Scalp Progesterone For Hair Loss Experiment

[xetawaves]

Indeed, magnesium oil overnight is great.

@Progesterone i think I like your nickname.

"Biology of Scalp Hair Growth", Clinics in Plastic Surgery -- Vol. 9, No. 2, 1982:

"Local Therapy {...} Progesterone was found to be a natural and significant 5aR inhibitor when tested in vitro, in the human skin microsome system, a rich source of 5aR, and in human scalp hair follicles. When a solution of progesterone in alcohol was applied to the pubic skin of normal males, it caused an average decrease of 75.2 per cent in 5aR activity after 24 hours of treatment.

"Moreover, while less DHT is made, more dihydroprogesterone (DHP; 5a-pregnane-3,20dione) is made. DHP competes with the residual DHT for the cytosol-nuclear binding protein for a further reduction in the amount of DHT interacting with genetic material.

"Progesterone works in reducing DHT production locally by competing for the active site of 5aR and would need to be present at the active site continuously because of the reversible kinetics. Treatment lapses result in the resumption of DHT production from testosterone.

"Since progesterone only partially inhibits DHT production and since DHP only partially inhibits binding of residual DHT, local progesterone at best can only ameliorate androgenetic alopecia and not arrest it.

"Because more than 70 per cent of topically applied progesterone is metabolized in the skin to weak, nonandrogenic by-products, it can be used in women at the rate of 1 ml of a 2 per cent solution BID, whereas higher doses result in menstrual irregularities."

I tend to think that hair loss is an imbalance between the Androgen receptor (overly expressed) and the Progesterone, Estrogen alpha and Estrogen beta receptors.

I’d say that the most critical pro growth are in that order PR ERb then ERa.

The 5ar reflexion above may make Finasteride a bad idea - good to inhibit DHT local expression, but Progesterone does just that and is pro growth.

@tankasnowgod thank you got making me rethink 5ar inhibitors, but not for the same reasons

SERMs seem to increase progesterone expression.

I’m down to biEstro + RU58841 myself. RU stopped my GF’s hair loss like magic, according to her, but female pattern baldness isn’t that different from us - at least many of them suffer from increased Androgen to progesterone. Progesterone could be tried, she does have some signs of low Prog, unfortunately she’s dead scared of needles and blood testing in females is quite the challenge.

The last alternative I do feel like trying very soon is Nandrolone - I’m experienced with steroids and recovery from the craziest cycles, I don’t want kids for now, my GF is fine with me pinning weekly, nandrolone converts into the super weak DHN instead of DHT and is a progestin and a weak estrogen. No wonders old school bodybuilders had the most luscious hair.

I took progesterone for 6 months via forearms and it didn't do anything for my hair, but I think locally on the scalp might be the trick. I'm buzzing my head in a few weeks and I plan on trying it. My bet is that topical progesterone, e, and k2 alongside daily scalp massages and dermarolling will regrow hair. I might also use a very small topical dose of biestro on the scalp, but I'm hesitant because of sides.

 

[GorillaHead]

I took progesterone for 6 months via forearms and it didn't do anything for my hair, but I think locally on the scalp might be the trick. I'm buzzing my head in a few weeks and I plan on trying it. My bet is that topical progesterone, e, and k2 alongside daily scalp massages and dermarolling will regrow hair. I might also use a very small topical dose of biestro on the scalp, but I'm hesitant because of sides.

Progesterone Cream (Bioidentical) 4oz Pump of 2000mg USP Bio-Identical Progesterone. Paraben-Free, Soy-Free & Non-GMO. May Support PCOS, Menopause, TTC https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EB0AQA4/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_1sq6BbZHM22Y2


Is that source for progestrone fine?^.

Gonna apply very small amount topically and going to get on sulfasalazine for a while probably in 2 weeks.

 

[olive]

Indeed, magnesium oil overnight is great.

@Progesterone i think I like your nickname.

