Nothing Boring About Boron

[Mossy]

17-Beta Estradiol and Estradiol are the same.
Curiously in the latter estradiol-lowering results - study Cortisol was elevated. Intriguing substance boron in that such a mundane substance so drastically changes steroid levels. It’s likely a massively hormetic substance , so efffcts of supplementing will depend on the physiological context of the individual.

Thanks for confirming.

Curious, indeed. So, if I get cortisol raising symptoms, maybe I could guess it’s lowering estradiol—which I’m not looking to do. And, maybe evidence that low estradiol goes hand-in-hand with high cortisol—being markers of a poor and/or imbalanced state.

I’ve already had some negative issues since starting boron, but have experimented with some other supps as well. So, I’ve stopped boron and will start with a clean slate in a few days, with no other supps. For the record, I’ve never had success with any supplements beyond very short-term/intermittent usage. I’m hoping, and maybe just being delusional, that boron will be the golden ticket for me some how.

 

[Mossy]

Thanks for confirming.

Curious, indeed. So, if I get cortisol raising symptoms, maybe I could guess it’s lowering estradiol—which I’m not looking to do. And, maybe evidence that low estradiol goes hand-in-hand with high cortisol—being markers of a poor and/or imbalanced state.

I’ve already had some negative issues since starting boron, but have experimented with some other supps as well. So, I’ve stopped boron and will start with a clean slate in a few days, with no other supps. For the record, I’ve never had success with any supplements beyond very short-term/intermittent usage. I’m hoping, and maybe just being delusional, that boron will be the golden ticket for me some how.

I can report back that my first dose of 3mg (since restarting) has produced some restlessness throughout the day and choppy sleep at night. I may attempt to counter this with magnesium or taurine.

 

[Steven Bussinger]

For posterity, Nathan Hatch has included promising information on Boron in the second edition of his book. He also discusses it on this podcast: Nathan Hatch on Thyroid Cancer and Mastering Metabolism

 

[Inaut]

For posterity, Nathan Hatch has included promising information on Boron in the second edition of his book. He also discusses it on this podcast: Nathan Hatch on Thyroid Cancer and Mastering Metabolism

Thanks for posting. I’ll give this a good listen tomorrow :). Briefly jumped to the acv baking soda bit as I have been reading much about acetate lately. @Obi-wan you will probably enjoy it as well. Starts at around 1:16:00.

Really like what he said about an acetate mineral supplement too. Thanks once again

 

[Frankdee20]

I can report back that my first dose of 3mg (since restarting) has produced some restlessness throughout the day and choppy sleep at night. I may attempt to counter this with magnesium or taurine.

I took 6 mg in the evening and was jacked up tossing and turning. Watched the video at the front of the thread, the doctor said it will keep you awake at night. It’s similar to silicon, which is a stimulant to the brain

 

[Captain_Coconut]

12 mg Boron brought back my libido which had been steadily declining since I started on the RP path.

 

[Frankdee20]

12 mg Boron brought back my libido which had been steadily declining since I started on the RP path.

Over what elapsation of time ?

 

[Mossy]

I took 6 mg in the evening and was jacked up tossing and turning. Watched the video at the front of the thread, the doctor said it will keep you awake at night. It’s similar to silicon, which is a stimulant to the brain

Yeah, I had to abort this boron testing because of that.

 

[Frankdee20]

Yeah, I had to abort this boron testing because of that.

Even if you took it in the early AM ?

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Over what elapsation of time ?

It took just 5 hours to feel it return. This was after my first dose of boron in about a year. I had hit a month stretch where I felt zero urge to have sex.

I am now taking 12mg daily. I take it before bed with magnesium, potassium, trimethylglycine, limonene, selenium, and melatonin, and sometimes zinc. I have been waking up with more energy now as well.

 

[Dave Clark]

It took just 5 hours to feel it return. This was after my first dose of boron in about a year. I had hit a month stretch where I felt zero urge to have sex.

I am now taking 12mg daily. I take it before bed with magnesium, potassium, trimethylglycine, limonene, selenium, and melatonin, and sometimes zinc. I have been waking up with more energy now as well.

