The Big Misunderstanding About PUFA Depletion

[Such_Saturation]

I think Michael Phelps keeps in ketosis, I guess there's no other way he could fit 10.000 calories inside of him.

Why do you have to be in ketosis to eat that much?

So you can just chug coconut oil one shot = 300kcal

Quite informative -_-

If you could say exactly what information I failed to provide, we could try to amend.

 

[dd99]

So, here is a recipe for obesity in middle age - be a pro-level athlete in your younger years.

Does that by extension mean that my being a mid-level athlete in my younger years is to blame for my jiggly gut? I have a new excuse!

 

[4peatssake]

So, here is a recipe for obesity in middle age - be a pro-level athlete in your younger years.

Does that by extension mean that my being a mid-level athlete in my younger years is to blame for my jiggly gut? I have a new excuse!

Does curling count?

 

[Onehumin]

What are we to think when we see examples of people living well past 100 and their diet was violating all these rules of PUFA. maybe its a joke and PUFA is just a Mexican soccer federation.

 

[Blinkyrocket]

I think Michael Phelps keeps in ketosis, I guess there's no other way he could fit 10.000 calories inside of him.

Why do you have to be in ketosis to eat that much?

So you can just chug coconut oil one shot = 300kcal

Quite informative -_-

If you could say exactly what information I failed to provide, we could try to amend.

What about ketosis is necessary for ingesting a lot of food?

 

[Such_Saturation]

What about ketosis is necessary for ingesting a lot of food?

Well perhaps it is more wasteful than a normal condition in terms of ATP per calorie. We could check, but my point is, eating 10.000kcal in carbs would be quite hard, and gram for gram fats give you twice the calories. And if you are going to eat 10.000kcal in fat I strongly recommend you do it in ketosis and it would probably induce it anyway.

 

[Blinkyrocket]

What about ketosis is necessary for ingesting a lot of food?

Well perhaps it is more wasteful than a normal condition in terms of ATP per calorie. We could check, but my point is, eating 10.000kcal in carbs would be quite hard, and gram for gram fats give you twice the calories. And if you are going to eat 10.000kcal in fat I strongly recommend you do it in ketosis and it would probably induce it anyway.

I guess I never spent much time learning about ketosis, which is a good thing because any low carb stuff didn't take hold. But I guess I have a new topic to research now, ketosis. Michael phelps is an inspiration seen as he was skinny as crap and is now buff. However idk how well I would do eating all that fat.

 

[Such_Saturation]

It could go well, like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkjx1NZ4NM8

Or like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PVe6Bt9iag

 

[Westside PUFAs]

So do you think that the small amounts of pufa you get in animal tissue and fruits and vegetables (even OJ) are ideal?
Maybe the question of whether they are 'essential' or not is missing the point. Carbohydrates aren't essential either, but throughout our evolution they've constituted a large percentage of our calorie intake.

It's not about it being ideal or not, it's simply that you can't stop the natural onslaught even if you don't eat cooking oil, which most people do not completely avoid due to social pressure anyway. So combined with the natural avoidance accumulation and the occasional social PUFA, it's going to be a factor.

The "carbohydrates aren't essential" thing is very weird. Hypothyroidism ensues when carb intake goes too low. Ask Ben Greenfield who is a high fat eater, even he stated that he had to eat carbs again because he became hypothyroid. Also, we do not make our own vitamin C, thus get it from fruit. We have carb digesting enzymes. We have sweet receptors on our tongue. Yes, you can survive on pure meat but eventually you will not thrive.

Westside PUFA, I think you miss a crucial point here: PUFA depletion is a cycle.

I don't think the point here is to reach "zero" with PUFA. It's not possible. We want to reach "zero" for neutralization.

It's all about stability through constancy.

I know. That's what my post was about. There are many people who do think it's possible or who attempt it so I'm showing here that their efforts are futile.

Exactly.. It's not about zero PUFA diet. It's about avoiding things like grilled chicken with fries fried in sunflower oil. Where is maybe 100g+ of PUFA in one meal.. I think under 10g a day is ok and under 5g a day is optimal..

