PUFA Depletion Can (probably) Be Accomplished In 30 Days!

[haidut]

I was trying to compare someone who has allot of body fat (say 200 pounds of fat) vs someone who has relatively little (say 20 pounds). And they both got the same ratio of PUFA on them. I was thinking it would be obvious that it will take the heavier guy longer all else being the same.

The rest of what you say makes sense, but it makes me feel even more so that you cannot really estimate how long it will take to deplete PUFA because there are many individual factors.

Yeah, the person who has less body fat should be able to deplete it quicker because their RMR would be higher (due to more muscle mass) and also muscles being able to oxidize a good portion of it. But "depletion" could also mean displacement by SFA, so eating mostly SFA will change the PUFA/SFA ratio in fat even if there is not much fat loss. That is still beneficial, and can probably happen much more easily than losing the excess fat.

 

[General Orange]

From Haidut:
3) Perhaps the most important, and depressing finding - even a single high PUFA meal replenished PUFA content in serum, cholesterol and tissues almost up to the levels seen before starting fat-free diets. So, after depleting PUFA make sure to avoid even a single "binge event" of restaurant food unless you are loaded up on vitamin E.

I'm confused.
1. So if you eat low PUFA for 4 years which is how long it takes for your fatty tissue to reflect the dietary changes, and then you go out the next day & eat a high PUFA meal, your fatty tissues immediately return to the PUFA content they had 4 years ago? 4 long years of a disciplined diet, & it's all ruined by 1 meal? If that's the case, then what's the point? Almost everyone is going to eat a bad meal once in a while.

2. Ray says PUFA accumulates with age, and unless you eat an extremely strict diet, there's really no way to prevent it. So again, what's the point of eating low PUFA then?

Yes, it is starting to sound like PUFA-phobia.
Minimizing the damage of low PUFA intake should be the goal, if you ask me.

-still a nice question remains: were the livers of these monkeys tested? is getting a Non-alcoholic fatty liver disease ruled out?
what happens in this study then?
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00021369.1974.10861437
Does this not mean, on a fat-free diet with eating sucrose or glucose after fasted state, you get non-alcoholic fatty liver?

 

[Jem Oz]

Can someone please tell me what exactly you'd be eating on a no fat, solids-based diet?? I can't see how you can avoid it being mostly liquid tbh. It's all very well to say "avoid liquids", but what are you left with? Starch, if you're into it. Fruit, which is mostly water. What else?? Meat and eggs are out. Also, do people realise that a true no fat diet means ZERO fat milk, not just "low fat"? It seems to me that if the idea is to try a no fat/ultra-low fat diet, AND have it be solids-based, you basically have to eat a lot of starch. Unless I'm missing something?

 

[cyclops]

Also, do people realise that a true no fat diet means ZERO fat milk, not just "low fat"?

I think people realize this.

 

[Jem Oz]

I think people realize this.

It's worth asking such a basic question because people aren't always honest with themselves about what they eat. And there's a big difference in taste between low fat and no fat milk (as in: only one of them actually has a taste)

 

[Dr. C]

In 2001 I did a 24 day distilled water fast.

I had to discard my pillow case after because it smelled like latex paint.

Water fasting easily removes polyunsaturates.

I fasted with quite a full PUFA storage. My oxLDL skyrocketed.

 

[saraleah]

Does anyone else have experience with going completely PUFA free or close to it? Have a lot of people seen extreme fat loss with going fat free?

Yes I have ...never had extreme fat to lose but have lived on rice , potatoes, fruit, mushrooms , some greens and sugar for short periods of time and lose weight/cut up quickly. I have been using progest-E daily , niacinamide also, tiny amount of DHEA 2-3X week. Feel great, can lift heavier, no pain, no soreness. Also fasting sugar good, under 100. I have been doing this again recently, because of a flare up of auto immune disease that I think might be related to dairy, don't know need help badly with that. I feel great on it short term but live in New England so cant make it thru a winter this way. Too cold!! I am afraid to add back dairy and not sure what to do, was using raw milk and following Peat diet principles almost a year, when the flare-up hit and I don't know why. Going nearly fat free resolves what docs told me was impossible/incurable very quickly and you do not gain weight on it, lose quick, but I need a long term solution

 

[General Orange]

My question is, How bad is..and how can we minimize... the bad effects of the consequential three day's of Fatty Liver after eating fat again after the 30 day's of going NOFAT? see my #122 post

 

[General Orange]

Found a way to reduce fatty liver after PUFA depletion ! - Pantethine

Pantethine ... takes fat from the liver and the abdomen

"During the supplementation period, according to scans, the amount of fat in the liver decreased, and the amount of belly fat also decreased significantly." - Article translated from dutch

- More info below - source
Excerpt
Pantethine and Arterial Plaque Removal

"What is Pantethine?
Pantethine is the active form of pantothenic acid (better known as vitamin B 5). In the body, pantothenic acid is converted to pantethine. Pantethine supplements (not pantothenic acid) have been shown to significantly reduce:

• Serum triglycerides,
• Total cholesterol, and
• LDL-cholesterol (the so-called “bad cholesterol”) levels
• Increasing HDL (“good cholestrerol”) levels in several clinical trials.

