Peat + Vegan = Can It Be Done?

tara

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Well according to my fitness pal, I only track once in a while out of curiousity, I get the recommended amounts and exceed most (it doesn't increase amounts to meet activity). Very low PUFA, way exceed all vitamins shown--C, E, A. The only thing I don't get is the recommended sodium, but I don't track hot sauce so I think I've probably got it covered there :) Potatoes are a powerhouse I've realized, including calorie wise haha.
At least 100 g protein, and at least 2500 cals - maybe more, esp if you are training hard or extra tall or got a bit of catch up repair to do from previous restrictive dieting?
Salting to taste is probably OK for sodium.
 

slayers

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Oct 28, 2012
Messages
165
look through these studies
These studies show vegetarians / vegans are far healthier than meat eaters.
Cancer:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/artic...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/artic...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12...
Diabetes:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24...
Heart Disease:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17...
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/1...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/70...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/artic...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15...
American Dietetics Association Position on veganism:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19...
Longest living population:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11...
Low Carbohydrate Diets and mortality:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20...
Plant Foods have a complete amino acid composition:
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/1...
 

sprinter

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I would really like to be a vegetarian. I love the idea of not eating flesh. I struggle with this every so often. I think I'm gonna do it this time.

Eggs, Milk, Yogurt, Cheese, Butter, Potatoes, Honey, Maple Syrup, Coffee, Fruits and Fruit Juices, White Rice, Coconut Oil, Chocolate, Maybe some Vegetables (and Fruits people usually think of as vegetables). And I'll still eat Bivalves (at first or maybe indefinitely). Plus I got good supplements. Do I really need to eat meat and gelatin? I think not!
 
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johnwester130

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Yes, but you would need eggshell calcium supplements and liver powder capsules.

So not really a vegan diet, but all the edible food could be vegan

potatoes and masa harina for starch
coconut milk
fruit

take the eggshell calcium supplement and liver powder capsule


You would be okay,
 

Stilgar

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I get something that resembles "serotonin syndrome" when I eat a single banana; sweating, hair loss, agitation, bloating, etc. I have allergic reactions to most vegetables and fruits. Without meats and cheeses, I would be extremely limited in my food choices.

You are not alone! I experience something similar.
 

YourUniverse

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Been eating a vegetarian peat-style diet since I discovered this forum in November 2017, where I converted from full-on veganism. I focus on skim milk, cheese, coffee, orange juice, other fruit, carrots, coconut oil, salt, some eggs now and then, some rice now and then, some bread now and then. Supplementing K2, calcium carbonate with the K2, E, B1 with coffee, and 3 minutes of UVB light exposure for vitamin D.

I can't say I feel UNBELIEVEABLE yet. I certainly dont feel worse than with any other diet style. My bottle of Kuinone has just arrived today, so I consider this the true beginning of the diet. Perhaps adding liver once a week and shellfish a few times a week would upgrade, although I'm not sure. Perhaps I can't claim to be peating until I add those into the diet. Just sharing my story.
 

Travis

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The coconut is a Peat staple, an image of which can even be found on his website.

Although he has good things to say about fruit and tubers, Ray Peat attacks the leaf!: Vegetables, etc.—Who Defines Food?

He makes some good points, but I haven't found leaves I eat to especially toxic myself. I am choosing the leaf over dairy at the moment because it has less hormones and no opiate effects (except for those found in spinach, of course).

So, many vegan foods are Peat‐friendly: fruit, coconut, and tubers (sounds like an Islander's diet without fish).
 

Ritchie

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The coconut is a Peat staple, an image of which can even be found on his website.

Although he has good things to say about fruit and tubers, Ray Peat attacks the leaf!: Vegetables, etc.—Who Defines Food?

He makes some good points, but I haven't found leaves I eat to especially toxic myself. I am choosing the leaf over dairy at the moment because it has less hormones and no opiate effects (except for those found in spinach, of course).

So, many vegan foods are Peat‐friendly: fruit, coconut, and tubers (sounds like an Islander's diet without fish).
I like leaves as well, feel way better when I include them in my diet.. Peat does acknowledge the nutrient density of them (despite that article) and consumes leafy green broths regularly, I think when cooked Peat's concerns for them are minimised, similar to mushrooms and starchy foods.. Add chocolate, coffee, rice, mushrooms, carrot salads, sugar and orange juice into that list.. And I personally think Peat over plays the negatives and ignores the positives of legumes and lentils (excluding soy). They are extremely low in fat, fantastic source of protein, have a great amino acid profile (low in tryptophan, methionine), zero heme iron. Peat doesn't like them because of the phytates and fibre but I think this is overstated, and becomes quite irrelevant when prepared properly.
 