Well not exactly. The one meal thing. One big load from one meal or small amounts overtime, it's still accumulating. It's just that if you have those big meal loads often then you'll then have more in your tissue than someone who truly is strict about keeping them overtly low.

I thought Andrew Kim had disputed the half-life of PUFA and shown(with studies) that you can get rid of it faster than Ray Peat predicted?

http://www.andrewkimblog.com/2013/02/dr ... fe-of.html

I posted this in the Ray Peat section, not the "I think I know everything because I paid for a piece of paper and I'm like 25 years old" section.

Their diet consists of algae that have mostly saturated fat, as is the case with many plants from tropical areas of the world.

I didn't know algae was saturated. I searched for "algae saturated fat" and didn't find much.

From the link you posted:

"Blue-green and red algae, diatoms, larval and adult forms of small insects, crustaceans, molluscs, and small fishes make up the main diet of flamingos."

Even tropical fish have a decent amount of PUFA.

"A flamingo's pink or reddish feather, leg, and facial coloration comes from a diet high in alpha and beta carotenoid pigments, including canthaxanthin. The richest sources of carotenoids are found in the algae and various insects that make up the staples of a flamingo's diet."

Carotene is an unsaturated fat.

"Andean miners have killed flamingos for their fat, believed to be a cure for tuberculosis."

Interesting.

I'm not arguing pro-PUFA. I'm just trying to be objective. Is their diet mostly saturated algae or a mix of fats from everything they eat, including PUFA filled fish?

 

[bodacious]

post 93499 This would explain why when I was 20 years old my diet of 1% milk and grape juice, gave me a lean body that never put on excess fat at that time.

post 93499 If the body makes those fats from carbohydrate then pretty much proves that saturated fat is protective.

Interesting post, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think the two quotes highlighted above are both very hasty assumptions though.

As an exercise, I always try to think of other equally valid explanations for an occurrence. This forces me to think of the subject outside of the current schema of thought.

 

[dibble]

Very unscientific post coming right up.....my mother is 72. When she was 8 and very thin, her mother used to force cod liver oil down her neck so she would bulk out. My mother grew a pathological fear of fat of any kind and is nearly sick at the sight of cooking oils, fat on meat etc. Ive never know anyone avoid fat in the same way that she does. Of course, she does get some in her diet, its impossible to avoid. However, she smokes like a trooper, never excercises bar her day to day business and I can honestly say she looks 60 tops.

Ive no doubt its linked to her getting hardly any PUFA compared to other people throughout her life.

 

[EIRE24]

post 108558 Very unscientific post coming right up.....my mother is 72. When she was 8 and very thin, her mother used to force cod liver oil down her neck so she would bulk out. My mother grew a pathological fear of fat of any kind and is nearly sick at the sight of cooking oils, fat on meat etc. Ive never know anyone avoid fat in the same way that she does. Of course, she does get some in her diet, its impossible to avoid. However, she smokes like a trooper, never excercises bar her day to day business and I can honestly say she looks 60 tops.

Ive no doubt its linked to her getting hardly any PUFA compared to other people throughout her life.

So, what does her diet look like then?

 

[dibble]

post 108575

post 108558 Very unscientific post coming right up.....my mother is 72. When she was 8 and very thin, her mother used to force cod liver oil down her neck so she would bulk out. My mother grew a pathological fear of fat of any kind and is nearly sick at the sight of cooking oils, fat on meat etc. Ive never know anyone avoid fat in the same way that she does. Of course, she does get some in her diet, its impossible to avoid. However, she smokes like a trooper, never excercises bar her day to day business and I can honestly say she looks 60 tops.

Ive no doubt its linked to her getting hardly any PUFA compared to other people throughout her life.

So, what does her diet look like then?

Nomral day is oats and fruit for breakfast cheese, egg/cheese and tomato sandwiches (thats the main fat she gets) no spread for lunch or beans on toast (give her a fast heart beat, Ive told her not to eat them :) and then for dinner seafood/chicken breast/beef with steamed/boiled veg/potatoes or rice.