Most studies have been smaller ones but the accumulated number of them becomes impressive. In a 16-week study of 24 menopausal women with high cholesterol, pantethine yielded significant reductions of total cholesterol, LDL, and LDL/HDL ratio. Another study of pantethine in 7 children and 65 adults with high cholesterol and/or high triglycerides showed a significant reduction in total cholesterol, LDL, and triglycerides- as well as a substantial increase in HDL.

In another illustrative clinical trial, researchers examined the effect of oral treatment with pantethine on 20 patients with elevated cholesterol and triglycerides. They found significant decreases of total cholesterol, LDL, and triglycerides, with increased levels of HDL.

Pantethine also has the advantage of being an effective treatment for high cholesterol while avoidingthe undesirable side effectsof synthetic lipid-lowering drugs. In fact, there appear to be no toxicity or side effects from to pantethine, making an attractive and natural treatment alternative. Pantethine has been used for the past 30 years in Japan, where it is approved as a pharmaceutical agent for the purpose of increasing HDL-C, the “good cholesterol” needed by the body to maintain a healthy heart.

Although Pantethine is derived from pantothenic acid, pantethine is not the same as pantothenic acid. It is important to remember that the two substances are not interchangeable. Pantothenic acid has its own benefits – but it is pantethinethat lowers cholesterol and other lipid levels! Research indicates that pantethine supplements are helpful in reducing total cholesterol, LDL cholesterol, and triglyceride levels. At the same time, it raises the good HDL cholesterol in the body.

Pantethine works by inhibiting cholesterol manufacture and accelerating the utilization of fat as an energy source. As the biologically active form of pantothenic acid and the direct precursor to Coenzyme A (CoA), pantethine plays a role in:

• 
  
  
  • the synthesis of fatty acids,
  • the degradation of fatty acids,
  • the Krebs cycle in which most of the body’s energy is produced,
  • the acetylation of choline-the major neurotransmitter of the body,
  • the synthesis of antibodies,
  • the utilization of nutrients-including fats, proteins, and carbohydrates,
  • the maintenance of blood sugar levels,
  • the synthesis of porphyrin-a heme precursor of importance in hemoglobin synthesis,
  • the metabolism of some minerals and trace elements,
  • the synthesis of steroid hormones, and
  • the detoxification of drugs, including sulphonamides.

This makes pantethine good for several related benefits. You may have noticed the several highlighted “increases HDL” references. We are very interested in that because HDL help grab and carry the arterial plaque that we are loosening up to the liver. This and other aspects apply to both Artery Clear as well as Cholesterol Balance.

Diabetes
Pantethine may be a good cholesterol-lowering alternative for people with diabetes, who cannot take niacin due to the potential side effects on blood sugar regulation. The FDA estimates that 90 million American adults, roughly half the adult population, have elevated cholesterol levels. Doctors who conducted another study in Italy tested the effectiveness of pantethine in treating high cholesterol in women. After 16 weeks of treatment, significant reductions of total cholesterol, LDL-cholesterol and LDL-C/HDL-C ratio could be observed. The authors of the study recommended that pantethine should be considered in the long-term treatment of high cholesterol occurring in the perimenopausal age. These and several open studies have specifically studied the use of pantethine to improve cholesterol and triglyceride levels in people with diabetes and found it effective- without causing harmful effects.

However, there is some concern that very highdoses can cause side effects. For these reasons, and being in combination with several other nutrients, we have opted to keep it at sufficient levels to experience benefits without side effects.

Triglycerides and Fatty Liver
In addition to the HDL production we are interested in, pantethine also lowerstriglyceride levels. Studies in the effect of pantethine on triglycerides indicate that a daily dose of pantethine is effective in lowering triglyceride levels. Triglycerides are one of the forms of fat stored by the body and used for energy and new cell formation. In fatty liver, large droplets of fat, containing mostly triglycerides, collect within cells of the liver.

