Negative Reactions From Thyroid Medication. What Does It Mean

[Zachs]

Hey guys. Back story, I have had slightly elevated TSH ever sense my low carb days more than 4 years ago. At the highest it was around 6, lowest is around 3. According to most sources these are not optimal numbers and I have definitely suffered low thyroid symptoms for most the last 4 years. My t4 and t3 numbers are all within range, my rt3 has never been tested. My doc has always been Resistant to prescribing thyroid but one way or another I have tried synthroid (synthetic t4), cynomel (synthetic t3) and recently armour (natural t4/t3). In all cases the results have been the same, I get an immediate and pronounced reaction, my throat gets sore, my heartbeat becomes fast and irratic and I get sweaty.

I never have stayed on any for more than a few doses because the symptoms are very unpleasent. Does anyone know what is happening here?

 

[Anonymous]

Means you need to use meds to supress stress hormones. Cypro or amitriptyline

 

[sweetpeat]

Thyroid supps can increase your sensitivity to adrenaline and can reveal a stressed state. Have you tried lowering the dose and/or taking it with food? Also, do you know your cholesterol level? Peat says not to start thyroid supps if cholesterol is too low.

If you search the forum, you can find other discussions on reducing the adrenaline response. Could be issues with cortisol, serotonin, etc. Getting some more lab work, if it’s affordable for you, could help you pinpoint the issue more quickly.

 

[Anonymous]

Thyroid supps can increase your sensitivity to adrenaline and can reveal a stressed state. Have you tried lowering the dose and/or taking it with food? Also, do you know your cholesterol level? Peat says not to start thyroid supps if cholesterol is too low.

If you search the forum, you can find other discussions on reducing the adrenaline response. Could be issues with cortisol, serotonin, etc. Getting some more lab work, if it’s affordable for you, could help you pinpoint the issue more quickly.

Good points. Definitely would check cholesterol it should be over 200. I think haidut mentioned that cypro boosts cholesterol so that would be something to consider.

 

[Zachs]

It would be weird of it was stress since I'm in a pretty great state right now, physically and mentally. I can drink coffee just fine where as in the past it would make me jittery, the thyroid is a lot like that. But the sore throat makes me think it's directly thyroid related. Could it be reverse t3? I'm still unclear about effective doses.

To the above question, I have never taken more than a half grain of armour at a time and t3 is always in the 5mcg range.

 

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't concern yourself with reverse t3. In my experience it doesn't tell you much. Even when my reverse t3 was "cleared" I still didn't feel well.

Sometimes using salt like 3-5 grams per day parachuted chased with orange juice can help cut off adrenaline. That's what d roddy told me when I had those issues. Another possibility is that you just don't need thyroid. It may sound clique but listen to your heart and try and determine if your body wants thyroid hormone. When I crave coffee I respond wonderfully. But when I drink it because I think I just need it, I react poorly. But once again the reverse t3 thing is pretty useless. Won't be a problem in the 1-2 grain range. I got high reverse t3 taking like 8-10 grains lol. But it came down extremely quickly with Cytomel yet I felt pretty much the same

Focus on gut health. Look for clues like bloating hemorrhoids mucus and other signs of inflammation. Sensitive intestine will go hand in hand with adrenaline symptoms

 

[Greg says]

http://eastwesthealing.com/thyroid-medi ... t-working/

 

[sweetpeat]

I think you can be in stress without necessarily feeling “stressed out”, if that makes any sense. In other words, you could have some imbalance in your body that you weren’t consciously aware of until it was revealed when you attempted the thyroid supps.

Here are a couple of quotes from Peat on reverse t3:
“The brain concentrates T3 from the serum, and may have a concentration 6 times higher than the serum (Goumaz, et al., 1987), and it can achieve a higher concentration of T3 than T4. It takes up and concentrates T3, while tending to expel T4. Reverse T3 (rT3) doesn't have much ability to enter the brain, but increased T4 can cause it to be produced in the brain.”

And:
“Cortisol, for example, inhibits the conversion of T4 to T3, which is responsible for the respiratory production of energy and carbon dioxide. Adrenaline, besides leading to increased production of cortisol, is lipolytic, releasing the fatty acids which, if they are polyunsaturated, inhibit the production and transport of thyroid hormone, and also interfere directly with the respiratory functions of the mitochondria. Adrenaline decreases the conversion to T4 to T3, and increases the formation of the antagonistic reverse T3.”

