MitoLipin - Liquid Saturated Phosphatidylcholine (PC) Mix

[Zpol]

Ok, so to be clear... we all understand that:
- Phosphatidylcholine, in some people, can result in the formation of trimethylamine N-oxide (aka TMAO).
-> TMAO is an endotoxin that forms when certain gut microbes (I'm not sure which strains) consume foods containing the choline group of the PC lipid.
-> Presence of TMAO is highly correlated to heart disease.
-> One way to know if gut microbiota are forming this TMAO, is if one develops a fishy smell when consuming PC.
-> Rats have reported a fishy smell when using MitoLipin, a PC supplement
-> The fishy smell in MitoLipin is from the Vitamin E which is used as a solvent
-> MitoLipin does not produce TMAO in those who have the aforementioned gut microbes
= MitoLipin does not contribute to the formation of TMAO, and is therefore safe for rats who have heart disease.

Am I correct in this logic?

 

[ddjd]

Ok, so to be clear... we all understand that:
- Phosphatidylcholine, in some people, can result in the formation of trimethylamine N-oxide (aka TMAO).
-> TMAO is an endotoxin that forms when certain gut microbes (I'm not sure which strains) consume foods containing the choline group of the PC lipid.
-> Presence of TMAO is highly correlated to heart disease.
-> One way to know if gut microbiota are forming this TMAO, is if one develops a fishy smell when consuming PC.
-> Rats have reported a fishy smell when using MitoLipin, a PC supplement
-> The fishy smell in MitoLipin is from the Vitamin E which is used as a solvent
-> MitoLipin does not produce TMAO in those who have the aforementioned gut microbes
= MitoLipin does not contribute to the formation of TMAO, and is therefore safe for rats who have heart disease.

Am I correct in this logic?

is the same TMAO issue correct for choline bitatrate or other non fat based forms of choline?

 

[ddjd]

@haidut any chance of getting MitoLipin in a non-vitamin E base?

 

[haidut]

Did you change the composition in the end? Sorry I've still got 15 pages of posts to get through!

It still used vitamin E. We tried a few different formulations but it always solidified unless there is a significant percentage of vitamin E in it. So, until we find another solvent it looks like it will be using vitamin E.

 

[Zpol]

is the same TMAO issue correct for choline bitatrate or other non fat based forms of choline?

I haven't researched other types of choline in depth yet, but this article might be useful to you in directing your own research (warning; It is actually an add, but I am in not way endorsing the product)...
Choline Citrate is Safe… Here’s what you need to know

Personally, I'm going with the MitoLipin based on my above logic, I'm skipping choline supps for now, just sticking with 2 eggs per day and some dessicated liver.

 

[haidut]

#2 on the healing properties of mitolipin, my rat was preparing for a saturday on the couch after too much lifting on friday (lower back hurt, legs sore) - well not sure why, but 20 drops mitolipin patched that right up :O rat says it feels a bit like prog or 5adhp, also in line with what others have reported

Excellent, thanks for the feedback!

 

[ddjd]

I haven't researched other types of choline in depth yet, but this article might be useful to you in directing your own research (warning; It is actually an add, but I am in not way endorsing the product)...
Choline Citrate is Safe… Here’s what you need to know

Personally, I'm going with the MitoLipin based on my above logic, I'm skipping choline supps for now, just sticking with 2 eggs per day and some dessicated liver.

Thanks for this. Do you believe the TMAO thing, sounds like it would be a great marketing ploy. Create a problem, offer a solution.....

But maybe it is a real issue. I'll look into it. Thanks

 

[ddjd]

Yup, I noticed the same thing last night. I have been applying a decent amount to my face though, maybe too much before bed. It kind of reminds me of the feeling from when I used to take alpha GPC.

What feeling did you get from alpha GPC?

 

[Baleia]

Finally, I would like note that apparent ability of saturated PC to enhance topical absorption of virtually any substance dissolved in it, which is very similar to the properties of DMSO. Thus, applying the supplement (MitoLipin) topically should have excellent absorption, perhaps even better than oral. To enhance the absorption and entry into the cell, the saturated PC is dissolved in tocopherol and MCT.

hello haidut, I just bought it and I'm very excited to try it. I'm planning to take it topically. my bottle says the serving size is 2ml (40 drops). what would be the equivalent topical dosage, since it has better absorption that way?

 

[Zpol]

Thanks for this. Do you believe the TMAO thing, sounds like it would be a great marketing ploy. Create a problem, offer a solution.....

But maybe it is a real issue. I'll look into it. Thanks

Too much TMAO produced in the body is a real problem. It happens when PC and it's metabolites are not digested by gut bacteria properly.
There is a one 'Dr. Hazen' who is trying to make a profit off this by creating a supplement to prevent this from happening. I would keep that in mind when reading anything published by him. (Not saying all his research is invalid, just something to keep in mind.)
I too am trying to understand this entirely as it affects both my boyfriend and myself. Dr. Chris Masterjohn explains a lot about it on his blog and educational series, a good place to start researching IMO.