Coenzyme A (CoA) is involved in more than 70 enzymatic reactions. Pantethine is a precursor of CoA- and CoA is a cofactor in fatty acid oxidationandcarbohydrate metabolism. Some people have only modestly elevated cholesterol but very high triglycerides, so pantethine may be especially useful for them.

As a pleasant byproduct, pantethine appears toimprove symptoms associated with having a fatty liver. Since the liver filters out our loosened plaque – as well as many other things – we want a healthy and unplugged liver. (The milk thistle in our ... also helps here.)

The liver is also the organ responsible for changing fats eaten in the diet to types of fat that can be stored and used by the body. In a study conducted in Japan, 600 mg/day of pantethine was administered to 16 outpatients with fatty liver and hypertriglyceridemia. This was to see whether pantethineimproved fatty liver using abdominal plain computed tomography. Nine of the 16-pantethine patients were no longer diagnosed as having fatty liver after the study period.

All-in-all, we are pleased to include pantethine in our ... .

(Abstract):

As a precursor to Coenzyme A, a necessary component of the lipid catabolic process, pantethine would be a logical addition to lipid lowering regimens. Interestingly, pantethine has been shown to lower triglycerides and LDL while increasing HDL by a mechanism other than the coenzyme A portion of the molecule. Pantethine is thought to inhibit cholesterol synthesis as well as accelerate fatty acid break down in the mitochondria. Sub-therapeutic doses can work synergistically with other ingredients to reduce cholesterol and triglyceride levels.

Wittwer C. Et. al. Pantethine lipomodulation: evidence for cysteamine mediation in vitro and in vivo. Atherosclerosis. 1987; 68(1-2):41-49
Cighetti G. Et al. Modulation of HMG-CoA reductase activity by pantetheine/pantethine. Biocheim Biophys Acta. 1988; 963(2):389-393

 

[theLaw]

@haidut

Hey Haidut,

I asked a question on Danny's live-chat, but I think you guys were only able to get to the first part.

If you had to go back and do it over again, how would you :

1. Clean out the liver?

I think your response was to keep fat low, and feed the liver with orange juice (I assume with adequate protein as well).

2. Heal digestion?

3. Purge stored pufa?

Thanks!

 

[Mauritio]

Well, it didn't seem to affect the monkeys that badly otherwise the study would have mentioned something. Also, taking taurine and vitamin E greatly reduces the oxidative PUFA poisons, and vitamin E may even saturate some of the PUFAs before they are burned by the cells, thus reducing damage even further.
I am just not sure Peat's way of depleting them slowly is practical for everybody. He says that stored PUFA is more or less safe and with time the liver with glucuronidate them out of the body. The problem is, virtually everybody is oxidizing PUFAs all the time due to inefficient metabolism, low glycogen, chronic conditions, stress, exercise, etc. Taking niacinamide and aspirin may help but then again many people cannot take aspirin for various reasons. Long story short - I think that for SOME people who are burning PUFA anyways it may be better to just eat a fat-free diet for 30 days and be done with it.
Also, I am not sure the monkeys were forced to flush their PUFA into the blood stream. They ate enough sugar to prevent adrenalin from rising, so it must be their muscles burning the PUFA at high speed while on a fat-free diet.
Peat mentioned that the guy who went on a fat-free milk and orange juice diet experienced significant weight loss and it was not muscle loss but fat. So, I think it's worth a try to do very low fat diet for a month. Note that the monkeys were not exercising, otherwise it would have been mentioned. The PUFA were burned through normal metabolism, not stress and adrenalin.
Just my 2c.

@haidut Any idea on the suggested dosage of taurine or vitamin e?
All uncoupling substances i tried, including 11keto dht, caffeine, thyroid hormone , red light turned out to make me puffy ,anxious and cause hair loss . Of course the was severity was directly proportional to the dosage and thats why i never went to crazy high dosages of all of them.
I always suspected liver problems behind that e.g. my liver not beeing able to process the substances or sth like that.
Do you think the real problem could be a faster metabolism that those substances created , and the faster metabolism that caused PUFA liberation and oxidation ,which turns on the whole stress hormone cascade ( serotonin, prolactin, estrogen...) ?
If thats true Taurine, Vitamin E and Coconut Oil should be combined with the above mentioned substances to counter the PUFA-damage ? And wouldnt this also be a faster way of getting rid of PUFA ?

 

[haidut]

@haidut

Hey Haidut,

I asked a question on Danny's live-chat, but I think you guys were only able to get to the first part.

If you had to go back and do it over again, how would you :

1. Clean out the liver?


2. Heal digestion?

3. Purge stored pufa?

Thanks!

