TocoVit - Liquid Vitamin E From Wheat Germ Oil

Amazoniac

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Waving my freak flag :hungover:
Some questions if you don't mind:
- How much were you taking?
- What route?
- After stopping it, how long did it take to return to normal?
- Your average cupre consumption is on the lower or higher side?
- What about choline?
- How much vit C, vit K and proteid were you getting?

I was suspecting that if there's one nutrient that's likely to be interfered the most based on what was posted here is copper. It can explain everything ranging from anemia and fatigue to typhoid disturbances. Perhaps a redistribution of some sort as it happens when you take a lot of vit C or through hormonal effects like estrojen (with clues from tit issues as well, for a lack of refinement). Copper is required for collagen and vascular integrity, so anything related to skin manifestations such as dermatitis but also bleedings can involve it. Lipid alterations from changes in copper adequacy is classic. It's also a more likely candidate to be depleted than iron given the frame time.

It wouldn't be surprising if the intolerance to foods high in calcium was due to its effects on vit K.
 

Amazoniac

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No indication that it worsened an iron deficiency, it actually helped in correction:

- Role of vitamin E in iron deficiency anemia

upload_2019-2-15_19-47-3.png

"As to the cause of decreased serum vitamin E level in iron deficiency anemia, increased vitamin E demand in the body and insufficient intake of dietary vitamin E were considered to be major factors."

"Increased demand for vitamin E in the body may be explained by increased consumption of vitamin E due to remarkable change of endocrine function and rapid iron turnover in iron deficient state. Vitamin E is known to have close relationship with endocrine functions, particularly with the function of sex glands.[6,7,8,9]"

"Therefore, remarkably increased excretion of gonadotropin due to ovarian dysfunction which, as previously reported,[5] was observed in most iron deficiency anemia may bring about the increased demand for vitamin E."

"It is known that vitamin E has reducing action on iron,[10] reducing it from ferric to ferrous iron."

- Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism (978-1-133-10405-6):

"The release of iron from ferritin stores requires mobilization and reduction of Fe3+. Reductases and/or reducing substances such as riboflavin (FMNH2), niacin (NADH), or vitamin C may play roles in the reduction of the iron."

"Following this reduction of iron to release it from storage, Fe2+ is transported to the cell's plasma membrane, where it must bind to ferroportin and be reoxidized. This reoxidation of iron requires ceruloplasmin and enables it to bind to transferrin for transport in the blood to other tissues."

upload_2019-2-15_19-47-45.png

"Ferrokinetic studies disclosed the fact that rapid turnover of iron with frequent reduction of iron from ferric to ferrous iron occured in cases of iron deficiency anemia.[11] Accordingly demand for vitamin E was considered to increase in cases of iron deficiency anemia."

"Increased vitamin E level following iron therapy may be explained as follows. After recovery from anemia iron turnover is known to return to normal, resulting in decreased demand for vitamin E for reduction of iron. This decreased demand for vitamin E may be considered to increase serum vitamin E level to normal rate."

"The facts that vitamin E was effective for prevention of relapsing and for treatment of iron deficiency anemia with insufficient recovery may indicate favorable effect vitamin E on erythropoiesis in iron deficiency anemia."

It must be something else. But regarding interference with vit C, it improved its steady level in blood (healthy people):

- Partners In Defense, Vitamins E And C


--
- Vitamin E: Emerging aspects and new directions (!)

upload_2019-2-15_19-49-37.png

- Aldehyde Dehydrogenase
- Molybdenum, Hard To Pronounce, Harder Still To Obtain

:confused2 :confused2 :confused2
 
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Jon

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Some questions if you don't mind:
- How much were you taking?
- What route?
- After stopping it, how long did it take to return to normal?
- Your average cupre consumption is on the lower or higher side?
- What about choline?
- How much vit C, vit K and proteid were you getting?

I was suspecting that if there's one nutrient that's likely to be interfered the most based on what was posted here is copper. It can explain everything ranging from anemia and fatigue to typhoid disturbances. Perhaps a redistribution of some sort as it happens when you take a lot of vit C or through hormonal effects like estrojen (with clues from tit issues as well, for a lack of refinement). Copper is required for collagen and vascular integrity, so anything related to skin manifestations such as dermatitis but also bleedings can involve it. Lipid alterations from changes in copper adequacy is classic. It's also a more likely candidate to be depleted than iron given the frame time.