Isn't TMG supposed to be energizing? Doeen't it affect your sleep?

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Isn't TMG supposed to be energizing? Doeen't it affect your sleep?

It feels pretty neutral as far as being sedative or stimulating. It has a pretty long half life so timing is not particularly important. I have taken during the day before and had improved stamina with it. I find it pairs best with magnesium, it feels like it helps with its assimilation.

 

[Frankdee20]

I have been taking the Boron Liquid (supplying citrate, and boric acid) from Concentrace about 1 week now. Sometimes I do the 3MG, sometimes 6, and rarely 12. The three human studies we do have showed various dosages during various lengths of supplementation to yield various effect. Only one, over the course of 4 months, showed elevated Estrogen. Who the hell really knows unless you run a baseline before and after, if it will yield results. I never understood the AMAZON reviews when people claim a T booster does not work, or does work based on subjectivity. Regardless, I will not be taking this every day for months like I would Magnesium. I will keep at it, and retest my T levels again soon. July 2018 showed increased Free T, but unchanged Total T with whatever I was doing. This is my first crack at Boron, and if it does not help much, I will try a good Tribulus or Tongkhat or DHEA. At least we know DHEA is purported to work.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

I have been taking the Boron Liquid (supplying citrate, and boric acid) from Concentrace about 1 week now. Sometimes I do the 3MG, sometimes 6, and rarely 12. The three human studies we do have showed various dosages during various lengths of supplementation to yield various effect. Only one, over the course of 4 months, showed elevated Estrogen. Who the hell really knows unless you run a baseline before and after, if it will yield results. I never understood the AMAZON reviews when people claim a T booster does not work, or does work based on subjectivity. Regardless, I will not be taking this every day for months like I would Magnesium. I will keep at it, and retest my T levels again soon. July 2018 showed increased Free T, but unchanged Total T with whatever I was doing. This is my first crack at Boron, and if it does not help much, I will try a good Tribulus or Tongkhat or DHEA. At least we know DHEA is purported to work.

I have taken boron off and on for many years. This past year I started on dhea for the first time, but was not taking boron. I have been taking 5mg dhea daily now for almost a year. I was not feeling like it was doing much for me. Since adding the daily boron, the dhea now feels more effective. I think they compliment eachother nicely. I have self diagnosed myself as being low estrogen, high t, high shbg. I think boron lowers shbg to more optimal levels and helps bring up estrogen if you are low. I am pretty sure my daily aspirin habit, along with all the other anti-aromatase peaty things crashed my estrogen, thus zero sex drive and aching /popping joints.

 

[Frankdee20]

I have taken boron off and on for many years. This past year I started on dhea for the first time, but was not taking boron. I have been taking 5mg dhea daily now for almost a year. I was not feeling like it was doing much for me. Since adding the daily boron, the dhea now feels more effective. I think they compliment eachother nicely. I have self diagnosed myself as being low estrogen, high t, high shbg. I think boron lowers shbg to more optimal levels and helps bring up estrogen if you are low. I am pretty sure my daily aspirin habit, along with all the other anti-aromatase peaty things crashed my estrogen, thus zero sex drive and aching /popping joints.

Boron assists in the 'Dihyro' conversion of hormones like Test to DHT, and E1 to E3. All I know is I can not sleep well at night lately, and can literally will myself to get an erection. Like I have nothing better to do than think about sex, not just images, but like me being an animal with people I know LOL.

 

[Mossy]

Even if you took it in the early AM ?

Yes, but I’m hyper sensitive to most supplements.

 

[Inaut]

dusting off an old correspondence with our long missed pal @Travis.


"Boron does seem to help retain calcium, but I think this has more to do with retention than with absorption. I think boron stops the progression of calcium loss from the bones, leading to an apparent mean increase in 'calcium retention.' While its true that boron can be found in bones, it has more affinity for carbohydrates and fluorine ions (F⁻) than anything. Let me explain:

Boron exists in aqueous solution primarily as boric acid, outnumbering the deprotonated borate about 68∶1 at pH 7.4.

