Oxidal - Liquid Redox Modulator

[haidut]

yes i think niacinamide helps considerably in preventing the serotonergic symptoms of methylene blue. a good combo. But do think higher doses of niacinamide, 500mg -1g, could be counterproductive alongside MB?

Studies done by the company pushing nicotinamide riboside (NR) showed that a dose of 300mg and a dose of 1,000mg lead to the same increase in NAD after 24 hours. So, I guess there is probably no need to go up to 1g unless you have very serious inflammation. The 300mg daily dose also happens to be what Ray has consistently been recommending.

 

[haidut]

I have been trying between 10-18 drops of oxidial for the past 8 weeks. Should I be concerned about the MAO inhibiting effect?

The human studies for depression, bipolar, psychosis, etc used 15mg daily which would be more than 30 drops of Oxidal. There were no notable side effects in these studies but just in case I would try to consume a few hours away from foods like chocolate and cheese.

 

[haidut]

is it true that 0.5mg - 4mg per kilogram bodyweight is a safe dose?

The human trials with oral dose used 15mg daily but in hospitals where they use MB for recovery from shock, much higher doses of up to 500mg in a single dose and given through IV have been used. At those VERY high doses it can have risks related to serotonin syndrome, so I would try not to exceed the 15mg oral doses found safe and effective in the human studies.

 

[jenjls]

Thanks Haidut!

 

[ddjd]

I'm thinking MB, niacinamide, ketotifen, T3 and taurine, caffeine for the win

is it ok to take t3 with methylene blue?

 

[Wagner83]

Perhaps other foods to watch for would be those high in serotonin (pineapples, bananas, plantains..):
Dissolving Bones For Calcium

 

[Braveheart]

Perhaps other foods to watch for would be those high in serotonin (pineapples, bananas, plantains..):
Dissolving Bones For Calcium

Refresh me please, only briefly...what's wrong w the above fruits...they are very nutritious...I eat some almost daily...is my head going to fall off?

 

[Wagner83]

Refresh me please, only briefly...what's wrong w the above fruits...they are very nutritious...I eat some almost daily...is my head going to fall off?

I mean combining those fruits which contain actual serotonin with methylene blue (MAO inhibitor) may be a bad idea, but this is more of a question and caution, I don't know how reality would work out.

 

[Braveheart]

I mean combining those fruits which contain actual serotonin with methylene blue (MAO inhibitor) may be a bad idea, but this is more of a question and caution, I don't know how reality would work out.

Well, I take a little MB several times a week...Have not noticed any negatives, but then I don't know what to look for so I 'll have to study it...if it's a problem for me then the MB goes, cause I see no great benefits...again, don't know what to look for there either...thanks for your reply

 

[ddjd]

Is creatine safe to take with oxidal?

 

[Wagner83]

Well, I take a little MB several times a week...Have not noticed any negatives, but then I don't know what to look for so I 'll have to study it...if it's a problem for me then the MB goes, cause I see no great benefits...again, don't know what to look for there either...thanks for your reply

Travis suggested dietary serotonin wasn' t serotonergic in the brain (tryptophan is) but he also said it was oxidized by mao, so he wouldn't use a mao inhibitor with those foods. Hopefully he will answer and haidut may chime in with some thoughts of his on the potential issues with higher blood levels of serotonin (but not more serotonin activity in the brain.. e.g. fibrosis?). I know as much as you.
Since I had big issues with hard cheese while others don't notice anything even taking multiple mg of mb I guess reactions can be wildly different among individuals, better be safe than sorry though.

 

[Braveheart]

Travis suggested dietary serotonin wasn' t serotonergic in the brain (tryptophan is) but he also said it was oxidized by mao, so he wouldn't use a mao inhibitor with those foods. Hopefully he will answer and haidut may chime in with some thoughts of his on the potential issues with higher blood levels of serotonin (but not more serotonin activity in the brain). I know as much as you.
Since I had big issues with hard cheese while others don't notice anything even taking multiple mg of mb I guess reactions can be wildly different among individuals, better be safe than sorry though.

Thank you for replying...would like to know more

 

[Wagner83]

Thank you for replying...would like to know more

I read two pages so far (round of applause) :
"Some Fruits, Including Bananas, Pineapples, And Tomatoes. "
Edit: A good example how threads may wander away.

 

[Progesterone]

I have been trying between 10-18 drops of oxidial for the past 8 weeks. Should I be concerned about the MAO inhibiting effect?

Can you comment on the effects please?

 

[jenjls]

Can you comment on the effects please?

I take it mainly with my meals ( on wrists) and feel warm doing so. Main aim is to keep metabolism high.

It also has an “anti stress” effect for me. I feel calmer after taking some, on wrists again, within a few minutes.

 

[ddjd]

This study is saying benzoic acid will raise ALT liver enzymes
Article Detail - International Journal of Advanced Research

 

[haidut]

This study is saying benzoic acid will raise ALT liver enzymes
Article Detail - International Journal of Advanced Research

Did you read the study? The doses used were absolutely massive and not even remotely close to what is in Oxidal.
"...All animals were liberally accessed to standard diet and tab water. One group was put as control. The remainder 3 groups, received 5, 1000 and 2000 mg/kg b.w of benzoic acid, once daily. Animal’s weight was taken once weekly. Ingested doses were justified according to (Bedford and Clarke, 1972), and (Wibbertmann et al., 2000). In short - term studies with rats, high doses (>1800 mg/kg b.w) of (benzoic acid/sodium benzoate) were administered over 5 - 10 days (Wibbertman et al., 2000). Blood sampling was done initially, on the 14th day and on the 28th day. Blood samples were taken from rats' eyes using capillary tubes, into suitable labeled blood containers, then centrifuged at 30000 rpm then serum was kept at 5◦ C. By the 28th day. All animals were sacrificed by the end of the experiment, and then liver organs were taken, labeled then kept in 10% formal/saline solution. Photomicrographs were prepared according to method described by (Bancroft and Gamble, 2002)."