It wouldn't be surprising if the intolerance to foods high in calcium was due to its effects on vit K.

The amount I took varied depending on how much PUFA I ate from day to day. I can’t remember now how I figured it out but it was something like for every 1g of PUFA ingested you need like 2mg of vit E?

I think that usually worked out to like 10-20mg a day taken orally for me (hardly anything at all).

For choline I mostly get mine from eggs (3-4 a day) along with leafy greens, and once I awhile some liver.

I usually get about 1mg if K1 from cooked spinach and supplement 5mg K2 mk-4 daily.

I usually get 400-500mg vitamin c from diet (fruit, veggies, juice)

I also eat roughly 1g of protein per lb of body weight, though I only target to get 0.8g of protein per lb of lean mass. I just usually end up getting extra inadvertently.

It took forever to go away. The stomach issues (nausea) went away after like 3 weeks, but the odd spacey feeling like I couldn’t focus my attention on anything and just wanted to stare off into space lasted considerably longer, like 3 months or so.

I Don’t know? Maybe I just really didn’t need any because my diet is good, I’m lean, and exercise? Perhaps only a little bit was plenty to cause copper to drop?
 

Amazoniac

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The amount I took varied depending on how much PUFA I ate from day to day. I can’t remember now how I figured it out but it was something like for every 1g of PUFA ingested you need like 2mg of vit E?

I think that usually worked out to like 10-20mg a day taken orally for me (hardly anything at all).

For choline I mostly get mine from eggs (3-4 a day) along with leafy greens, and once I awhile some liver.

I usually get about 1mg if K1 from cooked spinach and supplement 5mg K2 mk-4 daily.

I usually get 400-500mg vitamin c from diet (fruit, veggies, juice)

I also eat roughly 1g of protein per lb of body weight, though I only target to get 0.8g of protein per lb of lean mass. I just usually end up getting extra inadvertently.

It took forever to go away. The stomach issues (nausea) went away after like 3 weeks, but the odd spacey feeling like I couldn’t focus my attention on anything and just wanted to stare off into space lasted considerably longer, like 3 months or so.

I Don’t know? Maybe I just really didn’t need any because my diet is good, I’m lean, and exercise? Perhaps only a little bit was plenty to cause copper to drop?
What if in your case it coated your intestines? How topical use affects you?
What about molybdenum?

I thought I was the only one having these kind of reactions, so thank you for sharing your experience because it has been helpful in trying to elucidate this issue. The effect on me is quite harsh, but in my case I suspect it induces and resolves faster, not sure.
 
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Jon

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What if in your case it coated your intestines? How topical use affects you?
What about molybdenum?

I thought I was the only one having these kind of reactions, so thank you for sharing your experience because it has been helpful in trying to elucidate this issue. The effect on me is quite harsh, but in my case I suspect it induces and resolves faster, not sure.

Hey no prob homie :) happy to help.

I wouldn’t assume my intake of molybdenum was very high. I never ate beans or lentils so my only source of it would have been eggs and spinach, both of which I don’t think are especially high in molybdenum.
 

Amazoniac

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Hey no prob homie :) happy to help.

I wouldn’t assume my intake of molybdenum was very high. I never ate beans or lentils so my only source of it would have been eggs and spinach, both of which I don’t think are especially high in molybdenum.
But now that I think of it the dose was modest.

Vit K adsorption can be compromised even during normal digestion:
- What Are Your Best Fat Soluble Vitamins Combinations From Personal Experience?

If I'm not wrong it can also get in the way of carotene uptake. And if you were using vit K on skin, I guess it can still be detrimental if not much is able to reach the liver.

But the coating seems a likely possibility to consider. How it affects you when applied on skin?
 

Jon

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But now that I think of it the dose was modest.

Vit K adsorption can be compromised even during normal digestion:
- What Are Your Best Fat Soluble Vitamins Combinations From Personal Experience?

If I'm not wrong it can also get in the way of carotene uptake. And if you were using vit K on skin, I guess it can still be detrimental if not much is able to reach the liver.

But the coating seems a likely possibility to consider. How it affects you when applied on skin?

I wasnt using vit k on skin. I take all my supps orally, and have been using Carlson’s mk-4 (but they recently discontinued it :arghh:)

Ive never tried E on skin nor vitamin K2.
 

Antonello

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The amount I took varied depending on how much PUFA I ate from day to day. I can’t remember now how I figured it out but it was something like for every 1g of PUFA ingested you need like 2mg of vit E?

