Peat Got The Fats Quite Wrong

Giraffe

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schultz said:
post 100265 So I encourage you to read his 5 books, the articles on his website and all the audio interviews.
You can't order his books from his website any longer. Do you know of a way to get Peat's books?

By the way, your short sound files are great. Would you accept a wish list with topics? :)
 
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ballomar

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The effects that have been shown in these palmitic acid studies are quite interesting, but if you are healthy and not insulin resistant, I wouldn't worry about it. As to other SFA, they seem pretty good. For example, stearic acid:

Stearic acid is part of a control mechanism for mitochondria. There is a transferrin receptor that binds stearic acid, giving signaling function and has been tested in the HeLa human cancer cell line. Flies that exhibit Parkinson's like symptoms resulting from mitochondrial defect improved and survived much longer when feed stearic acid

That's from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stearic_acid

Lauric acid might also be beneficial:

Lauric acid increases total serum cholesterol more than many other fatty acids. But most of the increase is attributable to an increase in high-density lipoprotein (HDL) (the "good" blood cholesterol). As a result, lauric acid has been characterized as having "a more favorable effect on total HDL cholesterol than any other fatty acid [examined], either saturated or unsaturated".[15] In general, a lower total/HDL serum cholesterol ratio correlates with a decrease in atherosclerotic risk.[16] Nonetheless, an extensive meta-analysis on foods affecting the total/LDL serum cholesterol ratio found in 2003 that the net effects of lauric acid on coronary artery disease outcomes remained uncertain

That's also from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauric_acid

As to Palmitic acid, our bodies make their own. Our lungs are full of it. If we didn't have any they would clam up together and we suffocate. So eliminating palmitic acid from your diet is impossible. In moderation, people.
 

schultz

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Such_Saturation said:
So today is the 100th interview?

If anything it's more than 100. I'm sure he's done some that are not available like maybe some Politics and Science that John hasn't put up. If you count Brad and Jeremy's interview then there is like another 10-20 hours... I'd love to get a hold of that entire interview.

Giraffe said:
schultz said:
post 100265 So I encourage you to read his 5 books, the articles on his website and all the audio interviews.
You can't order his books from his website any longer. Do you know of a way to get Peat's books?

Oh you can't? I sent him a letter with a cheque in the mail and then 2 months later got all 5 books, but that was 3 years ago I think. They were really cheap too. I sent him like $70 and got 5 books and 2 years of newsletters.

Giraffe said:
By the way, your short sound files are great. Would you accept a wish list with topics? :)

Oh thank you :) Sure I can send you clips. If you PM me topics, I'll try and compile some clips. I don't have every interview "clipped" but I know where most of the stuff is, generally. I listen to audio (music, books, articles via text to speech [IVONA UK Amy is pretty good and not too robotic]) all day while I work, so if I don't have a topic clipped, and I don't remember which interview it's from, I can probably track it down in a day or two. I just finished 60 hours of Sherlock Holmes, which was very entertaining!
 
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tara

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schultz said:
post 100265 One of my pet peeves is when people get misrepresented.
Me too.

Steffi, I know I made some generalised comments that apply to more than the specifics you raised. However, your specifics exactly illustrate my point.

Steffi said:
post 100254 What I really dislike is when Ray praises facts as positive that may be positive in the very special circumstance he is talking about, but he fails to put that into relation and admit that it is "normally not good".
I'm not sure I know what you mean about praising facts. Peat states many facts, but I don't see him saying 'This is a good fact' or 'this is a bad fact'. He can't address every possible area of ignorance in all his possible readers in every single article.
But even so, is this the article you were referring to?:
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/diabetes.shtml
in which he says:
Ray Peat said:
Old gynecologists told me that it was common knowledge that "diabetic" women had intellectually precocious children.

Did you come away from that article thinking Peat had not mentioned anything negative about diabetes? Did you read the first paragraph, in which he talks about damage to energy generation capacity, and in particular:
Ray Peat said:
Diabetes is just one of the "terminal" diseases that can be caused by the polyunsaturated vegetable oils.
?