Yes, these sound about right. Caffeine and K2, glycine, taurine, sucrose, niacinamide, etc should all help clean the liver of fat. As far as digestion, anti-serotonin and antihistamine chemicals could greatly help, gelatin/glycine, magnesium and vitamin B6 can all help heal a leaky gut, and of course antibiotics/charcoal every now and then could help too. As far as purging PUFA, simply raising metabolism will likely increase PUFA disposition and taking 400 IU of vitamin E 2-3 times weekly will help protect from effects of circulating PUFA and even deactivate some of the PUFA directly.

 

[lollipop]

Yes, these sound about right. Caffeine and K2, glycine, taurine, sucrose, niacinamide, etc should all help clean the liver of fat. As far as digestion, anti-serotonin and antihistamine chemicals could greatly help, gelatin/glycine, magnesium and vitamin B6 can all help heal a leaky gut, and of course antibiotics/charcoal every now and then could help too. As far as purging PUFA, simply raising metabolism will likely increase PUFA disposition and taking 400 IU of vitamin E 2-3 times weekly will help protect from effects of circulating PUFA and even deactivate some of the PUFA directly.

This is a helpful post. Thank you @haidut and @theLaw! I enjoy your interviews Haidut. I can’t make it live, but listen the next day. The BEST $1 a month I have ever spent. Like Danny says, I learn soooooo much from your interviews

 

[haidut]

This is a helpful post. Thank you @haidut and @theLaw! I enjoy your interviews Haidut. I can’t make it live, but listen the next day. The BEST $1 a month I have ever spent. Like Danny says, I learn soooooo much from your interviews

Thanks Lisa! These shows are so much fun for me. Danny thinks he is drawing me away from my fun-filled Friday nights, but the truth is that the shows are more fun for me than my other typical Friday activities So, hopefully a win-win for everybody.

 

[Regina]

Thanks Lisa! These shows are so much fun for me. Danny thinks he is drawing me away from my fun-filled Friday nights, but the truth is that the shows are more fun for me than my other typical Friday activities So, hopefully a win-win for everybody.

 

[tara]

Can someone please tell me what exactly you'd be eating on a no fat, solids-based diet?? I can't see how you can avoid it being mostly liquid tbh. It's all very well to say "avoid liquids", but what are you left with? Starch, if you're into it. Fruit, which is mostly water. What else?? Meat and eggs are out. Also, do people realise that a true no fat diet means ZERO fat milk, not just "low fat"? It seems to me that if the idea is to try a no fat/ultra-low fat diet, AND have it be solids-based, you basically have to eat a lot of starch. Unless I'm missing something?

Some people are fine eating starch, but for those who aren't ...
I don't know about completely zero fat, but some options you can get pretty low fat:
fruit/dried fruit/honey (some people seem to do well eating a lot of fruit)
salad veges
jellies made with gelatin and fruit juice/concentrate/stewed fruit/sugar
farmers cheese or quark made with milk as low-fat as you want/can get
cheesecake or something made with the above, and maybe eggwhites etc

 

[Dobbler]

Thanks Lisa! These shows are so much fun for me. Danny thinks he is drawing me away from my fun-filled Friday nights, but the truth is that the shows are more fun for me than my other typical Friday activities So, hopefully a win-win for everybody.

Big thanks for the podcasts with Danny, they are really pleasant and enjoyable to listen.

 

[haidut]

Big thanks for the podcasts with Danny, they are really pleasant and enjoyable to listen.

My pleasure!

 

[Light]

I would like to avoid the problems @tara mentioned above. Why would Ray specify that total fat be low? If you can keep pufa intake very low while still eating some fat (say Hydrogenated co), would dietary sat fat still interfere with pufa depletion? I seem to remember Ray talking about how the body can safely, slowly rid itself of pufa (without burning them) - is this how a "depletion" diet works? If so why would sat fat interfere?

If pufa accumulates so easily in the body, how can children eat lots of pufa but typically not have metabolic problems until puberty or later? Why wouldn't a pufa-depleted adult similarly have 13+ years of high pufa before encountering metabolic problems?

I would like to re-raise these questions.
If you keep PUFA intake low, why do you need to also keep saturated fats low? Why should total fat be low?

Yeah, it looks like one could get half Peat's recommended protein from what's explicitly listed in fruit -eg 40-50+ g, depending on calorie needs and fruit choices

@tara I've been trying to find fruits that are high in prorein yet very very low in pufa.
Even orange juice has quite alot of pufa if you have a liter a day, especially if you're trying to keep PUFA under 0.5g/day.
The only way I found to get 40g of protein from fruit (non starchy fruit) is to have about 20 cups a day, way too much for me.
Can you specify how you got to that amount? I'm trying to get more protein from fruit and that would be really helpful.