 

[DaveFoster]

This all points to an obvious conclusion. We must engineer food to be entirely free from PUFA at the molecular level using modern biochemistry. It must be done.

 

[Amazoniac]

"Blue-green and red algae, diatoms, larval and adult forms of small insects, crustaceans, molluscs, and small fishes make up the main diet of flamingos."

Even tropical fish have a decent amount of PUFA.

"A flamingo's pink or reddish feather, leg, and facial coloration comes from a diet high in alpha and beta carotenoid pigments, including canthaxanthin. The richest sources of carotenoids are found in the algae and various insects that make up the staples of a flamingo's diet."

Carotene is an unsaturated fat.

"Andean miners have killed flamingos for their fat, believed to be a cure for tuberculosis."

This was a great point, unfortunately the discussion didn't go further..

 

[PakPik]

This was a great point, unfortunately the discussion didn't go further..

Is their diet mostly saturated algae or a mix of fats from everything they eat, including PUFA filled fish?

I haven't researched the proportions of the components of flamingos' diet, but found this interesting:

"Ester fractionation of the fatty acids from the fat of a young adult flamingo (Phoenicopterus chilensis) showed them to consist of oleic 53.4, palmitic 24.8, stearic 7.7, octadecadienoic 7.1, hexadecenoic 4.4 [a MUFA], C20 unsaturated 1.9, hexadecadienoic 0.5 and octadecatrienoic 0.2 per cent." Cookies Required - CAB Direct

It looks they are not too high in PUFA. Mostly MUFA and SAFA

Carotene is an unsaturated fat.

To the best of my Knowledge, Carotenes are not fats. It's just that they have some similarities to PUFAs, that is, PUFAs are also unsaturated hydrocarbons, so they have affinity for similar things and therefore can block thyroid actions and steroid forming enzymes (that's what Peat says).

"The unoxygenated (oxygen free) carotenoids such as α-carotene, β-carotene, and lycopene, are known as carotenes. Carotenes typically contain only carbon and hydrogen (i.e., are hydrocarbons), and are in the subclass of unsaturated hydrocarbons."
"Carotenoids are usually lipophilic due to the presence of long unsaturated aliphatic chains as in some fatty acids." Carotenoid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They are touted as great antioxidants, though, so that may be serving Flamingos well.

 

[Gadsie]

Revisiting this thread. I notice westside pufas always says it's impossible to deplete pufa, and mentions as reason that even butter and coconut oil have pufa. But one can also just not eat coconut oil and butter. I eat ~1.5 grams of pufa a day, on a diet of 3500 calories, so my pufa energy percentage is 0.3. I don't know how much pufa your body uses every day, but if it uses anything more than 1.5 grams, pufa depletion should be possible, as long as youre willing to endure a strict diet of skim milk, rice and fruit that is :). If youre on a diet of 2500 calories, you should even be able to keep your pufa below 1g

 

[EIRE24]

Revisiting this thread. I notice westside pufas always says it's impossible to deplete pufa, and mentions as reason that even butter and coconut oil have pufa. But one can also just not eat coconut oil and butter. I eat ~1.5 grams of pufa a day, on a diet of 3500 calories, so my pufa energy percentage is 0.3. I don't know how much pufa your body uses every day, but if it uses anything more than 1.5 grams, pufa depletion should be possible, as long as youre willing to endure a strict diet of skim milk, rice and fruit that is :). If youre on a diet of 2500 calories, you should even be able to keep your pufa below 1g

Your diet is simply just milk, rice and fruit?

 

[Gadsie]

Your diet is simply just milk, rice and fruit?

Those are the staples yes. But half of my "skim milk" is chocolate milk, I also eat potatoes sometimes. Or I make curry with some coconut milk. But even then I always stay below 2g

 

[EIRE24]

Those are the staples yes. But half of my "skim milk" is chocolate milk, I also eat potatoes sometimes. Or I make curry with some coconut milk. But even then I always stay below 2g

Sounds like a tasty diet mate, glad that it works for you and hope you continue to be healthy!