I think that usually worked out to like 10-20mg a day taken orally for me (hardly anything at all).

For choline I mostly get mine from eggs (3-4 a day) along with leafy greens, and once I awhile some liver.

I usually get about 1mg if K1 from cooked spinach and supplement 5mg K2 mk-4 daily.

I usually get 400-500mg vitamin c from diet (fruit, veggies, juice)

I also eat roughly 1g of protein per lb of body weight, though I only target to get 0.8g of protein per lb of lean mass. I just usually end up getting extra inadvertently.

It took forever to go away. The stomach issues (nausea) went away after like 3 weeks, but the odd spacey feeling like I couldn’t focus my attention on anything and just wanted to stare off into space lasted considerably longer, like 3 months or so.

I Don’t know? Maybe I just really didn’t need any because my diet is good, I’m lean, and exercise? Perhaps only a little bit was plenty to cause copper to drop?
Don't you drink milk Jon?
 

CLASH

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@haidut
I have a pure DHEA powder and a pure pregnenolone powder that I want to create a topical supplement with, would it be feasible to use your tocovit as a base? If so, how should I heat it up without destroying the supp or leaching plastic so I can mix the two?

I have been using progesterone in vit E with great success so I’d like to optimize a combination of the three hormones. I tried stressnon but I have gotten some uncomfortable side effects from it that I didnt get from oral pregnenolone powder. Due to this I’m thinking it may be one of the solvents so I’d like to try it in vit E, especislly considering my success with the progesterone in E. I have already been using tocovit for a few years without issue so I thought it’d be a good base. I wanted to use it for the DHEA as a solo supplement so I can tease out the individual effects of the DHEA and the Preg. I’m going to use pansterone with MCT and tocopherol to see the combined effect.
 
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haidut

haidut

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@haidut
I have a pure DHEA powder and a pure pregnenolone powder that I want to create a topical supplement with, would it be feasible to use your tocovit as a base? If so, how should I heat it up without destroying the supp or leaching plastic so I can mix the two?

I have been using progesterone in vit E with great success so I’d like to optimize a combination of the three hormones. I tried stressnon but I have gotten some uncomfortable side effects from it that I didnt get from oral pregnenolone powder. Due to this I’m thinking it may be one of the solvents so I’d like to try it in vit E, especislly considering my success with the progesterone in E. I have already been using tocovit for a few years without issue so I thought it’d be a good base. I wanted to use it for the DHEA as a solo supplement so I can tease out the individual effects of the DHEA and the Preg. I’m going to use pansterone with MCT and tocopherol to see the combined effect.

You would have to pour some of the vitamin E from the plastic bottle into a container that is hear resistant. Then, after dissolving the steroids you have to wait until it cools off and then pour back. But it should work, I have used TocoVit as a base for CortiNon before so I don't see why it won't work for your experiment as well.
 

CLASH

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Thanks for your response haidut. I’ll keep you posted on the experimentation.
 

Beastmode

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Has anyone noticed a significant difference in the original Tocovit to the current one? (FYI we used the original one and enjoyed the effects)

Looking to try the new one.
 

Judd Crane

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Depends on occasion and conditions. If I am not around food then I take then topically. Same goes for scars, burns, mosquito bites, etc. If I have eaten in the last hour sometimes I take orally.
Do you think scar tissue will allow for as efficient absorption to the blood as regular skin?
 

Amazoniac

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@Jon

:wave:

The combination of white rice cooked with turmeric and topped with celery stalks should help to prevent problems with the unadsorbed fraction of antidote E throughout the intestines. Do you consume these? Because if so, it's worth considering adding the antidote to such meal.

Refined rice still provides some nutrients that tend to accumulate in grains. The other two ingredients are for protection.

Celery has interesting properties, there is experiments using seeds, but others using the other parts. The stalks are quite resistant to spoilage.