"Biology of Scalp Hair Growth", Clinics in Plastic Surgery -- Vol. 9, No. 2, 1982:

"Local Therapy {...} Progesterone was found to be a natural and significant 5aR inhibitor when tested in vitro, in the human skin microsome system, a rich source of 5aR, and in human scalp hair follicles. When a solution of progesterone in alcohol was applied to the pubic skin of normal males, it caused an average decrease of 75.2 per cent in 5aR activity after 24 hours of treatment.

"Moreover, while less DHT is made, more dihydroprogesterone (DHP; 5a-pregnane-3,20dione) is made. DHP competes with the residual DHT for the cytosol-nuclear binding protein for a further reduction in the amount of DHT interacting with genetic material.

"Progesterone works in reducing DHT production locally by competing for the active site of 5aR and would need to be present at the active site continuously because of the reversible kinetics. Treatment lapses result in the resumption of DHT production from testosterone.

"Since progesterone only partially inhibits DHT production and since DHP only partially inhibits binding of residual DHT, local progesterone at best can only ameliorate androgenetic alopecia and not arrest it.

"Because more than 70 per cent of topically applied progesterone is metabolized in the skin to weak, nonandrogenic by-products, it can be used in women at the rate of 1 ml of a 2 per cent solution BID, whereas higher doses result in menstrual irregularities."

I tend to think that hair loss is an imbalance between the Androgen receptor (overly expressed) and the Progesterone, Estrogen alpha and Estrogen beta receptors.

I’d say that the most critical pro growth are in that order PR ERb then ERa.

The 5ar reflexion above may make Finasteride a bad idea - good to inhibit DHT local expression, but Progesterone does just that and is pro growth.

@tankasnowgod thank you got making me rethink 5ar inhibitors, but not for the same reasons

SERMs seem to increase progesterone expression.

I’m down to biEstro + RU58841 myself. RU stopped my GF’s hair loss like magic, according to her, but female pattern baldness isn’t that different from us - at least many of them suffer from increased Androgen to progesterone. Progesterone could be tried, she does have some signs of low Prog, unfortunately she’s dead scared of needles and blood testing in females is quite the challenge.

The last alternative I do feel like trying very soon is Nandrolone - I’m experienced with steroids and recovery from the craziest cycles, I don’t want kids for now, my GF is fine with me pinning weekly, nandrolone converts into the super weak DHN instead of DHT and is a progestin and a weak estrogen. No wonders old school bodybuilders had the most luscious hair.

Solo nandrolone is the way to go.

I’ve just started topical bi-estro cream on temples. I’ll keep you posted if I get regrowth.

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

I hope you’re also using vitamin K (I got a K1,MK2,MK7 blend) for endothelium/vascular damage?

Definitely keep us posted. Maybe we should create a Nandrolone topic at this rate.

 

[olive]

I hope you’re also using vitamin K (I got a K1,MK2,MK7 blend) for endothelium/vascular damage?

Definitely keep us posted. Maybe we should create a Nandrolone topic at this rate.

Plenty of MK7, which is the kind that prevents vascular damage but also a hefty dose of MK4 for bone remodelling.

Sounds good in theory but I don’t know what new information this forum will hold. It’s worth reading through the nandrolone related /u/mezdez posts on the PedsR subreddit and taeian the talking camel’s posts on Facebook if you haven’t already.

I think for regrowth the key is a combo of topical bi-estro cream with topical T3. I just need to find a source for the latter.

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

I'm actually an active stalker of the Taiean group, and a contributor of the pedsR aha. So yeah no need to push the envelope.

 

[LCohen]

Silly but did anyone try injecting Progesterone to scalp?

How can we inject something to scalp? Intravenous or intramuscular?

 

[GorillaHead]

We know rats that get vitamin d receptor deletes grow no hair. Balding tissue probably has low vitamin D sensitivity. Progrsterone increase vitamin d receptor tissue. Its probably how it works for hair.

Personally i would do 10000 iu of vitamin D3 everyday with progesterone topical.


