Pansterone - Liquid Pregnenolone/DHEA Mix

[alywest]

Isn't egg count actually limited?

Not according to Ray Peat. Interestingly the doctors will make you feel like you're running out of eggs, but then I read Dr. Peat's version of things and he was actually focused on reproductive health at University of Oregon so he actually does know a thing or two! He says the claim that we run out of eggs is ridiculous, from what I recall, and that the real issue is estrogen rising to the point of making the uterus uninhabitable so that there is never any actual implantation or fetuses are quickly aborted spontaneously (miscarriage). If anyone has anything to add to this, please do!
The docs look at things like Anti-Mullerian hormone, FSH, LH and 2-3rd day of menstruation estrogen, and those give an idea of how close one is to menopause. They won't tell you that it's due to the extremely high estrogen, however, if you're trying to get pregnant they will give you progesterone. Apparently some will give you DHEA as well, but it seems that they usually give it in oral doses, so it would be interesting to know if the DHEA, or Pansterone, applied vaginally would actually be more beneficial, or if the DHEA applied topically over the uterus would be best.

 

[am00]

Not according to Ray Peat. Interestingly the doctors will make you feel like you're running out of eggs, but then I read Dr. Peat's version of things and he was actually focused on reproductive health at University of Oregon so he actually does know a thing or two! He says the claim that we run out of eggs is ridiculous, from what I recall, and that the real issue is estrogen rising to the point of making the uterus uninhabitable so that there is never any actual implantation or fetuses are quickly aborted spontaneously (miscarriage). If anyone has anything to add to this, please do!
The docs look at things like Anti-Mullerian hormone, FSH, LH and 2-3rd day of menstruation estrogen, and those give an idea of how close one is to menopause. They won't tell you that it's due to the extremely high estrogen, however, if you're trying to get pregnant they will give you progesterone. Apparently some will give you DHEA as well, but it seems that they usually give it in oral doses, so it would be interesting to know if the DHEA, or Pansterone, applied vaginally would actually be more beneficial, or if the DHEA applied topically over the uterus would be best.

Rising estrogen is somewhat natural process of protecting women against pregnancy which is physically exhausting, in certain age. But I agree that at least in late 30s and 40s women should be careless about getting pregnant.

 

[haidut]

Haidut, I love this product! I have a question, though. When it comes to topical application, it sounds like using it vaginally only affects the vaginal area and the hormonal effects remain mainly in that area. So would it be safe to say that a woman could apply the pansterone to the skin as suggested 3 x/day and then additionally use one application in the vaginal area? Or possibly three? At least that was how I understood it (that vaginal application didn't have systemic effects.)
I'm also wondering if anyone knows if applying for egg production and quality (it's a known treatment being used in the more high-end fertility clinics), would the best application be vaginal or would it be better to get the systemic benefits by applying to perhaps the lower abdomen, right over the uterus?

I think vaginal application also has systemic effects but like any topical application the immediate area is likely to receive the most benefit. However, over time the application starts to have systemic effects demonstrated by increased serum levels of steroids after 2-3 month topical (skin) application of DHEA in women.

 

[haidut]

.

 

[alywest]

Rising estrogen is somewhat natural process of protecting women against pregnancy which is physically exhausting, in certain age. But I agree that at least in late 30s and 40s women should be careless about getting pregnant.

Hmm, I'm not sure that's true but rather an opinion someone came up with to explain why women's estrogen rises. However, the rise in estrogen is also correlated with heart disease, stroke and breast cancer, so I'm not sure it's really the ideal natural state. Women who take DHEA into menopause can raise androgens

I think vaginal application also has systemic effects but like any topical application the immediate area is likely to receive the most benefit. However, over time the application starts to have systemic effects demonstrated by increased serum levels of steroids after 2-3 month topical (skin) application of DHEA in women.

OK thank you!

 

[am00]

Hmm, I'm not sure that's true but rather an opinion someone came up with to explain why women's estrogen rises. However, the rise in estrogen is also correlated with heart disease, stroke and breast cancer, so I'm not sure it's really the ideal natural state. Women who take DHEA into menopause can raise androgens

OK thank you!

Well, google what pregnancy does to body and it should be understandable. Older age also decreases chances to upbring children to their maturity. Nothing about aging is desirable.

 

[alywest]

@haidut I just want to thank you for all of your tireless efforts. The amount of research you provide everyone free of charge, not to mention your helpful explanations that allow people to make sense of it all, is truly awesome. I can't thank you enough for all you do for this community. I write this under the pansterone thread because in particular I think this might be the most important product you put out. But that's just my humble opinion.

 

[haidut]

@haidut I just want to thank you for all of your tireless efforts. The amount of research you provide everyone free of charge, not to mention your helpful explanations that allow people to make sense of it all, is truly awesome. I can't thank you enough for all you do for this community. I write this under the pansterone thread because in particular I think this might be the most important product you put out. But that's just my humble opinion.

Thank you! I try to do my best every day and knowing it helps even one person is the best reward I can ever get

 

[Cameron]

I have low pregnenolone levels when I was tested at 23.. why would this likely be? Also had low dht at only 400 @haidut

 

[baccheion]

I have low pregnenolone levels when I was tested at 23.. why would this likely be? Also had low dht at only 400 @haidut

Did they also run a full thyroid panel? Cholesterol?