I just came across these studies as well, I referenced on this post...
Methanogen Bacteria Responsible For Risk Of CVD Assoc. PC (choline, TMAO)

Mitolipin is not a prob though; per Haidut..."However, the studies with PC (and especially saturated PC) did not show any cholinergic effects".

(Apologies mods...I hope I didn't derail this thread!)

 

[haidut]

hello haidut, I just bought it and I'm very excited to try it. I'm planning to take it topically. my bottle says the serving size is 2ml (40 drops). what would be the equivalent topical dosage, since it has better absorption that way?

Yes, I would take that topically in this dose as well but would split it into 2-3 daily doses to avoid spreading large amounts of oily substance on skin at once.

 

[haidut]

Too much TMAO produced in the body is a real problem. It happens when PC and it's metabolites are not digested by gut bacteria properly.
There is a one 'Dr. Hazen' who is trying to make a profit off this by creating a supplement to prevent this from happening. I would keep that in mind when reading anything published by him. (Not saying all his research is invalid, just something to keep in mind.)
I too am trying to understand this entirely as it affects both my boyfriend and myself. Dr. Chris Masterjohn explains a lot about it on his blog and educational series, a good place to start researching IMO.

I just came across these studies as well, I referenced on this post...
Methanogen Bacteria Responsible For Risk Of CVD Assoc. PC (choline, TMAO)

Mitolipin is not a prob though; per Haidut..."However, the studies with PC (and especially saturated PC) did not show any cholinergic effects".

(Apologies mods...I hope I didn't derail this thread!)

The PC in MitoLipin should get absorbed before reaching the colon. Same with topical absorption - not much effect on colon bacteria.

 

[Gaga]

@haidut
Can it be applied with K2 at the same time?(different body parts)

 

[lollipop]

@haidut
Can it be applied with K2 at the same time?(different body parts)

@Gaga I am not Haidut but I apply it together at times and it only helps my temps!

 

[Amazoniac]

The choline is used as a carrier, not so much as a supplement on its own. While it can replace some of the choline in eggs, the goal of MitoLipin is not really to give you choline but to give you saturated fat deep into the cell where it has trouble getting on its own. Choline carries substances very well through the cytosol and into the mitochondria. Quite a few drugs sold on the market use choline as carrier to increase cellular absorption.

Muscular, consider including this response in the description somehow..

 

[haidut]

Muscular, consider including this response in the description somehow..

Done, thanks for pointing it out.

 

[jb116]

In the beginning of its use, I used Mito for liver health. That and K2 changed the game for me, about 8 or 9 months later. Now I like to use Mito as a counter supplement if I know I'm eating pufa heavy meals.

 

[Wagner83]

In the beginning of its use, I used Mito for liver health. That and K2 changed the game for me, about 8 or 9 months later. Now I like to use Mito as a counter supplement if I know I'm eating pufa heavy meals.

What changes did you notice? Did you had any blood tests done for liver health before and after?

 

[jb116]

What changes did you notice? Did you had any blood tests done for liver health before and after?

It was the waking up sweating and constantly hungry thing that I had to address. I never turned to using thyroid and I've always been more cautious of things having a
history of crohn's. I saw improvements with diet but I needed more direct action and so focused on liver health. Caffeine powder, Mitolipin, and K2 made the biggest differences.
I was able to retain glycogen better, started sleeping through the night again. Even with the still occasional wake up, a small glass of milk and right back to bed I'd go. Mitolipin itself,
was allowing me to sleep soundly when I would take it before bed. 10 drops orally was good enough. Many years ago before discovering these ideas, I swore off going to doctors, even for blood tests. So I haven't been doing any of that, I simply go on physical symptoms, effects, and the outcome of substances that possess a certain quality and function.

 

[ddjd]

i saw this quote on functionalps.com

"“The crucial mitochondrial respiratory enzyme, cytochrome c oxidase, declines with aging (Paradies, et al., 1997), as the lipid cardiolipin declines, and the enzyme’s activity can be restored to the level of young animals by adding cardiolipin. The composition of cardiolipin changes with aging, “specifically an increase in highly unsaturated fatty acids” (Lee, et al., 2006). Other lipids, such as a phosphatidylcholine containing two myristic acid groups, can support the enzyme’s activity (Hoch, 1992). Even supplementing old animals with hydrogenated peanut oil restores mitochondrial respiration to about 80% of normal (Bronnikov, et al., 2010).”

why would hydrogenated Peanut oil help?? i thought it was a PUFA....