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haidut

haidut

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Peat does talk about the beneficial anti-inflammatory effects of lactobaccilus, separate from its lactic acid production. However, lactic acidosis isn’t a problem of lactobacillus presence, but rather an imbalanced ratio of lactobacillus to lactate-utilizing bacteria like anaerostripes, which convert lactic acid into the useful butyrate.

When the bacteria reaches the colon - yes, it is usually beneficial. The issue the study discusses is that in people with slow digestion (basically majority of people) this bacteria colonizes the small intestine (SIBO) and leads to all kinds of issues. So, for probiotics to work they should be developed in a way that do not release their "payload" until they reach the colon.
 

Dave Clark

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I know I read a post somewhere where it was mentioned that Ray liked Lfe Extensions Florassit/Phage therapy. Apparently he likes and dislikes probiotics.
 

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When looking for hard cheese from raw milk of gras fed cows which includes a lot of living bacteria, I contacted the manufactures to get details about their fermentation cultures.

Most of them use bacteria who produce both versions of lactate, but I was able to find one that makes 90% l-lactate and even one who use streptococcus thermophilus and making 100% l-lactate. I guess this is not a bad choice
 
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I know I read a post somewhere where it was mentioned that Ray liked Lfe Extensions Florassit/Phage therapy. Apparently he likes and dislikes probiotics.

As I mentioned in other response in this thread - probiotics can be dangerous when they deliver their payload in the small intestine instead of the gut. In people with slow digestion, probiotics apparently can cause SIBO and SIBO is something Peat is certainly not in favor of. If the probiotics get delivered to the gut then they are probably beneficial as they replace more pathogenic bacteria that people tend to accumulate with age. I think this latter context is when Peat is in favor of them. The phages are viruses that eat bacteria, so they are not within the scope of the study in this thread, and are likely beneficial no matter where they are delivered (gut or small intestine).
 
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When looking for hard cheese from raw milk of gras fed cows which includes a lot of living bacteria, I contacted the manufactures to get details about their fermentation cultures.

Most of them use bacteria who produce both versions of lactate, but I was able to find one that makes 90% l-lactate and even one who use streptococcus thermophilus and making 100% l-lactate. I guess this is not a bad choice
Fascinating. If you do not mind sharing, which brands/companies? I would be interested to see if I can find them here in Dallas.
 

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[QUOTE post: 368036, member: 2762"]Fascinating. If you do not mind sharing, which brands/companies? I would be interested to see if I can find them here in Dallas.[/QUOTE]

It may be hard to find since I was especially looking for Austrian raw milk cheese. Austria has a "hay milk" certification which promises that cows who cannot find fresh gras in the wintertime are only allowed to be fed with hay. Also these cows may eat not just gras but also alpine herbs which grow there naturally. All milk will contain a little pufa, but the herbs seem to cause it become at least the beneficial CLA:
A study on the causes for the elevated n-3 fatty acids in cows' milk of alpine origin. - PubMed - NCBI

The company is called SalzburgMilch GmbH who manufactures organic mountain cheese (Bergkäse). I will attach the documentation of their starter culture.

Your best chances may be with Trader Joes as their Austrian and German counterpart is selling the cheese.
 

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bk_

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I just wanted to throw my own experience. I had been battling autoimmune disease for the past two years and besides switching to saturated fats and following other Ray Peat guidelines the absolute crucial step was taking a histamine degrading D-lactate free probiotic, without which I could not have recovered.

I had taken antibiotics before but afterwards something in my gut always got screwed up. Three days of stool testing showed I had disbiosis where I had certain strains missing and had the presence of infectious strains and a yeast infection. I couldn’t tolerate sugar or sweet fruits (would get inflammation flare up).

In fact when I look back to when my autoimmune problems started it was weeks after taking one of those off the shelf multi-strain probiotics to treat constipation.

Since then I’ve tried many probiotics and probiotic drinks and foods like sauerkraut and kimchi and they almost all made me more sick and it took me a while to connect the dots to histamine/d-lactate. The only probiotic that made me improve had only histamine degrading/neutral and d-lactate free strains that my naturopath recommended. I did get SIBO from it after 3 months of use and had to fight that for weeks. Than my autoimmune flared up again.

After months of struggle I went back on the same probiotic but at a much smaller dose (25 billion instead of 500 billion). I also stopped taking it after eating fruits or any “prebiotics” and took them on an empty stomach to prevent overgrowth. I now am significantly healthier and I have much more energy and my inflammation is virtually gone thanks to the probiotic. I can also tolerate sugar, candies, and any fruit without flare ups or brain fog.

Just my 2 cents.
 

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As I mentioned in other response in this thread - probiotics can be dangerous when they deliver their payload in the small intestine instead of the gut. In people with slow digestion, probiotics apparently can cause SIBO and SIBO is something Peat is certainly not in favor of. If the probiotics get delivered to the gut then they are probably beneficial as they replace more pathogenic bacteria that people tend to accumulate with age. I think this latter context is when Peat is in favor of them. The phages are viruses that eat bacteria, so they are not within the scope of the study in this thread, and are likely beneficial no matter where they are delivered (gut or small intestine).
I understand what you are saying. Question most people may have is "Aren't the probiotics specially formualed (coated, etc.) to deliver their payload in the large intestine?" And, if slow digestion compromises that, how would one know that is happening unless you have overt SIBO symptoms, etc.? Is there a way to specifically know probiotics are for you, or not? It isn't hard to imagine that fermented foods would have no protection to get their bacteria to the large intestine without the interference of the small intestine, but possibly a properly designed probiotic supplement could make it there without small intestine interference. Wouldn't a suppository with probiotics be the answer to this, or am I missing something? Why go through the whole house to get to the back door when you can just go to the back door, lol. If they do fecal transplants, why wouldn't probiotic suppositories work?
 