Anyone have any data on progrsterone tissue levels in balding vs non balding men. I feel like that would be a huge data point that i am surprised i cant find. Also pretty sure finestride was derived from the progesterone molecue. They share similar stuctures

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

I shared reports on the Coimbra thread showing that high dose vitamin D reverses Alopecia FAST. Within a year or so. Very promising stuff, and I've indeed increased the vitamin D supplementation even though my blood levels are over 90 ng/mL - well, that was after a whole summer working by a pool. I guess 10k IU is maintenance dose for the Canadian winter. Goes 100% the way of auto immune attack of the hair follicle.

 

[GorillaHead]

I shared reports on the Coimbra thread showing that high dose vitamin D reverses Alopecia FAST. Within a year or so. Very promising stuff, and I've indeed increased the vitamin D supplementation even though my blood levels are over 90 ng/mL - well, that was after a whole summer working by a pool. I guess 10k IU is maintenance dose for the Canadian winter. Goes 100% the way of auto immune attack of the hair follicle.

Yes i think that works best for people with alopecia areata. Androgenic alopecia is a bit different. Many people take high dose viramin d with no success. Probably relates to the vitamin D sensitivty being low or damaged.

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

both are different indeed, however there are quite a few people thinking that the Androgenic alopecia still has a degree of auto-immunity, basically the hair attacking DHT-bound follicles in a context of inflammation. DHT lovers around here tend to say DHT does nothing wrong and is a mediator of said inflammation, people who go with the androgenic theory are blaming firemen for the fire etc. Welp the firemen may still lead to auto-immunity so... One of the Alopecia areata cases received high doses of vitamin D *and* a gluten-free diet. Anti-inflammatory?

Do populations that experience lower hair loss eat the least inflammatory foods? Tubers, fruits, wild lean whole animals every blue moon, less calories more micronutrients...

I tend to believe that Alopecias could all be pooled together, it could be that there's a degree of sensitivity to the immune response that puts people on a spectrum. What if Androgenic alopecia is nothing but a milder Alopecia areata?

Do we have that many people with MPB/FPB taking 10-20k IU daily with no success, and were they also bumping up vitamin K1+K2 and A?

I'm not saying it could all be as simple as high vitamin D + top notch clean diet, but since there's zero interest from big Pharma to get that solution out, well, it's all worth exploring.

ps - Not that I care about my natural hormonal status, as explained above. I'm familiar with nuking Test and replacing it with another androgen that happens to be piss-weak at the scalp, and my GF has no problem with my way of doing HRT...

 

[GorillaHead]

both are different indeed, however there are quite a few people thinking that the Androgenic alopecia still has a degree of auto-immunity, basically the hair attacking DHT-bound follicles in a context of inflammation. DHT lovers around here tend to say DHT does nothing wrong and is a mediator of said inflammation, people who go with the androgenic theory are blaming firemen for the fire etc. Welp the firemen may still lead to auto-immunity so... One of the Alopecia areata cases received high doses of vitamin D *and* a gluten-free diet. Anti-inflammatory?

Do populations that experience lower hair loss eat the least inflammatory foods? Tubers, fruits, wild lean whole animals every blue moon, less calories more micronutrients...

I tend to believe that Alopecias could all be pooled together, it could be that there's a degree of sensitivity to the immune response that puts people on a spectrum. What if Androgenic alopecia is nothing but a milder Alopecia areata?

Do we have that many people with MPB/FPB taking 10-20k IU daily with no success, and were they also bumping up vitamin K1+K2 and A?

I'm not saying it could all be as simple as high vitamin D + top notch clean diet, but since there's zero interest from big Pharma to get that solution out, well, it's all worth exploring.

ps - Not that I care about my natural hormonal status, as explained above. I'm familiar with nuking Test and replacing it with another androgen that happens to be piss-weak at the scalp, and my GF has no problem with my way of doing HRT...

Def agree with you on this! High vitamin D. Quality magnesium. And some progesterone.

One thing i am especialy interested in is hairloss above the ears which I notice with many many many men even with full heads of hair.

Check this out too, the research this guy pooled together is buy far one of the best things i have read on hair.