- Nutraceutical Potential of Apiaceae

"Celery has different forms and uses. Turnip-rooted celery, also called celeriac, is used mainly as grated raw salad, as well as cooked vegetable in stews and soups. Leaf celery, called smallage, is chopped and used for garnishing and flavoring, either fresh or dried. The succulent leafstalk, often with a part of leafblade, is used for the preparation of sauces, vegetable juices, stews, soups, salads, etc. Celery seed is used as condiment, in pickling vegetables, salad dressings, breads, biscuits, soups, spice mixed with salt, as bouquet garnish [2]. In traditional medicine, celery is used to treat many diseases. Traditionaly, celery is mainly used as a diuretic and as a treatment for arthritis and rheumatism. Celery also has sedating effect and has been used in herbal medicine to treat nervousness, hysteria and various other conditions [131, 132]. However, investigations show that celery possesses good antioxidant activity [133, 134, 135] as well as antimicrobial activity [136, 137]. Significant hepatoprotective activity [138, 139, 140, 141, 142], and anti-inflammatory effect of celery are reported [143, 144]. Hypoglycemic effect of celery is also reported, as well as that its potent role in ameliorating stressful complications accompanied by diabetes mellitus [145, 146]. Celery acts as an intestinal smooth muscle relaxant in the digestive tract [147]. Also, it has antihypertensive properties, and can be considered as an antihypertensive agent in chronic treatment of elevated blood pressure [148]. Celery showed a significant diuretic effect that accentuates the excretion of urinary calcium [149]."​

- A Review of the Antioxidant Activityof Celery (Apium graveolens L)
- Antioxidant activity of celery in vitro and vivo
 

jaakkima

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What could be any possible ways of making topical Tocovit more systemically effective, if one cannot take it orally? I might be dealing with potentially impractical amounts given my use/reason for it.
I thought maybe adamantane (?), but weird things have happened to me when I've taken that, so I'm hesitant to use it for now.
@haidut
 
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haidut

haidut

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What could be any possible ways of making topical Tocovit more systemically effective, if one cannot take it orally? I might be dealing with potentially impractical amounts given my use/reason for it.
I thought maybe adamantane (?), but weird things have happened to me when I've taken that, so I'm hesitant to use it for now.
@haidut

Topical use often makes the effects more systemic as it avoids the liver. Less is absorbed but it has a much longer half life compared to oral.
 

jaakkima

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Topical use often makes the effects more systemic as it avoids the liver. Less is absorbed but it has a much longer half life compared to oral.

:thumbsup:
I'm noticing very profound effects from it topically all of the sudden, whereas it hadn't had noticeable effects for a long time when I'd tried. I had to cut out many things that it turned out were irritating my gut, make sure not to be taking too much T4, use more of some things, like mainly cascara, and work on gut bacteria (I think the bacillus products are what are helping the most)... And poof, the topical E feels like it's doing a lot of good now.
 
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BRMarshall

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Thanks to Haidut for putting together this wheat germ based vitamin E product. In his his initial post, Haidut references Ray Peat's experiments with vitamin E that his
Phd. thesis advisor had, to which it would really be interesting if such experiments could be reproduced, potentially with Haidut's E.

To quote that first post~

"Ray has written about the shocking difference between the modern vitamin E found in stores and the one his advisor used in the early 20th century.

Is it OK to only have vitamin E succinate
"...My thesis adviser, Arnold Soderwall, did some studies showing that vitamin E extended fertility considerably. I found some of his old Sigma (chemical company) vitamin E still in the freezer, and I was working on the idea that oxidative catalysts in the liver were directly related to estrogen's effects. I would extract lipids from the liver, and use paper chromatography to separate them, and for reference points I used the vitamin E and different quinones (coenzyme Q10, Q6, and benzoquinone). I happened to mix the vitamin E with one of the quinones, and noticed that it turned almost black; all of the quinones had the same effect. Putting the mixture on the paper, the moving solvent separated the original components. Delocalized electrons absorb low energy light, causing a dark color (as in black semiconductors), and Szent-Gyorgyi had expressed wonder about what could cause the dark color of the healthy liver, a color that can't be extracted as a pigment. This experiment convinced me that vitamin E could be one of the participants in delocalizing electrons for activating proteins in the way S-G suggested. However, the technology for manufacturing vitamin E has changed greatly over the years, and I have never found anything sold as vitamin E that produces the same dark colors as that old stuff from the freezer. I don't know whether the powerfully therapeutic (anti-estrogenic, clot-clearing, anti-inflammatory, quinone-reactive) old vitamin E contained "impurities" that were effective, or whether it's that the newer materials contain impurities that reduce their effects. It was labeled d-alphatocopherol, but it was semi-solid, like crystallized honey." "


So has anyone tried mixing various E's, Haidut's included, with various quinones to see if the mixture turns black?

@haidut
 

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