Tips On How To Work With A Conventional Dr. Without Conflict?

[danielbb]

There ought to be some middle, common ground here. My doctor is very conscientious and never looks at his watch while I am with him and he is more than willing to talk about my concerns about prescription drugs and other issues brought up in this thread. I can e-mail him any time I like and get a response in a reasonable amount of time. I have heart disease and obviously very concerned about that. If I have interpreted him correctly, Ray Peat says higher blood pressure is not that big of deal. Even the Linus Pauling Vitamin C guys explain that the reason heart arteries are susceptible to arteriosclerosis and not other vessels such as in the legs and arms is related to pressure. My doctor wants my blood pressure down and he wants me on at least a low dose statin because he said they also have anti-inflammatory properties. I verified his claim and found there are many studies out there that say as much. I told him about some of the side effects I was having and he agreed to work with me on the side-effect problem. We lowered the dose on the statin and we changed the blood pressure meds which were also a fairly low dose. My blood pressure has also been reduced by losing weight and along with regular, non-stressful exercise. I know Ray doesn't hold statins in a high regard but I feel I have to split the baby on this issue due to the seriousness of my disease. I am also on low dose aspirin therapy (81 mg) and both my doctor and Ray would agree on that.

I looked at the Pauling therapy of high dose vitamin C plus several grams of lysine/proline per day. If you eat Ray's recommended amounts of protein per day, the lysine/proline part of the equation is easily met. Six grams of ascorbic acid or what not per day seems ridiculous to me. I think people need to ask themselves, "What is making us sick in the first place?" - where such therapies like Vitamin C/certain amino acids or statin/blood pressure meds would even be necessary in the first place?

I am taking a comprehensive and hopefully exhaustive approach to this disease and hopefully others. For starters, first do no harm - NO PUFA, NO PROCESSED FOOD, limited starch, limited legumes, trying to eliminate all internal and external estrogen sources as much as possible, no high fructose corn syrup, no carageenan, and so forth. Regular exercise including walking and concentric weight lifting. Regarding Pauling, I get the recommended amounts of lysine and proline per day from protein sources such as 1% milk, gelatin, and red meat. I've read that even if you take 6 grams of vitamin C such as from ascorbic acid, that much of it will be excreted in the urine and from my experience this seems to be true. I've upped my OJ to 4 glasses per day and along with other fruit, get about 600 mg of natural vitamin C per day - in my mind that ought to be more than enough vitamin C. Based on advice from my doctor, I've also agreed to low dose statin therapy and low dose blood pressure medication along with low dose aspirin therapy.

I don't think we ought to be bashing the medical profession. Nothing is perfect - including you, me, the medical profession, and Ray Peat. I am very lucky to have my doctor as he's willing to discuss all of my concerns. My advice about those with low opinions, go doctor-shopping until you find one like I have. They exist and in my humble opinion, do very good work. I am thankful for them because on more than one occasion, they have saved my life.

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

All medical workers on the front lines so to speak are feeling the heat right now. The climate has changed dramatically in the last twenty years. Gone are the days where doctors enjoyed carte blanche respect and elevated status. People in general are more knowledgeable about health and demand more information. They are taking more responsibility for their own and their families health and looking for a team approach. These are all good things but I think many health care workers need to learn give a level of customer service they were never taught in school. Doctors are taught to be authoritarian because in the medical world they need to be an authority.
We have a very broken system and it’s difficult for people to be respectful in a system that’s let them down and failed them -often repeatedly.
I think both the workers and the patients feel frustrated right now and all we can do is try to relate to one another respectfully while advocating for what is the best care possible.

As a Pharm.D I have to thank you for this message and the other one above. The more aggressive messages are quite ridiculous and severely lack intelligence and/or empathy.

For every patient that wants extremely personalized treatment (and rightfully so!) there are thousands if not millions of braindead persons who do NOT want to be held accountable for their disease and just want their "magic" pill and that's it. Will be ready to sue a Doctor if "malpractice" (read: non conventional medicine that isn't strictly following guidelines) goes wrong. Doctors cover their asses because that's who they deal with. Paranoia is right at the center of the psychology of the modern medical professional.

 

[danielbb]

As a Pharm.D I have to thank you for this message and the other one above. The more aggressive messages are quite ridiculous and severely lack intelligence and/or empathy.

For every patient that wants extremely personalized treatment (and rightfully so!) there are thousands if not millions of braindead persons who do NOT want to be held accountable for their disease and just want their "magic" pill and that's it. Will be ready to sue a Doctor if "malpractice" (read: non conventional medicine that isn't strictly following guidelines) goes wrong. Doctors cover their asses because that's who they deal with. Paranoia is right at the center of the psychology of the modern medical professional.