So according to these quotes, two things that can contribute to reverse t3 are either:

1) too much (or the wrong ratio) thyroid hormones. You said your t4 and t3 levels were pretty good. Maybe you don’t need the supps like JRMoney15 said. Or maybe you need a much smaller dose. Peat generally recommends 1or 2 mcg t3 at a time as a starting dose. Half a grain of armour or 5 mcg straight t3 all at once could be too much for you at this time.

or 2) cortisol and adrenaline (stress). Were you fasting for the lab work? Even that little bit of stress can cause an elevated TSH. But even if you weren’t fasting, I think the idea of there being some kind of stressor affecting you is worth checking out.

 

[Zachs]

Interesting thoughts, thanks guys. Sweetpeat, how could one possibly dose 1-2mcg accurately?

I'm done with messing with medications, supplements and other isolated substances. I'm feeling awesome with just eliminating starch and eating more nutrient dense foods like liver and shellfish. Reading Weston Price's book was very eye opening for me. Really puts in perspective how far away our society is from optimal human expression. Price saw it way back in the 30s, wonder what he'd think today, haha.

 

[sweetpeat]

Interesting thoughts, thanks guys. Sweetpeat, how could one possibly dose 1-2mcg accurately?

I have a pair of nail clippers that I use only for cutting my thyroid supps. I chop up my cynomel tablets into fourths (which would be about 6 mcg each) then chop those into 3-6 pieces. It probably sounds rather painstaking and I doubt it’s completely accurate. But it works for me for now. I generally get a better response metabolism-wise with smaller doses like these.

It does sound like you are doing great without the supps. Maybe given some more time, your hypothyroid symptoms will resolve with the things you are doing. We sometimes get impatient and try to “help” things along when all we really need to do is give our body some time. And I’m talking about myself here too. :)

 

[jimmyquick]

Uhhh, Cypro just seems to be the go to answer for everything now.

Zachs, weren't you taking a little t3 a while back with no issues? I know when I have messaged you before and you were doing / feeling quite well with no stress and tons of energy. Are you just taking thyroid for the high TSH but no other hypo symptoms?

I only ask because the symptoms you are describing are the exact same I get when I know im taking too much thyroid. Especially the sore throat, thats a clear cut sign for me to back off my does.

Im just thinking that perhaps you just don't need it at all and you body is already producing adequate levels regards of a TSH of 3 or whatever. Im also starting to question how accurate the test is knowing how fast TSH can swing in a daily / weekly bases.

Sweetpeat is dead on with fluctuating TSH levels.(I think someone else has mentioned this in another thread as well) I can confirm this with blood work, Ive had TSH tested on three different days (once every other day) during one week (not cheap!) and each time it was 1-3 levels different so might want to keep that in mind. One day I didn't fast at my TSH was under one, another time the lab reported above 4 so keep that in mind.

I think your better off using the pulse temp and how you feel levels when it comes to dosing. Just wanted to give you my 2 cents, since you have help med so much getting over VLC. Big thanks btw!

 

[tara]

Sweetpeat is dead on with fluctuating TSH levels.(I think someone else has mentioned this in another thread as well) I can confirm this with blood work, Ive had TSH tested on three different days (once every other day) during one week (not cheap!) and each time it was 1-3 levels different so might want to keep that in mind. One day I didn't fast at my TSH was under one, another time the lab reported above 4 so keep that in mind.

Wow!
Is that much variation typical for most people? Is the TSH test worth anything?

 

[Zachs]

Jimmy, thanks for that. Yea I can take t3 only with basically no reaction at all, it was only with t4 and armour that I got the throat thing and heart Palps. I worked up to 25mcg t3 once and still didn't feel anything.

Anyway, you might be right that my tsh doesn't mean much. Yea I havnt had real hypo symptoms in a long while but my elevated tsh has always bothered me and I wanted to see what it was like at 1 or lower because you never really know what better feels like until you're there. Anyway, I'm giving it up in favor of more organ meats and higher quality dairy.

 

[narouz]

Just to note some Peat 101's:

He says to go by signs--like pulse and temp and Achilles reflex--rather than TSH.
He thinks TSH is helpful to have as a part of the puzzle,
but to rely upon signs more.
And just how you feel.
That said, he does like to see TSH down around zero, generally.

I've had palpitations from either T4 or T3 or both,
hard to tell because I usually take them together.
I've leaned toward blaming T3 because it is the more instant form
and often I would get the palps pretty soon after a dose of T4/T3
and also soon after straight T3.
I haven't taken straight T4 for a long time, so...haven't tested that.

About the widely varying TSH readings over different days...
Yeah, I 've questioned the reliability of that test
and particularly the way one is tested--fasting, recently dosed, stopped dosing, etc.

Peat said a dose of T4 before bed will help suppress the rise of stress hormones.
That sounds strange to me, but...I'm pretty sure that's what he said.
Not T3.
It was also interesting to hear him sortuv separate the two forms
and speak about their separate properties.
He does seem to describe T4 as the form which is anti-inflammatory.

