PUFA Depletion Can (probably) Be Accomplished In 30 Days!

[MigFon]

I still don't get it.

Haidut stated, " even a single high PUFA meal replenished PUFA content in serum, cholesterol and tissues almost up to the levels seen before starting fat-free diets. So, after depleting PUFA make sure to avoid even a single "binge event".

So if I spend 10 years eating low fat & low PUFA, and then one day I decide to have some Fried Chicken & French Frys, according to Haidut the PUFA content of my tissues returns to what it was 10 years ago prior to eating low-fat & low-PUFA. So one meal ruins 10 years of a strict diet.

The way I see this issue is as follows:

I imagine a bucket filled with clean water to the top, such that no more water can fill the bucket. This bucket represents your total reserves of fat, and the clean water represents your saturated fat reserves when you are a baby. Now imagine that every day you drop a couple of tiny cups full of water (which represents saturated fat) with varying amounts of methylene blue (which represents PUFA) diluted in it. Some of the water+methylene blue will slowly displace the pristine water inside the bucket which will be spilled off, and over time the color of the water inside the bucket will become ever more blue. The cup of water represents the fat that you eat + the fat that you endogenously produce.

If you eat a zero fat diet or a low fat diet for long enough, you are putting in only clean water inside the bucket every day, and, over time the bucked will be replenished with just clean water. Once this is achieved, if you eat a high PUFA meal, you are adding a tiny cup of water with a really concentrated amount of methylene blue which will increase the concentration of methylene blue in the bucket water again, but because the bucket holds much more water than the total amount of stained liquid in the cup, it will not be as bad as it was before the depletion, because it shouldn't take as long to get yourself into a depleted state again, once you resume the usual PUFA restricted diet.

So it shouldn't be the end of the world if that happens, and vitamin E is your friend. :)

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Dobbler]

In theory, what would 30 day water fast do to PUFA stores? Yes it would do a lot of damage thats for sure. But wouldnt it deplete SAFA aswell? I dont understand it..

 

[The_xXx]

In theory, what would 30 day water fast do to PUFA stores? Yes it would do a lot of damage thats for sure. But wouldnt it deplete SAFA aswell? I dont understand it..

locigally like haidcut said it would burn first the bodyfat which is made up from saturated fat then your muscle and ant last the most damaging which is pufa.

 

[superhuman]

locigally like haidcut said it would burn first the bodyfat which is made up from saturated fat then your muscle and ant last the most damaging which is pufa.

Hmm i dont think it would burn muscles before the PUFA. It would just burn saturated fat with some pufa all the way since then PUFA will not be damaging when burned together with saturated fat, and also most of the PUFA would be burned by the muscles instead of liver etc so that no damage would be done

 

[CoconutEffect]

Anyone doing this?
Any thoughts on it as a potential method to reverse intractable "brain energy" illness.
@haidut might Defibron be a less extreme intervention?

 

[tara]

Any thoughts on it as a potential method to reverse intractable "brain energy" illness.

I'd say there is potential for it to go either way.
There's the case described in Peat's article of the man whose migraines disappeared on 6 months of controlled no-fat diet, and various other stories of people who have had improvements in various metabolic diseases from low-fat diets.
There's also the possible issue of increased risk of nerve demyelination on low-fat diets, and the other stories of people whose metabolic diseases worsened.

Peat has mentioned that fats in meals can be important for good absorption of nutrients from the food, which is also important for sustained energy.

Personally, I've not tried to go very low fat for any extended period of time. I've had short stretches of lowish fat, and it can seem good for a little while but not for long. I've been trying to keep PUFA consumption down for about 4 years. Before that it was probably moderate to highish. Nothing I've tried so far has made major headway against my key issue, which I assume is at least in part one of brain energy.

 

[haidut]

Anyone doing this?
Any thoughts on it as a potential method to reverse intractable "brain energy" illness.
@haidut might Defibron be a less extreme intervention?

I came across a few recent studies showing lanosterol in pretty low doses (5mg - 10mg daily) may do it. Google for "lanosterol Alzheimer". The fats in DeFibron do not have any direct evidence unless it is an inflammatory brain issue.

 

[CoconutEffect]

I came across a few recent studies showing lanosterol in pretty low doses (5mg - 10mg daily) may do it. Google for "lanosterol Alzheimer". The fats in DeFibron do not have any direct evidence unless it is an inflammatory brain issue.

I will give it a go and see how it affects my bipolar 2 symptoms, and keep everyone posted

 

[shepherdgirl]

Ray's Answer - I think some would still accumulate in the fat tissues, unless total fat intake was low, and PUFA intake was half a gram or less.

There's also the possible issue of increased risk of nerve demyelination on low-fat diets, and the other stories of people whose metabolic diseases worsened.

I would like to avoid the problems @tara mentioned above. Why would Ray specify that total fat be low? If you can keep pufa intake very low while still eating some fat (say Hydrogenated co), would dietary sat fat still interfere with pufa depletion? I seem to remember Ray talking about how the body can safely, slowly rid itself of pufa (without burning them) - is this how a "depletion" diet works? If so why would sat fat interfere?

If pufa accumulates so easily in the body, how can children eat lots of pufa but typically not have metabolic problems until puberty or later? Why wouldn't a pufa-depleted adult similarly have 13+ years of high pufa before encountering metabolic problems?

 

[Wagner83]

I'd say there is potential for it to go either way.

1)There's also the possible issue of increased risk of nerve demyelination on low-fat diets, and the other stories of people whose metabolic diseases worsened.

2)Peat has mentioned that fats in meals can be important for good absorption of nutrients from the food, which is also important for sustained energy.