Now this is not a strong acid at all, much weaker than ascorbic and lactic acids. This is entirely safe to consume throughout the milligram range, only leading to toxicity as one approached double-digit gram-sized doses. Sodium borate actually has a higher LD₅₀ than sodium chloride, by mass, and it had been freely used as a preservative in all foods besides milk between the years c. 1870–1950.

[1] Nielsen, F. H. "The saga of boron in food: from a banished food preservative to a beneficial nutrient for humans." Current topics in plant biochemistry and physiology (1991)

Boric acid's most characteristic interactions are with cis-diols and fluoride, forming and molecules such as boron trifluoride and complexes like fructoborate (shown below). Besides its well-known role in reversing and preventing arthritis, borates are also known as partial antidotes to fluoride (F⁻).

The bone loss observed in rheumatoid arthritis is officially stated as being immunological in nature, and rheumatoid arthritis is officially considered an 'autoimmune disease.' This officially makes the arthritic bone loss observed in arthritis a result of an autoimmunological mechanism, somewhat like a 'confused immune system attacking the joints.' I mostly disagree with these ideas, yet instead maintain that rheumatoid arthritis is characterized by an intentional attack against synovial fungi. This is supported by observations such as: (1) the known propensity of fungi for joints; (2) the 'die-off' reaction seen in the majority of arthritic patients after taking borates; (3) the well-established inhibition of fungi at physiologically-achievable borate concentrations; and (4) the strong correlations between rheumatoid arthritis and YKL-40, a chitin-binding protein released by neutrophils and macrophages. Since mammals don't make chitin—e.g. only shellfish, yeast, fungi, and insects do—then specific chitinase enzymes and chitin-binding proteins released by immune cells can only rightly be seen as immunological defenses against yeast & fungi.

[1] Cuellar, M. "Fungal arthritis." Annals of the rheumatic diseases (1992)

[2] Newnham, E. R. "Supplement to the art of getting well boron and arthritis." The arthritis Trust of America (1994)

[3] Pointer, B. "Boric acid destabilizes the hyphal cytoskeleton and inhibits invasive growth of Candida albicans." Yeast (2015)

[4] Johansen, J. S. "A new biochemical marker for joint injury. Analysis of YKL-40 in serum and synovial fluid." Rheumatology (1993)

Assuming Dr. Newnham is correct in his observations—i.e. that 70% of arthritic patients taking boron initially experience a 'herxheimer reaction'—than a person could assume that fungi in synovial fluid is far more prevalent than commonly assumed. I do take this view, and can see no other reason for an initial increase in joint pain before the indefinite remission. Proceeding under this view, the bone loss observed in rheumatoid arthritis can be explained by two enzymes: (1) neutrophil NADPH oxidase and (2) Aspergillus carbonic anhydrase. Both of these enzymes have acidic protons (H⁺) as products, and carbonic anhydrase II is known as the bone-dissolving enzyme of osteoclasts.

[1] Borregaard, N. "Proton secretion by stimulated neutrophils. Significance of hexose monophosphate shunt activity as source of electrons and protons for the respiratory burst." The Journal of clinical investigation (1984)

[2] Tobal, J. "Role of carbonic anhydrases in pathogenic micro-organisms: a focus on Aspergillus fumigatus." Journal of medical microbiology (2014)

Stopping calcium loss from the bones then becomes synonymous with destroying fungi, in many cases, and nothing does this better and safer than borates. This works on a more fundamental level than even potassium iodide—which needs neutrophil or eosinophil myeloperoxidase to become hypoiodite (IO⁻) first—because boric acid appears to directly crosslink chitin. Although it can react with the host's monosaccharides and polysaccharides, to an extent, it cannot crosslink them to a significant degree due their extensive spacing and different bonding arrangements. I maintain that borates crosslink both chitin and cellulose, reliably, which are two β-linked polysaccharides arranged in sheets.