Steffi said:
post 100254 My critical information is targeted at the fats and questions Ray's "PUFA pure evil, SFA super, healthy, protective" paradigm.
As others have said, Peat does not say unlimited amounts of saturated fat are always a good thing. He says that they can be protective against particular kinds of harm. He also points out that cholesterol is a very useful substance, and is a substrate for producing other protective substances (steroid hormones). So it can be good to reduce high cholesterol by improving conversion to other needed substances, but it is not necessarily health-serving to reduce production of cholesterol. Your criticisms and linked studies did not seem to me to address these points.
 
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factosauras

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Peat is obviously a genius and has figured a ton of ***t out, but so was Tesla, who thought he could meet his energy requirements by standing on a vibrating plate and fell in love with pigeons.

In every area of knowledge its a good idea to apply your own reasoning, which is what you seem to be doing Tara. My personal conclusion is that the main problematic factor in the Peat diet is sugar, but this is obviously up for debate.

I was slim my entire life, and the only times I've gained weight are from being vegetarian and eating a Peat diet, both instances requiring me to eat more carbs than I ever had before.
 

messtafarian

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If I had never become really ill I would never have realized -- for myself -- that a thing like low cholesterol could be a bad thing. People who get truly serious and painful, debilitating illnesses are the ones with "low cholesterol". Neurological, mysterious and "incurable" patients often have champion cholesterol numbers even though they can't walk or urinate without a catheter.

From a scientific perspective, given the true continuum of health and disease, a rat that is gaining weight is often a *healther* rat, not a sicker one. Peat is really not interested in making people thinner and from what I've read neither is he interested in helping people meet health parameters that have nothing to do with health. People are urged to lower their cholesterol because there is a drug that lowers cholesterol. Then they get ALS. Then medicine claims it has no idea how that happened or what to do about it.

In order to understand what people are talking about here you have to chuck out pretty much every shred of crap pseudoscience you've ever read and start over.
 

Matt1951

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factosauras said:
Peat is obviously a genius and has figured a ton of s*** out, but so was Tesla, who thought he could meet his energy requirements by standing on a vibrating plate and fell in love with pigeons.

In every area of knowledge its a good idea to apply your own reasoning, which is what you seem to be doing Tara. My personal conclusion is that the main problematic factor in the Peat diet is sugar, but this is obviously up for debate.

I was slim my entire life, and the only times I've gained weight are from being vegetarian and eating a Peat diet, both instances requiring me to eat more carbs than I ever had before.

I lost a ton of weight - 98 lbs - on low carb. The weight started coming back after a couple of years. However, switching from low carb to Peat, I have dropped 18 lbs and the weight is still dropping. I never had any energy on low carb. Sugar is not the problem, it is part of the solution.
 
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factosauras said:
My personal conclusion is that the main problematic factor in the Peat diet is sugar, but this is obviously up for debate.

Nowhere does Peat say that sucrose white sugar should be consumed ad libitum, another Peat internet myth:

"Refined granulated sugar is extremely pure, but it lacks all of the essential nutrients, so it should be considered as a temporary therapeutic material, or as an occasional substitute when good fruit isn't available, or when available honey is allergenic." - RP

"Although plain sucrose can alleviate the metabolic suppression of an average diet, the effect of sugars in the diet is much more likely to be healthful in the long run when they are associated with an abundance of minerals, as in milk and fruit, which provide potassium and calcium and other protective nutrients." - RP

A Canadian fruitarian who travels the world for fruit, his take on why sucrose white sugar is not harmful (ignore what he says about salt):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piVMbgTv-Oo

factosauras said:
I was slim my entire life, and the only times I've gained weight are from being vegetarian and eating a Peat diet, both instances requiring me to eat more carbs than I ever had before.

What's your gender, age, height and approximate weight?

What's your definition of "carbs?"

Steffi said:
post 99625 The distress comes more from finding out that SFA are much worse than I thought, MUFA much much better und PUFA can have beneficial effects.

And I am now very comfortable trying out a different path, including especially MUFAs preferred in my diet.

Why do you think avocado, olive, macadamia nut, pecan, and hazelnut (monounsaturated fat) are the best sources of fat?
 
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factosauras

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messtafarian said:
post 100419 If I had never become really ill I would never have realized -- for myself -- that a thing like low cholesterol could be a bad thing. People who get truly serious and painful, debilitating illnesses are the ones with "low cholesterol". Neurological, mysterious and "incurable" patients often have champion cholesterol numbers even though they can't walk or urinate without a catheter.