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I understand what you are saying. Question most people may have is "Aren't the probiotics specially formualed (coated, etc.) to deliver their payload in the large intestine?" And, if slow digestion compromises that, how would one know that is happening unless you have overt SIBO symptoms, etc.? Is there a way to specifically know probiotics are for you, or not? It isn't hard to imagine that fermented foods would have no protection to get their bacteria to the large intestine without the interference of the small intestine, but possibly a properly designed probiotic supplement could make it there without small intestine interference. Wouldn't a suppository with probiotics be the answer to this, or am I missing something? Why go through the whole house to get to the back door when you can just go to the back door, lol. If they do fecal transplants, why wouldn't probiotic suppositories work?

All great points, and this is why I stay away from probiotics altogether. There is just no reliable way to test if the capsule delivers its payload in the small intestine or the gut. If there was pure phage capsule product it would probably be good since the phages should be able to clear both the small intestine and the gut.
I think you are spot on with the rectal delivery of bacteria. The fecal transplant for patients with Clostridium infection are in effect an alternative delivery method for probiotics. There are quite a few studies on this method and even established products on the market. However they tend to be VERY expensive. Here is one, just as an example that I do not suggest or endorse in any way.
https://www.amazon.com/BioPure-Brav...id=1535987552&sr=8-3&keywords=bravo+probiotic
 

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All great points, and this is why I stay away from probiotics altogether. There is just no reliable way to test if the capsule delivers its payload in the small intestine or the gut. If there was pure phage capsule product it would probably be good since the phages should be able to clear both the small intestine and the gut.
I think you are spot on with the rectal delivery of bacteria. The fecal transplant for patients with Clostridium infection are in effect an alternative delivery method for probiotics. There are quite a few studies on this method and even established products on the market. However they tend to be VERY expensive. Here is one, just as an example that I do not suggest or endorse in any way.
https://www.amazon.com/BioPure-Brav...id=1535987552&sr=8-3&keywords=bravo+probiotic
Interesting, maybe we will start to see more studies and products if people, doctors, etc., report positive outcomes from the use of these suppository-type probiotics. Not only the delivery system, but I think knowing what strain or strains of bacteria are good for each particular individual is hard to know. I thought there were phage products out there that were just phages with no probiotics, can't remember the name of the companies though. Since there are so many people with SIBO and gut disorders out there, I am sure we will see more suppository probiotics hitting the market.
 
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Interesting, maybe we will start to see more studies and products if people, doctors, etc., report positive outcomes from the use of these suppository-type probiotics. Not only the delivery system, but I think knowing what strain or strains of bacteria are good for each particular individual is hard to know. I thought there were phage products out there that were just phages with no probiotics, can't remember the name of the companies though. Since there are so many people with SIBO and gut disorders out there, I am sure we will see more suppository probiotics hitting the market.
@Dave Clark @haidut

Here is the product I used that is only phages:

Vibranelle (formally Nutrivee) Advanced Prebiotic - Supports Beneficial Bacteria - Works Within Hours - 60 ct. (NEW) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01CTBDDWY/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_XawJBb90QQG3J
 
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That looks very interesting, thanks. Have you or someone you know tried it?
I did. Effective. What I discovered is phages are a short term strategy - one bottle only. When I tried to go past that, I developed side effects that changed immediately after stopping. Haven’t needed to use them since.
 

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@Dave Clark @haidut

Here is the product I used that is only phages:

Vibranelle (formally Nutrivee) Advanced Prebiotic - Supports Beneficial Bacteria - Works Within Hours - 60 ct. (NEW) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01CTBDDWY/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_XawJBb90QQG3J

The product description reads "as much as 10-fold growth in the small intestine."

Isn't that what the main study of this thread warns about ? The 10-fold growth refers to a D-Lactic Acid producing strain (Lactobacillus Lactis).

At least it is a good precaution to use only as a short-term strategy, initial perceived benefits could have come from the 100-fold growth in the colon.
 
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lollipop

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The product description reads "as much as 10-fold growth in the small intestine."

Isn't that what the main study of this thread warns about ? The 10-fold growth refers to a D-Lactic Acid producing strain (Lactobacillus Lactis).

At least it is a good precaution to use only as a short-term strategy, initial perceived benefits could have come from the 100-fold growth in the colon.
I am not sure that all of the actions of phages are fully understood. This product contains simply the same four phages in the Life Extension product minus the probiotics.
 

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I am not sure that all of the actions of phages are fully understood. This product contains simply the same four phages in the Life Extension product minus the probiotics.
Right but prebiotics have been shown to increase the growth of Lactic Acid producing probiotics in those ranges (10-100 fold) in the small, large intestines and the colon. In the description they refered to two particular probiotic strains but maybe it promotes different strains in different individuals. Maybe not D-Lactic Acid producing ones but the ones that don't produce Lactic Acid at all are extremely rare like S. Boulardii (present in mangoes and lychees for instance).
 
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lollipop

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Right but prebiotics have been shown to increase the growth of Lactic Acid producing probiotics in those ranges (10-100 fold) in the small, large intestines and the colon. In the description they refered to two particular probiotic strains but maybe it promotes different strains in different individuals. Maybe not D-Lactic Acid producing ones but the ones that don't produce Lactic Acid at all are extremely rare like S. Boulardii (present in mangoes and lychees for instance).
Not arguing with you here. Just highlighting that this product only contains the phages that Ray has recommended in the past. I am not an expert in their action. Thank you for highlighting in case someone wants to dig deeper.
 

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