 

[Cameron]

Did they also run a full thyroid panel? Cholesterol?

All were in range however just recently have I tried raising cholesterol with fructose and a dozen eggs with vitamin a maybe this would considerably help considering my diet was subpar at the time. I’m 25 so at 23 still that’s young for lowish test and preg

 

[Cameron]

I just wonder if low dose panterone is really worth it considering it’s hard to know what’s happening with androgens I would love to increase dht and t without negative feedback

 

[baccheion]

All were in range however just recently have I tried raising cholesterol with fructose and a dozen eggs with vitamin a maybe this would considerably help considering my diet was subpar at the time. I’m 25 so at 23 still that’s young for lowish test and preg

Can you share those results (with ranges) and the ones that showed low hormones?

 

[Cameron]

Can you share those results (with ranges) and the ones that showed low hormones?

Yes I will find and post shortly

 

[alywest]

I just wonder if low dose panterone is really worth it considering it’s hard to know what’s happening with androgens I would love to increase dht and t without negative feedback

A lot of it is the proper dosage of DHEA, which haidut already figured out in the dosage of the pansterone on the bottle. For a male who is trying to increase testosterone, the 15mg (12 drops total throughout the day) should help to increase 3b-HSD and 17b-HSD enzymes which convert the DHEA to androstenedione and androstenediol, which then further convert to testosterone and then 5a-DHT with the assistance of 5a reductase. If you are hypothyroid at all then you will have lower amounts of 5a reductase which will leave more of the testosterone to possibly be converted to estrogen via aromatase. A lot of the Peat advice is geared towards preventing the aromatase conversion, as it's promoted by things like inflammation. Nettle root and zinc can also help to prevent aromatase and keep the testosterone from converting. The pregnenolone in pansterone is also going to help block conversion to estrogen. Taking more than the prescribed dose of pansterone can also automatically increase the conversion to estrogen, probably because you are basically providing your system with too much testosterone at once. Progesterone also blocks estrogen, so you might also check out the product Cortinon which is progesterone and dhea.

 

[Zigzag]

A lot of it is the proper dosage of DHEA, which haidut already figured out in the dosage of the pansterone on the bottle. For a male who is trying to increase testosterone, the 15mg (12 drops total throughout the day) should help to increase 3b-HSD and 17b-HSD enzymes which convert the DHEA to androstenedione and androstenediol, which then further convert to testosterone and then 5a-DHT with the assistance of 5a reductase. If you are hypothyroid at all then you will have lower amounts of 5a reductase which will leave more of the testosterone to possibly be converted to estrogen via aromatase. A lot of the Peat advice is geared towards preventing the aromatase conversion, as it's promoted by things like inflammation. Nettle root and zinc can also help to prevent aromatase and keep the testosterone from converting. The pregnenolone in pansterone is also going to help block conversion to estrogen. Taking more than the prescribed dose of pansterone can also automatically increase the conversion to estrogen, probably because you are basically providing your system with too much testosterone at once. Progesterone also blocks estrogen, so you might also check out the product Cortinon which is progesterone and dhea.

It's me basically at this point. My testosterone levels are fairly high but aromatase does it's own thing. I'm subclinical hypo. I've been taking d3/k2 mk4/ZMA and so far I have to tell it's been helping. I've ordered androsterone with aim to prevent testosterone from converting to estro. Do you think it's actually good approach?

 

[alywest]

It's me basically at this point. My testosterone levels are fairly high but aromatase does it's own thing. I'm subclinical hypo. I've been taking d3/k2 mk4/ZMA and so far I have to tell it's been helping. I've ordered androsterone with aim to prevent testosterone from converting to estro. Do you think it's actually good approach?

Possibly, but you might really consider working on thyroid health more. Haidut has posted many studies on the forum showing the ability of T3 to not only inhibit aromatase, but also help raise 5a reductase so that you can work on the issue from multiple angles. Tyromix is a really good supplement, imho, for raising thyroid based on a Peat recommended ratio.

 

[Zigzag]

Possibly, but you might really consider working on thyroid health more. Haidut has posted many studies on the forum showing the ability of T3 to not only inhibit aromatase, but also help raise 5a reductase so that you can work on the issue from multiple angles. Tyromix is a really good supplement, imho, for raising thyroid based on a Peat recommended ratio.

I'll look into that. My last test results showed TSH: 3,5, ft3 and ft4 exactly in the middle of their respective ranges.

 

[alywest]

I'll look into that. My last test results showed TSH: 3,5, ft3 and ft4 exactly in the middle of their respective ranges.

Oh yeah, that's a really high TSH. If you look into it more you'll see that Ray Peat blames TSH for a lot of inflammation as it's an overactive pituitary gland. So inflammation is going to increase aromatase, which increases estrogen, which increases inflammation, and so on.

 

[baccheion]

I'll look into that. My last test results showed TSH: 3,5, ft3 and ft4 exactly in the middle of their respective ranges.

Do you have an iodine (or any other) deficiency?