Chemical engineers have crosslinked boric acid with chitosan, or deacetylated chitin, at standard temperature and pH. Cellulose can be similarly crosslinked by boric acid, as evidenced by the changes it induces on cotton textiles and wood. These facts explaining why borax is found in the laundry aisle, and also why it's sold commercially as a fire retardant for cellulosic materials.

The use of borax as as insecticide can be explained by the presence of chitin in the intestinal tract of cockroaches, an observation known since the 1920s. A 2% boric acid solution can dissolve the intestines of the German cockroach, concentrations completely innocuous to bacteria and mammals. I personally have consumed 20 ounces of supersaturated borax water, equating to a 3% concentration of boric acid.

[1] Sricharussin, W. "Effect of boric acid and BTCA on tensile strength loss of finished cotton fabrics." Textile Research Journal (2004)

[2] Kawamoto, H. "Inhibition of acid-catalyzed depolymerization of cellulose with boric acid in non-aqueous acidic media." Carbohydrate research (2008)

[3] Saita, K. "Preparation and characterization of dispersible chitosan particles with borate crosslinking and their antimicrobial and antifungal activity." Carbohydrate research (2012)

[4] Hirata, T. "Thermal analysis of cellulose treated with boric acid or ammonium phosphate in varied oxygen atmospheres." Journal of applied polymer science (1987)

[5] Ling, Z. "Boric acid-mediated B, N-codoped chitosan-derived porous carbons with a high surface area and greatly improved supercapacitor performance." Nanoscale (2015)

[6] Campbell, F. L. "The detection and estimation of insect chitin; and the irrelation of “chitinization” to hardness and pigmentation of the cuticula of the American cockroach, Periplaneta americana L." Annals of the Entomological Society of America (1929)

[7] Cochran, D. G. "Toxic effects of boric acid on the German cockroach." Experientia (1995)

[8] Habes, D. "Boric acid toxicity to the German cockroach, Blattella germanica: Alterations in midgut structure, and acetylcholinesterase and glutathione S-transferase activity." Pesticide Biochemistry and Physiology (2006)

Every known indication of borates are to modify materials containing either chitin or cellulose—e.g. wood, paper, cotton, insects, fungi, yeast—two sheetlike β-polysaccharides it is assumed to reliably crosslink. Doctor Newnham's patients testify that the most pronounced effect of borates is antifungal in nature, an effect they've been shown to exert in vitro on two dimorphic fungal species. Monomorphs such as Aspergillus could be presumed to be even more sensitive, being inherently higher in chitin and not having a round yeast form to default to.

[1] Pointer, B. "Boric acid destabilizes the hyphal cytoskeleton and inhibits invasive growth of Candida albicans." Yeast (2015)

[2] Schmidt, M. "Boric acid disturbs cell wall synthesis in Saccharomyces cerevisiae." International journal of microbiology (2010)

[3] Bowen, J. "Nonessentiality of boron in fungi and the nature of its toxicity." Plant physiology (1966)

In the absence of invasive yeast and fungal forms, boron can still be seen as beneficial—both for its strengthening effect and ability to inhibit future colonization. Borates are freely incorporated into bone where it can be found in concentrations exceeding most bodily fluids and tissues; synovial tissue is an ultrafiltrate of plasma, and boron concentrations between the two would be proportional. The high concentrations found in urine exemplify the ease in which any excess is eliminated.

As a result of rat feeding studies, borate appears to slightly increase bone compressive strength while slightly decreasing shear strength. Yet since the gain in compressibility exceeds the loss of shear strength, so you could see borate as exerting a net positive benefit. Moreover: bones are constructed to support body weight by compression, with shear strength coming into play only during trauma.