Travis

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I like leaves as well, feel way better when I include them in my diet.. Peat does acknowledge the nutrient density of them (despite that article) and consumes leafy green broths regularly, I think when cooked Peat's concerns for them are minimised, similar to mushrooms and starchy foods.. Add chocolate, coffee, rice, mushrooms, carrot salads, sugar and orange juice into that list.. And I personally think Peat over plays the negatives and ignores the positives of legumes and lentils (excluding soy). They are extremely low in fat, fantastic source of protein, have a great amino acid profile (low in tryptophan, methionine), zero heme iron. Peat doesn't like them because of the phytates and fibre but I think this is overstated, and becomes quite irrelevant when prepared properly.
There are so many leaf types that all three of us can be right. There are certainly some toxic bitter leaves out there but toxins vary considerably across species. I think we'd all have a hard time eating one pound of bay leaves—or fennel—per day but lettuce, spinach, and kale seem pretty mild.

But he also says a few things about wheat, as he should. Wheat is a terrible plant; not because of it's 'toxins,' but because of its protein. Using chromatography wheat might seem nontoxic because it doesn't have many small‐molecule toxins, but it does have less‐digestible peptide segments found within the seed storage proteins; these can cause a great deal of trouble.

Besides histamine and exorphins, gluten has another way to sabotage someone's mind: autoantibodies. Technically of course gluten doesn't 'have these,' but the body produces them in response—harming itself indirectly through their production. Antibodies to gluten fragments can then go on to bind similar proteins in the body. Sometimes, these autoantibodies can bind to acetylcholine receptors—leading to dullness and eye‐drooping. This is the most long‐lasting effect from eating gluten, yet also the less‐certain. This greatly depends as much on digestive enzymes as it does on a person's T cells, as gluten peptides need to enter the body in long segments for even the chance of this occurring.

And this can also get worse the moment a person stops eating gluten; the antibodies no longer have the circulating gluten peptides to bind to, leaving their propensity to bind bodily proteins go unchecked.
 

johnwester130

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The coconut is a Peat staple, an image of which can even be found on his website.

Although he has good things to say about fruit and tubers, Ray Peat attacks the leaf!: Vegetables, etc.—Who Defines Food?

He makes some good points, but I haven't found leaves I eat to especially toxic myself. I am choosing the leaf over dairy at the moment because it has less hormones and no opiate effects (except for those found in spinach, of course).

So, many vegan foods are Peat‐friendly: fruit, coconut, and tubers (sounds like an Islander's diet without fish).

why not fat free milk ? the fat is the problem, that's where the hormones and problems are
 

Travis

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why not fat free milk ? the fat is the problem, that's where the hormones and problems are
I would consider the protein fraction more problematic.
 

Ritchie

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There are so many leaf types that all three of us can be right. There are certainly some toxic bitter leaves out there but toxins vary considerably across species. I think we'd all have a hard time eating one pound of bay leaves—or fennel—per day but lettuce, spinach, and kale seem pretty mild.

But he also says a few things about wheat, as he should. Wheat is a terrible plant; not because of it's 'toxins,' but because of its protein. Using chromatography wheat might seem nontoxic because it doesn't have many small‐molecule toxins, but it does have less‐digestible peptide segments found within the seed storage proteins; these can cause a great deal of trouble.

Besides histamine and exorphins, gluten has another way to sabotage someone's mind: autoantibodies. Technically of course gluten doesn't 'have these,' but the body produces them in response—harming itself indirectly through their production. Antibodies to gluten fragments can then go on to bind similar proteins in the body. Sometimes, these autoantibodies can bind to acetylcholine receptors—leading to dullness and eye‐drooping. This is the most long‐lasting effect from eating gluten, yet also the less‐certain. This greatly depends as much on digestive enzymes as it does on a person's T cells, as gluten peptides need to enter the body in long segments for even the chance of this occurring.

And this can also get worse the moment a person stops eating gluten; the antibodies no longer have the circulating gluten peptides to bind to, leaving their propensity to bind bodily proteins go unchecked.
Yeah I agree and completely avoid wheat and gluten in general. What is your view and take on well prepared and cooked legumes and lentils (not including soy)?
 

Travis

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Yeah I agree and completely avoid wheat and gluten in general. What is your view and take on well prepared and cooked legumes and lentils (not including soy)?
A few years ago I came across lots of free lentils from my sister who was moving to Portland. I ate them and they seem less psychoactive than oats, grains, and cheese: No real opiate effect, histamine rush, or anything much; I would put these next to potatoes in general suitability, and high on the cooked foods list.