Androgenetic Alopecia Comparative Study- Gene Expression Differences

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

Check this out too, the research this guy pooled together is buy far one of the best things i have read on hair.



Androgenetic Alopecia Comparative Study- Gene Expression Differences

good thread

There's one quote where I couldn't agree more in the comments:

It's not about the hormone levels, but the androgen receptors sensitivity, always have been.

and that IMHO strikes the prolactin pathway. I think it's been shown that Prolactin increases sensitivity to androgens and the number of Androgen receptors. Citations needed, can't do research rn. Prolactin is most commonly raised in a context of high estrogens. Dopamine agonists inhibit prolactin. Vitamin D seems to be low when prolactin is high.

>>> be happy in the sun, save hair?

 

[GorillaHead]

good thread

There's one quote where I couldn't agree more in the comments:



and that IMHO strikes the prolactin pathway. I think it's been shown that Prolactin increases sensitivity to androgens and the number of Androgen receptors. Citations needed, can't do research rn. Prolactin is most commonly raised in a context of high estrogens. Dopamine agonists inhibit prolactin. Vitamin D seems to be low when prolactin is high.

>>> be happy in the sun, save hair?

I have noticed dopamine and hair directly related. Even people with androgenic alopecia have noticed good things. Its clear that we shouldnt be calling this androgenic alopecia. Its hormonal alopecia at best with different pathways affecting metabolism.

In some anecdotal evidence i read where people who used to smoke weed often suddenly stopped and started losing hair. Probably related to dopamine

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

Prolactin: The Most Likely Cause of Male Pattern Baldness

Prolactin is likely downstream from the negative effects of serotonin. This article is inaccurate suggesting that prolactin is primarily responsible for male pattern baldness, but still contains useful information.

Meredith Harbour Yetter is an amazing woman. Not only is she a fan of my silly weblog, but she tipped me off to an excellent interview where
my squeeze Dr. Ray Peat did a whole podcast on the topic of hair loss. To say that it was one of the most exciting hours of my life is an
understatement.

To summarize, Peat believes that prolactin, serotonin, estrogen, and cortisol are the main culprits in hair loss. Peat spends most of the
interview talking about prolactin's relation to MPB.

Cortisol <> Prolactin <> Estrogen <> Serotonin

I couldn't help but laugh at the exchange between Peat and the woman co-host as she explained the tired old dihydrotestosterone (DHT) theory of male pattern baldness. Peat corrects her, stating that there is no evidence suggesting that a "sensitivity" to testosterone is behind MPB.

While I believe DHT has a hand in hair loss (if it didn't Propecia would have zero effect), I believe it to be downstream from much more important issues.

Overview:

It appears that prolactin along with other stress hormones are elevated in those who are prematurely balding.

* There is conflicting information on the web, but prolactin may increase the activity of the 5-alpha reductase enzyme.
* Prolactin has been found to modulate hair growth in mice, as well as be a target for human hair follicles.
* Serotonin increases prolactin, which may increase hair loss (here and here).
* Prolactin increaes Interleukin-6, an inflammatory marker that is correlated with hair loss.
* Prolactin inhibits thyroid function (Kharrazian), and low thyroid promotes prolactin, which can both cause hair loss.

What to do about it?

* Zinc seems to decrease prolactin (here and here).
* Dietary tryptophan can increase prolactin levels. However, tryptophan is unavoidable if one is consuming animal products, so
assuring that tryptophan converts into niacin, and not serotonin, is desirable. Obtaining an adequate intake of B6, B2, iron, and Vitamin A can increase the conversion of tryptophan to niacin. Peat suggests that the calcium to phosphate ratio is also important.
* An increase in parathyroid hormone (possible deficiencies of vitamin D, vitamin K, vitamin A, zinc, magnesium or calcium) can cause
an increase in prolactin. Obtaining adequate calcium, as well as the cofactors needed to absorb calcium is probably a smart idea. Sodium and adequate protein may also increase calcium absorption.
* Estrogen increases prolactin secreation. This is a topic for another post, but you can maintain a healthy estrogen level by providing the liver with enough sugar and avoiding dietary polyunsaturated fats.
* Alcohol consumption can increase prolactin.
* Salt restriction increases serotonin, which can increase prolactin.