[1] Chapin, R. "The effects of dietary boron on bone strength in rats." Toxicological Sciences (1997)

[2] Ward, N. I. "The determination of boron in biological materials by neutron irradiation and prompt gamma-ray spectrometry." Journal of Radioanalytical and Nuclear Chemistry (1987)

[3] McCoy, H. "Relation of boron to the composition and mechanical properties of bone." Environmental health perspectives (1994)

Although boron does have idiosyncratic lubricative properties, I assume that fungal arthritis is common enough in America that its antifungal effect should be seen as primary. Borates are known to inhibit enzymes, yet the concentrations needed are unphysiological in all cases. Although boric acid may bind some human polysaccharides it certainly does not bind them all, for instance: boric acid does not react with hyaluronic acid, the polysaccharide component of synovial fluid responsible for lubrication. Although this contains N-acetylglucosamine, like chitin, it is α-linked and not β-linked in this case. Hyaluronic acid also alternates with glucuronic acid, while chitin is composed of all N-acetylglucosamine. This monosaccharide is a powerful growth factor for yeast and fungi, perhaps not surprising when considering the composition of chitin.

'The requirement for specific groupings is emphasized by the fact that hyaluronic acid, which is composed of N-acetyl-D-glucosamine and D-glucuronic acid, did not react with borate.' ―Zittle (1951)

Boric acid could have some effects on the cell membrane, perhaps by: (1) increasing the ζ-potential after binding to polysaccharides, (2) increasing glucose flux by forming borate–sugar complexes, or (3) increasing ion flux via increasing membrane volume or solubility towards water. Borates also have some unique interactions with leucyl-tRNA, perhaps what could be underlying its ability to increase steroid hormones in some studies. Yet all-in-all: its effects appear relatively mild in realistic concentrations, certainly beneficial in the milligram range while providing no inherent toxicity. I personally am shooting for well-boronated bones, and have been drinking gram amounts daily. A supersaturated solution of borax at 68 °F contains 4.71 grams per litre, which equates to 3.05 grams of soluble boric acid and 280 milligrams of sodium. This is certainly not something to be afraid of, and if joints hurt after taking it you can probably infer there is fungi present. Most people take milligram sized doses, and these are available in capsule form."

Also, i asked about potential estrogenic effects of boron/borax. Here's his response:

"It would increase testosterone if anything, just as in these studies below:

Ferrando, A. "The effect of boron supplementation on lean body mass, plasma testosterone levels, and strength in male bodybuilders." International journal of sport nutrition (1993)

Green, N. "Plasma boron and the effects of boron supplementation in males." Environmental health perspectives (1994)

In females, it increases their sex hormone—estrogen. However: even in females it also increases testosterone by a proportional amount:

Nielsen, F. "Effect of dietary boron on mineral, estrogen, and testosterone metabolism in postmenopausal women." The FASEB journal (1987)

This is not surprising since it slightly increases cholesterol in both sexes, perhaps by interacting with the mTOR pathway as a leucine mimetic:

Scorei, R. "A Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Pilot Study to Evaluate the Effect of Calcium Fructoborate on Systemic Inflammation and Dyslipidemia Markers for Middle-Aged People with Primary Osteoarthritis." Biological Trace Element Research (2011)

Hu, Q. "Discovery of a potent benzoxaborole-based anti-pneumococcal agent targeting leucyl-tRNA synthetase." Scientific reports (2013)

Boric acid, borate, fructoborate, and benzoxaboroles cannot be considered selectively estrogenic when the increase both sex steroids proportionally. These are sex-neutral compounds, likely stimulators of de novo steroid synthesis. I suppose boron can be considered 'highly estrogenic' should a person focus entirely on female studies determining only estradiol, remaining completely oblivious to the corresponding cholesterol and testosterone increases observed in both males and females. Since boron compounds don't favor one sex hormone over the other, it would be far more appropriate simply to consider them 'steroidogenic' in high doses."


He gave me a couple of gems while he was around :)

 

[Ron J]

@Inaut "Stopping calcium loss from the bones then becomes synonymous with destroying fungi, in many cases, and nothing does this better and safer than borates. "
Did he ever mention how much boron for those effects?

 

[Inaut]

Not that I can recall. I remember him telling me about his super saturated solution of borax.

 

[Mossy]

Not that I can recall. I remember him telling me about his super saturated solution of borax.

Are you still doing the 1/4 tsp Borax in 1 liter liquid? (If I remember correctly).