 

[Anonymous]

http://eastwesthealing.com/thyroid-medication-not-working/

I think he is basically saying if you aren't eating enough calories then you are making things worse by taking thyroid.

 

[Zachs]

what do you guys take and the doses and do you use it for actual hypo or just supplementing?

 

[narouz]

I'm officially hypothyroid.
When diagnosed I was given straight synthetic T4 only, Synthroid, 200mg.
The doc was explicit: you will be on this for life.

Went to another doc, he said "over-prescribed."
Wanted to keep me on T4 only but reduce dosage a lot.
I said I wanted NDT.
He prescribed 2&1/2 grains NDT.

That was like maybe almost 10 years ago.
I've tried many different brands and combinations over the years.

But I am currently taking 2&1/2 grains NDT.

The first time, years ago, when I took not just T4 but T4/T3...it was pretty intense.
I was a little scared through it.
But I got used to it in a few days or a week or two.

 

[jimmyquick]

Sweetpeat is dead on with fluctuating TSH levels.(I think someone else has mentioned this in another thread as well) I can confirm this with blood work, Ive had TSH tested on three different days (once every other day) during one week (not cheap!) and each time it was 1-3 levels different so might want to keep that in mind. One day I didn't fast at my TSH was under one, another time the lab reported above 4 so keep that in mind.

Wow!
Is that much variation typical for most people? Is the TSH test worth anything?

I am not so sure. I want to say not and that it was probably just a fluke. On the day I didnt fast I used a different lab so that could possible explain something as well. Eating probably really screwed it up but I wanted to see what would happen. Im not sure how fast TSH can change or reacts. For the two days I did not fast and I used Labcorp and the levels were much closer. One was low 4 an the other was high 3 so that was pretty close. This was one week apart.

But I think that also goes to show you that if you go to the doctor and they see a "in range" TSH then thats the end of they hypo discussion and they are less likely to test that again. But if TSH can change that quickly and you feel like crap that its prob not the best way doctors should be diagnosing you at all! Im really starting to like the temp/pulse/energy level way instead of TSH.

Soon im going to do this again and get 3 labs drawn (like monday, wed, friday) from labcorp and lets see how big of a difference we get this time. I will even drive to three different locations. Im not sure yet if I want to eat same things for the whole week or really change my diet to see if that can illicit these big TSH changes.

 

[jimmyquick]

what do you guys take and the doses and do you use it for actual hypo or just supplementing?

I was taking NDT Thryro -Gold . But this is when I was messaging you about your diet and recovering my low carb crap as I literally couldn't get up off the couch. I dont take anything anymore. The t3/t4 combo now gives me the same problems you describe which means (I think) I no longer need it as my temps are now 98.6 + Ironically I still struggle with energy problems so I keep trying it now and then but it makes me feel weird.

I havent tried just t3 yet and would like to see if that will help.

Its funny, when I was taking t4/t3 NDT for about 2 months I had no problems (up to 4 grains) , but as I got better (improved digestion, a little more energy, better mood) my throat starting to tickle and i started feeling weird so I starting backing off. Now I dont take anything. I guess its time for some new labs to see what my TSH is now without but I feel almost back to 100% health. Mainly eating the diet you suggested to me so thank you for that!

 

[sweetpeat]

Wow!
Is that much variation typical for most people? Is the TSH test worth anything?

I think if you’re using the TSH as a diagnostic tool, it’s probably important to be consistent in how you get the lab work done (fasting/not fasting, time of day, etc.). I recently had my worst TSH ever (5.2) when I had some fasting labs done. Compare that with my TSH from almost a year ago taken non-fasting in the mid-afternoon: 0.62. Yet overall, I feel better now (better pulse, temps, etc.) than I did then. This is what drove me to seek out answers and eventually led me to Peat – my doctor couldn’t explain how I could have such “normal” lab work and still feel so awful. Most days back then I couldn’t even drive a car because the brain fog and fatigue were so severe, but my doctor wouldn’t consider the idea that I was still hypothyroid.

So, while TSH can be a tool to help determine treatment, it’s not necessarily the best tool. Here are some quotes from Peat from his article “TSH, temperature, pulse rate, and other indicators in hypothyroidism”:

“Each of the indicators of thyroid function can be useful, but has to be interpreted in relation to the physiological state.
Increasingly, TSH (the pituitary thyroid stimulating hormone) has been treated as if it meant something independently; however, it can be brought down into the normal range, or lower, by substances other than the thyroid hormones.
…TSH tests should be given only moderate weight in interpreting thyroid function.
The metabolic rate is very closely related to thyroid hormone function, but defining it and measuring it have to be done with awareness of its complexity.”