My daughter is also a pharmacist as well and obviously, I hold her in high esteem.

Totally agree with you. We all need to be accountable. Working with highly-trained doctors and pharmacists is part of the accounting in my opinion. Looking for the magic pill will not work. We need to ask the fundamental question - what is making us sick in the first place? I've come to the conclusion that I made myself sick by not eating properly and not working out like I should have. I am now interacting with others here that are also concerned about their health (as they should), considering the advice of the great Ray Peat, and listening to those who I respect in the medical profession. We all need to be accountable indeed.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

As a Pharm.D I have to thank you for this message and the other one above. The more aggressive messages are quite ridiculous and severely lack intelligence and/or empathy.

For every patient that wants extremely personalized treatment (and rightfully so!) there are thousands if not millions of braindead persons who do NOT want to be held accountable for their disease and just want their "magic" pill and that's it. Will be ready to sue a Doctor if "malpractice" (read: non conventional medicine that isn't strictly following guidelines) goes wrong. Doctors cover their asses because that's who they deal with. Paranoia is right at the center of the psychology of the modern medical professional.

Maybe. But it also seems like doctors are actively preventing cures from getting out or being used. Andrew K Fletcher has show the efficacy of his Incline Bed Therapy enough to justify at least research and the doctors, once they realize what it would do to their income, won't cooperate with any studies.

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

Maybe. But it also seems like doctors are actively preventing cures from getting out or being used. Andrew K Fletcher has show the efficacy of his Incline Bed Therapy enough to justify at least research and the doctors, once they realize what it would do to their income, won't cooperate with any studies.

Thankfully there are doctors who realize that what they do is NOT sustainable ie. will get their patients off all medication (=TREAT them) but still speak out loud. Few and far between, but it's whatever - I always see the half full cup, even if it's a drop in the ocean of health authorities' politics.


Dr. Gordon goes on around 17:00 in


Dr. McDougall reflects on the topic at hand from 0:46 to 3:00 approximately

 

[burtlancast]

. Doctors are taught to be authoritarian because in the medical world they need to be an authority.

If you think deep about it, there's really no reason for a doctor to ever be an authoritarian.

The ones inclined to it often act out of personal gain- power trip and sense of importance.

And that's exactly the type of personality medical schools pander to.

 

[Blossom]

If you think deep about it, there's really no reason for a doctor to ever be an authoritarian.

The ones inclined to it often act out of personal gain- power trip and sense of importance.

And that's exactly the type of personality medical schools pander to.

I think a lot of it has to do with how much of our current system has been modeled on and influenced by wartime medicine. People don’t seem to easily switch from emergency situations where there needs to be clearly defined roles to act quickly and efficiently to more routine non critical situations. We tend to stay in triage mode at all times and fail to slow down and really listen and show concern and care when we can. I think many people are willing to do better, not all of course but there are some.

 

[Tarmander]

Sadly you are at war and your doctor is the enemy.
you are dealing with people who are the clergy of their religion
and the depth of ignorance they possess regarding what they think they know vs what they actually
know is beyond mindboggling.
Doubly sadly he/she is the gatekeeper to the services you desire.
Its is critical that at no point you think the doctors have your child's best interest at heart.
The relationship is not adversarial because of you the relationship is adversarial because its war.
I've had many opportunities to advocate for friends and family and as much as I'd like to tell
you its something else... its not.
You simply keep demanding, keep questioning, do not allow yourself to be bullied and fight like hell
to make sure you get what you want for your daughter.
Some people skills can help this to a degree but at the end of the day war is ugly.
Its also important to remember that the doctor is likely completely unaware of this
they are in all likelihood well meaning people with zero malice
but their blindness to their simultaneous ignorance and allegiance to the religion they represent
mandates it be an adversarial engagement. By religion I simply mean if you look up the definition
of what an organized religion is, the practice of modern medicine fits that definition to a T.
From experience... Fight like hell is the only advice I can offer you.

This is a strong statement that cuts right to the quick. I think often Doctor's intention is their defense...they might hurt you...but they were trying to help you!

I wish people would realize it is war. I often wonder why people have these blinders on. "Well...a little bit of violent force is understandable!" ..."He hit me, but I deserved it"

So many of us have been told they are being loved while they are being hit, hurt, shamed....is it any wonder that we tolerate the medical profession like it is?