From a scientific perspective, given the true continuum of health and disease, a rat that is gaining weight is often a *healther* rat, not a sicker one. Peat is really not interested in making people thinner and from what I've read neither is he interested in helping people meet health parameters that have nothing to do with health. People are urged to lower their cholesterol because there is a drug that lowers cholesterol. Then they get ALS. Then medicine claims it has no idea how that happened or what to do about it.

In order to understand what people are talking about here you have to chuck out pretty much every shred of crap pseudoscience you've ever read and start over.

If an animal/human is underweight, and has low muscle mass, then gaining weight would probably be a good thing.
Matt1951 said:
post 100422 I lost a ton of weight - 98 lbs - on low carb. The weight started coming back after a couple of years. However, switching from low carb to Peat, I have dropped 18 lbs and the weight is still dropping. I never had any energy on low carb. Sugar is not the problem, it is part of the solution.

Can I ask what you ate on low carb?
 
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Matt1951

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Can I ask what you ate on low carb?[/quote]
Bacon and eggs for breakfast, beef for lunch and dinner. Very few vegetables, nearly an all meat diet. Large servings though. My userid at forum.lowcarber.org is Matt51, and I have years of history posted there.
 

Velve921

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Steffi,

If you are comfortable, would you mind sharing your current diet versus your old diet? Maybe a 1-3 day comparison?

We could all have a better idea of your mindset and therefore be more helpful.
 
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Steffi

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Here is Ray's flying endorsement for consumption of coconut oil and other fat in his coconut oil article:
"Three times every day [...] prepared [...] food in coconut oil."
"animals which ate a lot of coconut oil were lean."

"I had put a tablespoonful of coconut oil on some rice [...] Every day for a couple of weeks"
"I increased my daily consumption of the oil to about an ounce [...]" with other foods
"including a quart of ice cream every day [..] over a period of six months"

"I found that eating more coconut oil lowered my weight another few pounds, and eating less caused it to increase.
The anti-obesity effect of coconut oil is clear in all of the animal studies, and in my friends who eat it regularly."

It is very clear why people would go and splurge on fat after reading this article.
This is the problem I wanted to point in the first place. As others have mentioned it is understandable why people would go and consume Aspirin in gram amounts and try live on gummy bears and sugar. It is easy to make a case for it with Ray's own words.

That being said he also rows back on some of his statements and he changes his opinion over time. Like in the coconut oil case. And I'm not so much critisizing Ray - after all his work is free and it provides very rare and therefore valuable viewpoints. And he's not going to change - he doesn't like to defend or discuss his theory. While this is very bad and takes away a lot of the value from his work it's not something for me to change.
However, a forum like this is where discussion can take place and that is what I tried to do. It worked better than I expected :) I wish there was more of that discussion.

When I found Ray's work for the first time I immediately tried to find critique (as I always do. For me good critique is the best and often only way to really understand and evaluate). There is very little critique out there and most of it has no value because it's not objective or scientific. Neither is lot of Ray's own work, but I find it interesting.


As to my diet I'm not good at quantifying it. Before Peat I think I ate less fat, mostly from nuts and mayo but rarely any dairy, practically no milk. Carbohydrates mostly complex, lots of beans.
Now I include lots of dairy, mostly milk, recently mostly skimmed. A simple day starts with 3 scrambled eggs and mushrooms and either OJ or sweet milk. Then over the day I drink depending on appetite either mostly milk or mostly OJ, 2-4 liters. Often I like my OJ sparkling with baking soda.
Some cheese, pickled beets, chocolate-coconut flour cake, chicharrones or papaya and rice pudding as snacks. Evening is potatoes with creamed spinach, some cheese.
Lots of chocolate is in there, tiny bits of liver once in a while. I also eat fish, rice, rye bread. Not a lot of fresh stuff, never liked the veggie stuff and good fruits are extremly hard to come by.
 