The doses at which toxic effects were seen correspond to 15g+ daily in humans. Aspirin, which is also a benzoic acid derivative, can also raise ALT in doses of 3g+ daily and the effects is due to uncoupling of respiration. The study also goes on to say that NOAEL for benzoic acid is in the range of 500mg/kg daily for rats, which is a HED of 6g-7.5g daily.
"...as expected, and as far as it is possible to conclude with the limited database, toxic effects and effect levels seem to be similar for both compounds. A preliminary NO (A) EL of about 500 mg/kg body weight per day (the highest dose tested) may be derived based on a limited four-generation study (Kieckebusch
and Lang, 1960). This is supported by two short-term studies in which no adverse effects were observed at the highest tested dose levels of 647–825 mg/kg body weight per day (Kreis et al., 1967; Bio-Fax, 1973) and by the fact that no serious side effects have been reported after therapeutic use of sodium benzoate at a dose level of 250–500mg/kg body weight per day in humans, although occasionally anorexia and vomiting were observed."

How is this comparable to the 0.4 milligram of benzoic acid in a drop of Oxidal - i.e. a dose ~15,000 times lower than the suggested safe limit (NOAEL)?

 

[ddjd]

Did you read the study? The doses used were absolutely massive and not even remotely close to what is in Oxidal.
"...All animals were liberally accessed to standard diet and tab water. One group was put as control. The remainder 3 groups, received 5, 1000 and 2000 mg/kg b.w of benzoic acid, once daily. Animal’s weight was taken once weekly. Ingested doses were justified according to (Bedford and Clarke, 1972), and (Wibbertmann et al., 2000). In short - term studies with rats, high doses (>1800 mg/kg b.w) of (benzoic acid/sodium benzoate) were administered over 5 - 10 days (Wibbertman et al., 2000). Blood sampling was done initially, on the 14th day and on the 28th day. Blood samples were taken from rats' eyes using capillary tubes, into suitable labeled blood containers, then centrifuged at 30000 rpm then serum was kept at 5◦ C. By the 28th day. All animals were sacrificed by the end of the experiment, and then liver organs were taken, labeled then kept in 10% formal/saline solution. Photomicrographs were prepared according to method described by (Bancroft and Gamble, 2002)."

The doses at which toxic effects were seen correspond to 15g+ daily in humans. Aspirin, which is also a benzoic acid derivative, can also raise ALT in doses of 3g+ daily and the effects is due to uncoupling of respiration. The study also goes on to say that NOAEL for benzoic acid is in the range of 500mg/kg daily for rats, which is a HED of 6g-7.5g daily.
"...as expected, and as far as it is possible to conclude with the limited database, toxic effects and effect levels seem to be similar for both compounds. A preliminary NO (A) EL of about 500 mg/kg body weight per day (the highest dose tested) may be derived based on a limited four-generation study (Kieckebusch
and Lang, 1960). This is supported by two short-term studies in which no adverse effects were observed at the highest tested dose levels of 647–825 mg/kg body weight per day (Kreis et al., 1967; Bio-Fax, 1973) and by the fact that no serious side effects have been reported after therapeutic use of sodium benzoate at a dose level of 250–500mg/kg body weight per day in humans, although occasionally anorexia and vomiting were observed."

How is this comparable to the 0.4 milligram of benzoic acid in a drop of Oxidal - i.e. a dose ~15,000 times lower than the suggested safe limit (NOAEL)?

sorry. I was only prompting a discussion of Benzoic acid, not directly comparing it to Oxidal. But you're right, probably should have been in a separate thread!

 

[haidut]

sorry. I was only prompting a discussion of Benzoic acid, not directly comparing it to Oxidal. But you're right, probably should have been in a separate thread!

No worries, I was not trying to pick up a fight Sometimes I wonder why toxicity studies use such doses. I mean, who would ever get exposed to such levels of benzoic acid unless they try to kill themselves.

 

[TreasureVibe]

Is this study on methylene blue accurate?

A mice study showing it lowered natural killer T-cells: Methylene Blue Selectively Inhibits B Cell Development and E2A Activity

"Results MB decreased the proliferation of precursor B cell lines, REH, NALM-6 and BAF3-p185 cells compared to myeloid cell lines, CCRF and CMK. Similar effects of MB were also seen with normal B and myeloid progenitors as assayed by methylcellulose colony formation assays with murine bone marrow cells. Similarly, there is a significant decrease in peripheral B cells as compared to granulocytes, macrophages, T cells and NK cells when the mice were treated with 1000 μM of methylene blue in their drinking water as compared to those that remained untreated. MB caused apoptosis and decreased the S phase fraction of treated NALM-6 cells. In addition, we found that MB inhibited E2A activity using an E2A-specific luciferase reporter assay."

I don't really know how to interpret what they've wrote here so it might say something else as well..

@haidut