 

[somuch4food]

We are all being engulfed by society. There is an intangible force created from each of our actions that affects everyone, yet nobody is really responsible for it. It's like we are all part of a big simulation game. Stop blaming medicine, you might argue that it is authoritarian but I think it is necessary for medical school to be hard to complete, you are effectively affecting other people's life everyday. All your actions have a potential effect on another being. That's way more stressful than many jobs. At the end of the day, you are responsible for your own health and are free to seek treatments wherever you want.

I think where we fail as a society is when we rely on medicine to solve all our problems. I am feeling tired lately, maybe I should go see the doctor... I have a cold since 3 days, I will go to the doctor... I was guilty of this too. We want some magic stuff that will make us feel better while we keep going on our unhealthy lifestyle and diet. We have learned to defer our health to authorities, but you are the one person that should know your body best (yet we are disconnected from it, we have not learned to listen to it).

 

[tankasnowgod]

I verified his claim and found there are many studies out there that say as much. I told him about some of the side effects I was having and he agreed to work with me on the side-effect problem. We lowered the dose on the statin and we changed the blood pressure meds which were also a fairly low dose.

Curious.... do you think the anti-inflammatory properties of low dose statins are superior to aspirin or multi gram doses of Vitamin C? After all, Statins are always going to be more expensive than Aspirin and Vitamin C, and statin will carry greater risks in regards to diabetes, Alzheimer's disease, and transient global amnesia.

 

[PowertothePeatple]

I guess to refine my question a bit more what I am asking is this: I am in a situation where I need a conventional Doctor. There is no way around it. But the conventional Doctor wants to diagnose through x-rays, CT scans and MRI's with contrast because his goal is to find out what is going on while limiting his exposure to malpractice or complications. Whereas my goal is to get my daughter diagnosed without causing long term harm or consequences. I am absolutely fine with pursuing all non-toxic options like MRI without contrast and ultrasound but because these are not standard or preferred methods I am frequently rebuffed by Doctors. How do I convince them to collaborate with me? If this was a religious issue I would not get the push back that I do. But in a way this is my belief system; to first cause no additional harm. So how do I get a Doctor to respect that?

 

[somuch4food]

I guess to refine my question a bit more what I am asking is this:

The thread got derailed :)

So how do I get a Doctor to respect that?

I think it will be difficult. Maybe bringing studies or some other materials could help. I understand why doctors would be doubtful of you. I am a web developer and if a client would try to tell me how to work and question how I do things regarding code, I would also show some resistance because I am a professional and how I work has been refined through experience.

 

[Blossom]

We are all being engulfed by society. There is an intangible force created from each of our actions that affects everyone, yet nobody is really responsible for it. It's like we are all part of a big simulation game. Stop blaming medicine, you might argue that it is authoritarian but I think it is necessary for medical school to be hard to complete, you are effectively affecting other people's life everyday. All your actions have a potential effect on another being. That's way more stressful than many jobs. At the end of the day, you are responsible for your own health and are free to seek treatments wherever you want.

I think where we fail as a society is when we rely on medicine to solve all our problems. I am feeling tired lately, maybe I should go see the doctor... I have a cold since 3 days, I will go to the doctor... I was guilty of this too. We want some magic stuff that will make us feel better while we keep going on our unhealthy lifestyle and diet. We have learned to defer our health to authorities, but you are the one person that should know your body best (yet we are disconnected from it, we have not learned to listen to it).

There’s a lot of wisdom in your post. In the world I grew up in we were indoctrinated to believe medicine could fix anything and everything which is far, far from the truth. Lots of people have unrealistic yet completely understandable expectations.

On a person to person level though it’s rarely the individual worker or patient (I hate that word btw) that’s to blame. I always try to treat the people I’m interacting with (regardless of if it’s the doctor, the janitor or the patient) like I’d want myself or my family to be treated. It’s the best way I’ve found to get through the day. It also seems like the only way to help try to break the cycle of stress, fear and negativity that permeates much medicine. People who are in the role of patient are usually scared for their lives and future and doctors are often scared of the same exact same thing just for different reasons.

The system is largely failing us all and although I’m not sure how we can or if we can fix it realizing we are truly in this together might give us some momentum towards creating something better.
In the meantime I’m trying my best to avoid needing any medical interventions.