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Let us gather for a minute in remembrance of the double-bonds in my fat. **** the police :ss
 

narouz

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Such_Saturation said:
post 100585 Let us gather for a minute in remembrance of the double-bonds in my fat. f*** the police :ss
 

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Giraffe

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Steffi said:
post 100582 Here is Ray's flying endorsement for consumption of coconut oil and other fat in his coconut oil article:

"Three times every day [...] prepared [...] food in coconut oil."
"animals which ate a lot of coconut oil were lean."

"I had put a tablespoonful of coconut oil on some rice [...] Every day for a couple of weeks"
"I increased my daily consumption of the oil to about an ounce [...]" with other foods
"including a quart of ice cream every day [..] over a period of six months"

"I found that eating more coconut oil lowered my weight another few pounds, and eating less caused it to increase.
The anti-obesity effect of coconut oil is clear in all of the animal studies, and in my friends who eat it regularly."

It is very clear why people would go and splurge on fat after reading this article.
This is the problem I wanted to point in the first place. As others have mentioned it is understandable why people would go and consume Aspirin in gram amounts and try live on gummy bears and sugar. It is easy to make a case for it with Ray's own words.
A tablespoon, an ounce (28.35 g), 200-250 kcal per day from coconut oil... What is wrong with this amount? And what has it to do with gummy bears?
 
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tara

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I read that coconut oil article from the perspective that most people (who have access to enough food) eat more than an ounce of other fats in a day, and that a lot of it is likely to be unsaturated. In which case, either replacing some of it or adding an ounce of coconut oil would be protective. Maybe the effects could be expected to be different for the small percentage of people (in the west) who eat very restrictive low fat diets. For people who have been undereating calories as a consequence of severe fat restriction, the expected effect for many of increasing calories from coconut oil or any other source would be to gain some fat, at least for a while. This might be a necessary part of recovery for some people.
 
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Steffi

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@Giraffe:
People like to perceive information with their own bias - and if the information leaves lots of wiggle room it doesn't inform at all but only solidifies own opinion regardless of the truth.
Like when you think of a little coconut oil, an ounce; it's just a tablespoon for you. Yet it's closer to a soup ladle for me. If the oil is solid you may be able to heap an ounce onto a spoon, but in liquid form it's closer to 3 tbsp.
But eating more is making Ray loose even more weight!
And set aside the coconut oil. He's also talking about 140g of milkfat (from quart of ice cream) plus whatever else he ate daily.

My point is that even if you ignore contradictions of Ray's opinion to almost all other sources you will still find contradictions within Ray's work itself, especially as he refines his hypotheses over time.

You may know all this because you read and listened to everything you can find from Ray, but a lot of people don't and forget. If you just remember the last 3 letters you read it can become dangerous. This is kind of common sense, but it's easy to loose sight in the heat of the battle.


As I tried to establish, UFA can't be called bad. PUFA can be called bad, but not MUFA.
Here is always talked about "lots of unsaturated fats", just as I used to think. But your body is ALWAYS unsaturated to about 40%. It's MUFA and it's natural and fine. It is very hard to eat lots of PUFA. Unfortunately the food lobby only declares SFA on the label and nothing about the MUFA/PUFA ratio - which in my opinion is the important information. Or just PUFA would be fine.
But when you look it up, PUFA is in most cases a rather small fraction of the total fat. It is hard to eat any significant amounts. Human milk is 11% PUFA. If that didn't make good sense, it wouldn't be true.

Does anyone have statistics comparing health between Europe and USA? My impression is that Europe is far behind the US in PUFA consumption. Europe has been using a lot less PUFA in processed food and at home. Palm oil, coconut oil, and butter is widely used and although it is coming more and more, canola and soy are a lot rarer. Sunflower is the European Canola. Cottonseed is never seen.
 

schultz

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Steffi said:
Human milk is 11% PUFA. If that didn't make good sense, it wouldn't be true.

It's not about sense, or nonsense. The amount of PUFA in human milk is based on the amount in the diet and the amount in the mothers fat stores.

I've seen it range in studies from 7% to 43% but I have yet to see an analysis of a low PUFA population like the Tokelau.

Rat milk (mmm!) on an EFAD diet had around 75% of its fat as saturated and about 5% of its fat as PUFA.

The 43% PUFA in milk comes from a study that gave the mothers 70% of their diet as corn oil. Those babies probably turned out great...
 

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