In 2001 I did a 24 day distilled water fast.

I had to discard my pillow case after because it smelled like latex paint.

Water fasting easily removes polyunsaturates.

I also did a 20 day fast last year, and for a few months later had more energy and motivation than ever.
I'm pretty sure now that it was because of pufa depletion,

Obviously I'm gonna need time to get results, but I'm thinking of trying the following:

Zero/near Zero tryptophan, High Glycine, Zero/<0.5 g PUFA, Zero/Ultra Low Fat, High sugar (primarily from fruit), ideally all sugar and no starch. I'll be experimenting with the sugar/starch combo primarily probably. So far I've been having starch in the evening to stay full at night, but that may just be because my liver is still FUBAR and can't store sugar for long (I get hungry very soon after eating)

@Cirion Have you tried it? How'd it go?

How would this be different from running or fasting? The elevated lipolysis is definitely an issue that can overwhelm the liver and cause insulin resistance or even damage the kidneys (depending on how much PUFA is in stores). What would the charcoal do to protect in this protocol?
Plain niacin releases histamine and serotonin so that's certainly not good but I guess taking a bit of cypro can mitigate that issue.

@haidut The activated charcoal is to prevent the toxins that have been released from the adipose tissue and made it into the GI tract from being re-absorbed to the fat tissue, or worse- into the brain.
Same idea with the sauna - to sweat the toxins out.
When you say the liver will be overwhelmed - do you mean just from the pufa or from the released toxins as well? - And would Taurine and vit E make a big enough difference to make it worth a try (with niacinamide, not niacin)?

Yes I have ...never had extreme fat to lose but have lived on rice , potatoes, fruit, mushrooms , some greens and sugar for short periods of time and lose weight/cut up quickly. I have been using progest-E daily , niacinamide also, tiny amount of DHEA 2-3X week. Feel great, can lift heavier, no pain, no soreness. Also fasting sugar good, under 100. I have been doing this again recently, because of a flare up of auto immune disease that I think might be related to dairy, don't know need help badly with that. I feel great on it short term but live in New England so cant make it thru a winter this way. Too cold!! I am afraid to add back dairy and not sure what to do, was using raw milk and following Peat diet principles almost a year, when the flare-up hit and I don't know why. Going nearly fat free resolves what docs told me was impossible/incurable very quickly and you do not gain weight on it, lose quick, but I need a long term solution

Thank you for posting that. I find it very helpful as I embark on an almost zero fat diet.
Maybe you've seen it, but here's a thread that might help:
Happy Day: I Became Lactose TOLERANT

 

[Cirion]

I would like to re-raise these questions.
If you keep PUFA intake low, why do you need to also keep saturated fats low? Why should total fat be low?

Generally it is hard to keep PUFA low while total fat is high. I am trying to do low PUFA but high SFA:PUFA ratio currently. I think it would be painful to do a zero or ultra low fat diet without SFA's buffering against PUFA release.

@Cirion Have you tried it? How'd it go?

I did some dumb things along the way and got sidetracked trying other stuff. I have now been doing low pufa only for just a couple of weeks actually. I also now think going super low tryptophan is unrealistic, since I use so much milk for my protein, but supplementing with gelatin is probably useful. I also am not doing zero total fats but almost zero PUFA (less than a gram a day, some days almost 0.5 gram). Am trying for 50:1 SFA:PUFA ratios or so also. so something like 50 gram sfa a day and 1 gram pufa a day, using hydrogenated coconut oil for main fat source.

I think going zero total fats would be the fastest way to deplete pufa, but going zero (or close to it) pufa while having a reasonable SFA would probably be the healthiest way to deplete pufa. I decided I wanted to do it the healthier way.

I expect you may gain more weight (then again, might not, since pure SFA's are quite metabolic) with including some fats (in form of SFA), but, this would slowly replace your fat stores with SFA instead of PUFA which ultimately, would increase the metabolic rate, such that the weight would then come off more easily than when your body fat stores contained PUFA. This may be one of many reasons that people are able to lose body fat eventually after following the Peat diet correctly. I found the hard way that just eating too much fats that also contain PUFA wasn't beneficial for me (too much cheese, ice cream, butter, milk fat, chocolate, eggs, etc) just made me fatter, so I had to ditch all fats except coconut oil.

It is far too soon to say. I'll report back for sure though. During some of the dumb things I did I ate a lot of fat and with it far too much PUFA, which probably is why I gained a ton of weight.