 

[jitsmonkey]

I guess to refine my question a bit more what I am asking is this: I am in a situation where I need a conventional Doctor. There is no way around it. But the conventional Doctor wants to diagnose through x-rays, CT scans and MRI's with contrast because his goal is to find out what is going on while limiting his exposure to malpractice or complications. Whereas my goal is to get my daughter diagnosed without causing long term harm or consequences. I am absolutely fine with pursuing all non-toxic options like MRI without contrast and ultrasound but because these are not standard or preferred methods I am frequently rebuffed by Doctors. How do I convince them to collaborate with me? If this was a religious issue I would not get the push back that I do. But in a way this is my belief system; to first cause no additional harm. So how do I get a Doctor to respect that?

The objective is to get what you want not get respect.
The reason you're not getting what you want is your objective is the wrong one.
The objective is to get the doctor in your employ to do what you want.
By all means necessary is the answer to "How?"

For some people who are skilled in the art of conversation and manipulation its that
For some who are more skilled in the art of bullying its that
For some who are more skilled in negotiation its that
By. All. Means. Necessary.

And for the jokers who've posted that my position is too harsh
you clearly have not spent much time in a hospital fighting for a life.
If a doctor is too "paranoid" to deliver proper care without an agenda they should find new work. Or at the very least be more transparent about the fact that they don't work for the patient and their decisions are influenced by things other than the best interest of the patient.
By concealing their unspoken agenda and divergent interests that automatically makes them a hostile enemy.
Honesty, Transparency and Forthrightness are required for one entrusted with the responsibility of delivering medical care and I've yet to meet EVEN ONE physician capable of such behavior either in personal, professional nor an inter-professional context. Heck I've yet to meet one even SELF-AWARE of the fact that these things render them incompetent and impotent as practitioners.

this nonsensical, anti-reality advice of respect, meeting in the middle, etc... is how people get killed daily.

and for the record
I have been to physicians personally
and not had occasion to be rude or nasty or disrespectful
I simply make it clear when necessary who's in charge, who's responsible
and what is in fact going to happen.
But I only get what I want / need because
walking in the door I'm aware that I'm in a hostile environment
and if need be I will go to war in that environment.

"Grandma what big eyes you have"

 

[Blossom]

You certainly make some excellent points @jitsmonkey.
I do think making it team work when possible rather than war has it’s advantages but if war is your only option then I get it. Ultimately we have to have the best outcome as our goal not someone’s feelings.

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

And for the jokers who've posted that my position is too harsh
you clearly have not spent much time in a hospital fighting for a life.

Assuming your life is so much tougher than someone else is always a joke. I have seen death more than once, as an intern when I was a university student having to deal with the families, and later on twice as a "guest". You have all the rights to be angry but who does seriously believe Doctors can do what they want just because this is the West and there is unlimited time and money flowing in for cutting-edge care. In one of those cases the spinal cord surgeon told my ex-GF that she had a pretty high chance of not being able to walk again, and her father was furious. What the hell are people expecting. Miracles?

But we're derailing again.

If a doctor is too "paranoid" to deliver proper care without an agenda they should find new work. Or at the very least be more transparent about the fact that they don't work for the patient and their decisions are influenced by things other than the best interest of the patient.

I could agree with that in a perfect world. And then the Doc loses the licence because they've been honest too many times and one day a patient or a next of kin gets mad and sues them for big bucks. No wonders most of the healthcare professionals are depressed. Even worse if they got into this career because they were after the big paycheck. Doctors know all too well how this is all a massive joke.

If you don't have the psychology/empathy/smart skills required to get them to sit back, open the mind up and build a trustful relationship then you have the option to remain angry. Typically human beings don't really trust strangers 100%, and there are ways around this.

 

[jitsmonkey]

You certainly make some excellent points @jitsmonkey.
I do think making it team work when possible rather than war has it’s advantages but if war is your only option then I get it. Ultimately we have to have the best outcome as our goal not someone’s feelings.

One of the reasons I cited John Q. as a movie to watch was the MINDSET needed.
I'm not suggesting you breakdown the door guns a blazin'
but to walk into a doctors office or hospital with anything other than the awareness that
the territory is hostile and that you are at war is incredibly dangerous beyond description.
To expect trust and respect from a scoundrel and when you get it believe it to be genuine is
exactly how things go wrong. I deplore unnecessary violence and avoid it at every turn.
However when push comes to shove and violence (in this case figuratively speaking) is the only option
then that is the ONLY way to get a safe, effective, desirable outcome.
My personal and professional experience suggests that the level of behavioral and psychological dysfunction in medicine
makes it impossible to safely approach it in any other way. I'm all for team work when the team members
can be trusted. But that's a very very dangerous game to play when not one of the team members has demonstrated
even a shred of competence in that department. And I haven't even mentioned the colossal clinical incompetence
bred into every physician for the last half century. Its a war zone. Act accordingly.