You mention soy. I just found out that soy has an exorphin for the μ‐opiate receptor; the other plant exorphins—such as those found in wheat (GEB5) and spinach (rubiscolin)—work on the δ‐opiate receptor. After reading that genistein and daidzein—although weakly estrogenic—are perhaps best seen as estrogen antagonists, I had been thinking that most anti‐soy talk was merely irrational backlash from the dairy industry. While this must be partially true, soy is unusual in that it has an exorphin. (Soy is also unusually high in polyamines.)

Paroli, Eugenio. "Opioid peptides from food (the exorphins)." Sociological and Medical Aspects of Nutrition. Vol. 55. Karger Publishers (1988)
Ohinata, Kousaku. "Soymorphins, novel μ opioid peptides derived from soy β-conglycinin β-subunit, have anxiolytic activities." Bioscience, biotechnology, and biochemistry (2007)
 
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Travis

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what does this mean in the context of milk ?
The casein protein can release peptides upon digestion that are potentially immunogenic. Also, it can release a peptide called β-casomorphin, which works on the μ‐opiate receptor. This is actually a very strong opiate:

'Apparently, µ-receptors mediate many neuroendocrine functions, whereas δ-receptors prevail in peripheral tissue, particularly gastro-intestinal mucosa and intestine. It is rather interesting that the β-casomorphins are, for now, the unique `natural' ligands of µ-receptors.' ―Paroli

Bovine β-casomorphin is stronger than human β-casomorphin.

Paroli, Eugenio. "Opioid peptides from food (the exorphins)." Sociological and Medical Aspects of Nutrition. Vol. 55. Karger Publishers (1988)
 

Ritchie

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A few years ago I came across lots of free lentils from my sister who was moving to Portland. I ate them and they seem less psychoactive than oats, grains, and cheese: No real opiate effect, histamine rush, or anything much; I would put these next to potatoes in general suitability, and high on the cooked foods list.

You mention soy. I just found out that soy has an exorphin for the μ‐opiate receptor; the other plant exorphins—such as those found in wheat (GEB5) and spinach (rubiscolin)—work on the δ‐opiate receptor. After reading that genistein and daidzein—although weakly estrogenic—are perhaps best seen as estrogen antagonists, I had been thinking that most anti‐soy talk was merely irrational backlash from the dairy industry. While this must be partially true, soy is unusual in that it has an exorphin. (Soy is also unusually high in polyamines.)

Paroli, Eugenio. "Opioid peptides from food (the exorphins)." Sociological and Medical Aspects of Nutrition. Vol. 55. Karger Publishers (1988)
Ohinata, Kousaku. "Soymorphins, novel μ opioid peptides derived from soy β-conglycinin β-subunit, have anxiolytic activities." Bioscience, biotechnology, and biochemistry (2007)
Very interesting. My concern with soy is more the high fat content, much of which is unsaturated.. I have also seen a lot of evidence showing that soy is quite a strong estrogen antagonist however the fat content is enough to steer me clear. Pretty much all of the other legumes and lentils are very low in fat.
 
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Wagner83

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There are so many leaf types that all three of us can be right. There are certainly some toxic bitter leaves out there but toxins vary considerably across species. I think we'd all have a hard time eating one pound of bay leaves—or fennel—per day but lettuce, spinach, and kale seem pretty mild.

But he also says a few things about wheat, as he should. Wheat is a terrible plant; not because of it's 'toxins,' but because of its protein. Using chromatography wheat might seem nontoxic because it doesn't have many small‐molecule toxins, but it does have less‐digestible peptide segments found within the seed storage proteins; these can cause a great deal of trouble.

Besides histamine and exorphins, gluten has another way to sabotage someone's mind: autoantibodies. Technically of course gluten doesn't 'have these,' but the body produces them in response—harming itself indirectly through their production. Antibodies to gluten fragments can then go on to bind similar proteins in the body. Sometimes, these autoantibodies can bind to acetylcholine receptors—leading to dullness and eye‐drooping. This is the most long‐lasting effect from eating gluten, yet also the less‐certain. This greatly depends as much on digestive enzymes as it does on a person's T cells, as gluten peptides need to enter the body in long segments for even the chance of this occurring.

And this can also get worse the moment a person stops eating gluten; the antibodies no longer have the circulating gluten peptides to bind to, leaving their propensity to bind bodily proteins go unchecked.

In an other post of yours you mentioned gluten could cause a lot of issues both when ingested and when removed from the diet, any idea how long would one have to wait before being free of potential side effects when it's removed? I find the potential for dullness and droopy eyes (dark circle under the eyes at least, not a scrotum beneath each of them) particularly interesting in my case.
 

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