SOURCE: http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2011...st-likely-cause-of-male-pattern-baldness.html

It's all from Peat, and it's not bad to have a bit of a refresher.

I have noticed dopamine and hair directly related. Even people with androgenic alopecia have noticed good things. Its clear that we shouldnt be calling this androgenic alopecia. Its hormonal alopecia at best

Probable. Sex hormones are so far downstream from cholesterol anyway, it's true that we should all zoom out and look for a bigger picture.

 

[GorillaHead]

It's all from Peat, and it's not bad to have a bit of a refresher.



Probable. Sex hormones are so far downstream from cholesterol anyway, it's true that we should all zoom out and look for a bigger picture.

Going back to the prolactin. Interestingly enough women who get pregnant their progesterone levels sky rocket where hair gets thicker. Then drop off after birth and they start losing hair fast back to baseline. Prolactin stays elevated after birth. I wonder..

Also anecdotal reports of peoples hair thickening up on bromocriptine. Dopamine agonist and anti prolactin

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

and

Androgenetic Alopecia Comparative Study- Gene Expression Differences

Their idea that a downregulation of the HMG-coA synthase gene is also very interesting.

But then they go on and say dopamine agonists induce tellogen effluvium

 

[GorillaHead]

and


Their idea that a downregulation of the HMG-coA synthase gene is also very interesting.

But then they go on and say dopamine agonists induce tellogen effluvium

Interesting. tellogen effuvlium typically is a good sign that new hair is going to come in. So i would consider that a good thing. Almost anything that strengthens the anagen phase resets the hair cycle. The intensity varies and probably depends on how much of your hair is in the anagen phase and how powerful things like the dopamine agonists are.


I wish i could find this study but there was a study that showed high prolactin and hypothyroid induced andorgenic alopecia.


I truly beleive areas with hair on the scalp can be saved though hormone modulation. Areas where the hair has regressed tremendously reequires multiple approaches.


We also cant forget that aging stacked on top androgenic alopecia will further potentiate hairloss.

Low dose progesterone= protects hair
Lower prolactin. = increased dopamine and increased hair and maybe downeegulate ar sensitivity? I dont know how long it would take for androgen sensitivty to go down. Receptors can hang around for years.

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

Very good points.

I’m actually replying here as I’m reading (slowly, but it’s technical) their thread over there. Interesting that IGF-1 is yet again singled out as problematic. So much for bodybuilders shooting for mega high IGF-1 levels for.... not much if we compare the modern bald ones to the golden era thick haired guys.

The hedgehog signaling is a very solid way to approach it. I don’t know whether we can increase HMG-coA synthase or cholesterol metabolism in people who have weak genes there (like me, for one). Sounds like a low fat diet maybe, plus topical hormones is the way to go.

Basically what this topic is about

 

[GorillaHead]

Very good points.

I’m actually replying here as I’m reading (slowly, but it’s technical) their thread over there. Interesting that IGF-1 is yet again singled out as problematic. So much for bodybuilders shooting for mega high IGF-1 levels for.... not much if we compare the modern bald ones to the golden era thick haired guys.

The hedgehog signaling is a very solid way to approach it. I don’t know whether we can increase HMG-coA synthase or cholesterol metabolism in people who have weak genes there (like me, for one). Sounds like a low fat diet maybe, plus topical hormones is the way to go.

Basically what this topic is about

True that. Definitely agree here. Men had better hormone profiles 40 years ago then they do Today. A factor that plays to such great hair besides genetics for those old school bodybuilders.

One other thing i wanted to point out. From my understanding when women get androgenic alopecia their androgen levels spike but no where near the level of a mans normal AR levels. Means a women androgen sensitivity is much higher. While men even with androgenic alopecia probably have lower sensitivity compared to women in general.