I think the real gap between "teamwork" and "war" is that
as patients and consumers we fail to come even close to grasping
how disconnected, out of touch, dysfunctional, incompetent physicians are
when it comes to research, drug mechanisms, metabolic energetics and
delivering nuanced medical care... and at the end of the day
its ALL nuanced care.
I suppose the worst part is the monumental lack of self awareness physicians have when
it comes to these shortcomings.

If you were an Orthodox dyed in the wool Jew you would not go to a Muslim for information about God
If you were a Devout Christian you would not seek counsel on Christ from a Satanist
We are Humans seeking counsel on health and at our worst and most needy moments we consult people who know nothing about it
Modern Medicine is the largest practiced religion on planet earth
Physicians are the clergy
When you seek the care of a physician you are submitting to his/her religious doctrines as taught by his/her church (modern medicine)
People inside the religion will deny this is the case but looks like a duck, acts like a duck, smells like a duck, It. Is. A. Duck.

I'm not suggesting not to seek modern medical help, it very well could save your life.
However seeking it without the full and open awareness that your doctor and his/her church have a COMPLETELY
different agenda than you do is a recipe for disaster.

If I seek a Jews religious counsel I understand who and what I'm consulting and that factors into how I use the feedback
If I seek a Christian or Muslim's religious counsel I have the same disclosed understanding
If I seek a Democrat or Republican's political counsel I have the same disclosed understanding

Bias and Doctrine dictate how people come to their conclusions
To engage with clergy from the modern church of medicine and NOT acknowledge the
dangers and threats their biases and doctrines pose in OPPOSITION to your personal health objectives is simply naive if not outright idiotic

 

[Logan-]

Q. I was wondering, is there any ailment, other than broken bones or something, that you would consider going into hospital for?

Ray Peat said:
I don’t think I would for a broken bone, unless it happened in Romania or some other less medicalized country, but I don’t suggest that other people should be so cautious.


Q. Interesting, would you do in the case of a broken bone? What symptoms do you think it would be reasonable for somebody to visit the hospital?

Ray Peat said:
1982 I slipped on ice while carrying a heavy machine, and sat down on my ankle, causing a sharp pain in the lower half of my fibula; the area was swollen, with a discolored area along the bone, and for a few weeks I couldn’t put my weight on it. Nothing was displaced noticeably, so there was nothing to do but let it heal. I had known people with broken bones that had been badly set by doctors, and others whose bones had been perfectly set by farmers, so I would have had a friend help if I couldn’t reset a major fracture by myself. If a person doesn’t understand what’s happening to them, and thinks it’s something that a hospital could help, they should go, but they should also have a reasonable amount of knowledge about their body, and about the dangers of hospitalization. A couple of years ago I was involved, by telephone, with someone who suddenly developed extreme weakness and bleeding in his lungs, and whose doctor quickly did a series of appropriate tests and used appropriate treatments, and brought him back from a comatose state in a few days. It was the sort of thing that Dr. House might have done, the intelligent application of a large amount of knowledge. Such things are possible, but after having seen hundreds of people ruined by medical ignorance, I was surprised to see that it could actually happen.

 

[Dolomite]

My family was lucky not to have to deal with doctors too often but several times when they did doctors definitely did not listen. A sibling as a child had a tick bite that transmitted tulerimia. During the high fever and an extended hospitalization the doctors were sure it was tuberculosis. My parents did research and wanted them to consider Francisella tularensis as the cause but the doctors were sure they knew better. I was not at home at the time but I know antibiotics were not administered until after there had been days of fever.

My mother had recorded in her chart that she was not to be prescribed or given drugs including opioids. But her doctor prescribed fentanyl patches. This started a chain of events that was devastating for my parents. Her blood pressure went through the roof. Then she was given metoprolol which put her in the observed adverse reaction of a vegetative catatonic state. After that we were on the alert. It is up to the patient to control the situation.

Later, the day of cataract surgery for my mother, the local anesthesia included fentanyl and when we objected due to the opioid content the nurses were confused even though it was in her chart that she should not receive opioids.

I know there are honest caring doctors and in the past I have encountered a few. But doctors are gatekeepers to strong prescription drugs that they don’t even understand.

 

[Tarmander]

this nonsensical, anti-reality advice of respect, meeting in the middle, etc... is how people get killed daily.

Loving your posts. Very accurate mindset in approaching this.

Meeting in the middle often means your loved one dies.