliable studies are lacking, but anecdotal reports are encouraging)
Disclaimer: I'm not asking you to do all the leg work for me here, and I'm not soliciting any type of medical advice. I'm in the beginning stages of some research, and anything you can add would be very helpful. I've gone through quite a few threads on this site and more studies than I care to count. I just need to focus my research a bit, because the sheer volume of information is a bit overwhelming.
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Given the links in my edited post as well as the studies you posted, despite what haidut said about liver toxicity* with added an methyl group it seems that mesterolone is pretty safe, even for the liver. The drug has been around for 80 years too. Still, member stud reported damaged liver from it.
@lifestyle, you could try sprints if your physical condition allows you to do them.
*
@lifestyle, you could try sprints if your physical condition allows you to do them.
*
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Andractim is probably a good option for DHT. If not available then I would use androsterone as a reliable precursor that should raise endogenous DHT levels. I don't think R-DHEA is the same as androsterone we sell. Many vendors call 1-DHEA, 2-DHEA, and 4-DHEA "androsterone" but none of these is correct. There is only one real androsterone and it is called 5α-androstan-3α-ol-17-one. Creatine is probably good for raising DHT and I think @Wagner83 had some good results with Tribulus, so maybe he can share some of his experience.
After 3 weeks of use it led to a slight increase in libido, morning wood, possibly digestion and mood at 1.5g a day, 40% protodioscins (verified). I only used it for a month though, I think the recommended course is 3 months, and given how long it took to start kicking in it makes sense. One guy who suffered from low T and is now on 2.5 grams a day feels like an absolute beast. I know of only two true 40% protodioscin sources, tribulyze and tribestan (the one haidut tried). There are a lot of interesting studies on it. The benefits I noticed after 1 month of use were quite mild. I prefer Tongkat Ali, but haidut and quite a few others have noticed anger and agitation on it, some people reported an increase in blood pressure. As for tribulus someone I know has been doing high doses (for two years) with no reduction in effects, he's doing great.
I insist on sprints though, if I eat, sleep and recover well they feel great.
I insist on sprints though, if I eat, sleep and recover well they feel great.
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