3)Personally, I've not tried to go very low fat for any extended period of time. I've had short stretches of lowish fat, and it can seem good for a little while but not for long

1)Do you mind to elaborate more on the potential nerve issues?
I found those (anti Peat):
Dietary restriction supports peripheral nerve health by enhancing endogenous protein quality control mechanisms
Conclusion

Approaches to enhance endogenous repair and protective mechanisms that can support healthy neuromuscular function are of great interest in aging, as well as for hereditary neurodegeneration. The studies cited above strongly support the hypothesis that dietary modulations through life-long CR or extended IF can delay the progression of aging or neuropathy-related alterations in peripheral nerves. The beneficial effects in both approaches appear to have involved the chaperone and the autophagy-lysosomal pathways validating these mechanisms for therapy development. Conceivably, a combined approach of mild dietary modulation along with a pharmacological small molecule therapy targeting chaperones and/or autophagic-lysosomal pathway could provide a suitable option in humans. In either scenario there might be a critical time point by which such intervention should be initiated to obtain maximal benefits. Finally, since peripheral nerves rely on muscle cells for trophic support, combined interventions that involve increased physical activity should be considered for added benefits.

Exogenous lipids in myelination and myelination. - PubMed - NCBI

Also human brain myelinogenesis can be affected by environmental factors. EFA deficiency has been well studied for the important role of C22:6 (a C18:3 metabolite) in the vision system development. The observation that dietary fatty acids can affect membrane composition has led to the use of modified diets in some CNS pathological conditions. For example, preterm infants characterized by low levels of C22:6 and fed with formulae diets enriched in this fatty acid, show a recovery of visual function. The administration of C22:6 has also been tested in patients affected by peroxisomal biogenesis disorders which are associated with very low levels of this fatty acid in the brain. During the treatment, C22:6 content increases in red blood cells, and probably in the brain membranes, as considerable neurologic and electrophysiological improvement suggest. A mixture of glyceryltrierucate and glyceryltrioleate has been tested in the demyelinating disease Adrenoleukodistrophy which is characterized by an abnormal accumulation of very long chain fatty acids (VLCFA) in tissues and fluids.

2) The meal could be low ( =/= no) fat though.

3) What issues arose after some time on low fat diets?

 

[Amazoniac]

@haidut
It's difficult to get enough choline on a low-fat diet, regardless if the needs decrease a bit.
What's your opinion on supplementation to make sure you're getting enough? What about the different forms?
You had a cheese stick phase, I'm assuming you were keeping PUFA intake low on purpose during this phase.
How did you manage to get sufficient choline?

 

[haidut]

@haidut
It's difficult to get enough choline on a low-fat diet, regardless if the needs decrease a bit.
What's your opinion on supplementation to make sure you're getting enough? What about the different forms?
You had a cheese stick phase, I'm assuming you were keeping PUFA intake low on purpose during this phase.
How did you manage to get sufficient choline?

I was eating an egg every day, which I think provide enough choline for our daily needs. Not sure if there is another safe source though.

 

[paymanz]

Skim milk also has decent choline content.

 

[Mito]

Skim milk also has decent choline content.

One egg yolk contains about 120mg of choline. One cup of milk contains about 40mg of choline. Mainstream health authorities recommend 550 mg/day for men and 425 mg/day for women.

 

[paymanz]

One egg yolk contains about 120mg of choline. One cup of milk contains about 40mg of choline. Mainstream health authorities recommend 550 mg/day for men and 425 mg/day for women.

With 2L of low fat milk you get more than 300mg of choline.

 

[paymanz]

Btw yolks also have a substance called phosphatidylethanolamine , which is precursor for choline biosynthesis, so maybe an egg a day helps your choline status other than its actual choline that it has. But by improving de novo production of choline.

And this also requires methyl donors as you need to methylate PE to convert it to choline.

So folate,b12, betaine.... Also are required.

 

[cyclops]

Me - If a person limited dietary fat to the trace amounts in skim milk, sugary fruits, and then used Hydrogenated coconut oil as the fat source in the diet, would that keep PUFA from accumulating with age as well as deplete what is currently in fat stores?

Ray's Answer - Yes. With more knowledge about the composition of fruits, those might be able to provide all essential nutrients, but at present other foods (such as mushrooms, liver, shell fish) are needed to assure adequate trace minerals."

It strikes me as odd the Peat would allude that a fruitarian diet could be ok if more was known about fruit's exact nutritional makeup. We know you cannot get enough protein on a fruitarian diet, at least not the minimum 80 or so grams he recommends for even sedentary people. Maybe he meant in addition to milk/dairy?

 

[cyclops]

I'm sick of chickens putting PUFAs in their eggs, don't they know I'm tryin to PEAT over here?!

 

[tca300]

It strikes me as odd the Peat would allude that a fruitarian diet could be ok if more was known about fruit's exact nutritional makeup. We know you cannot get enough protein on a fruitarian diet, at least not the minimum 80 or so grams he recommends for even sedentary people. Maybe he meant in addition to milk/dairy?

I believe he thinks fruit has the keto acids that are mentioned to be in potatoes and therefore have a higher amount of protein than whats currently measured.

 

[tara]

It strikes me as odd the Peat would allude that a fruitarian diet could be ok if more was known about fruit's exact nutritional makeup. We know you cannot get enough protein on a fruitarian diet, at least not the minimum 80 or so grams he recommends for even sedentary people. Maybe he meant in addition to milk/dairy?

I believe he thinks fruit has the keto acids that are mentioned to be in potatoes and therefore have a higher amount of protein than whats currently measured.

Yeah, it looks like one could get half Peat's recommended protein from what's explicitly listed in fruit -eg 40-50+ g, depending on calorie needs and fruit choices, which some people not following Peat's recs might consider enough. If Peat is right that you also get to recycle some spare nitrogen into amino acids by using keto acids in the fruit, the effective protein could well be more than this.