K2 Causing Heart Palpitations

[bionicheart]

I've taken K2 (thorne research), just 1 drop on two separate occasions.
Each time my heart rate went from 75 up to 110 and I had palpitations well into the day after taking it. I also got "air hungry" after each dose. I haven't been supplementing with anything else other than magnesium, nor changed my diet during doses.
What could be causing this, has anyone else experienced this? I want to take it to prevent calcification and tartar build up.
Thanks

 

[johnwester130]

Interesting.

Maybe take it with magnesium and taurine

 

[raypeatclips]

Did you take it orally? Fat solubles can bother the gut and cause a variety of negative symptoms.

 

[Peatnik Boetry]

Are you taking any other supplements?

I get this too. No idea why unfortunately. I think certain B vitamins may exacerbate it. Sometimes I'd get feelings of euphoria too.

Same thing happens when I take Gonadin, even more pronounced than from K2. Sucks because K2 helped me more than any other supplement with my cognitive and fatigue issues.

 

[bionicheart]

Did you take it orally? Fat solubles can bother the gut and cause a variety of negative symptoms.

No, I put it on my wrist

 

[raypeatclips]

No, I put it on my wrist

How much calcium do you get? Any vit A or D?

 

[bionicheart]

How much calcium do you get? Any vit A or D?

I probably get RDA 100% or more. I eat cheese, milk, OJ and ice cream. I failed to mentioned, I got palpitations taking Estroban, I was taking it for a week and started to notice them (taking just 4 drops transdermal) and they went away a couple days after my last dose. Also, I started supplementing with magnesium Calm with the calcium and vitamin D added. Probably not getting enough vitamin A though, since I have acne and retin-a is the only thing that helps... :/

 

[Waynish]

I'm curious why you chose that username...

 

[bionicheart]

I'm curious why you chose that username...

It was an old user name I used when I had an internal cardioverter defibrillator placed at the young age of 21... Due to an "idiopathic" episode of ventricular tachycardia 6 years ago. Never happened again, but my mom and aunt had one and heart transplants later, I'm trying to avoid that path... probably more than you wanted to know ;P

 

[Travis]

Each time my heart rate went from 75 up to 110 and I had palpitations well into the day after taking it. I also got "air hungry" after each dose. I haven't been supplementing with anything else other than magnesium, nor changed my diet during doses.
What could be causing this, has anyone else experienced this?

Probably the similarity of menaquinone (MK-4, K₂) with CoQ₁₀. Coenzyme Q₁₀ (ubiquinone) is very cardioactive and can cause heart palpitations and racing since it is intimately involved in the electron transport chain in the heart. A deficiency of CoQ₁₀ can actually cause heart failure.

They have different tail lengths (from 4 to 10 isoprene units) but their heads are similar and they are both classified as benzoquinones.

Additionally, vitamin K₂ is used in the electron transport chain in bacteria. Here are some quotes from the article entitled
Vitamin K₂ in Electron Transport System: Are Enzymes Involved in Vitamin K₂ Biosynthesis Promising Drug Targets?

5. The Role of Vitamin K₂ in Electron Transport
In prokaryotes, especially in Gram-positive bacteria, menaquinone [K₂] will transfer two electrons in a
process of aerobic or anaerobic respiration. Respiration occurs in the cell membrane of prokaryotic
cells. Electron donors, with the help of an enzyme, will transfer two electrons to menaquinone.
Menaquinone, with the help of another enzyme, will in turn transfer these two electrons to an electron
acceptor. Schematic electron flow mediated by menaquinone in M. tuberculosis is illustrated in
Figure 3. The exact organization of enzymes in respiratory chains will vary among different bacteria;
this illustration is intended to demonstrate the basic features of the process. Although NADH is the
most important electron donor in eukaryotes, bacteria can use a number of different electron donors, a
number of different dehydrogenases, a number of different oxidases and reductases, and a number of
different electron acceptors. As illustrated in Figure 3, electrons are transported along the membrane
through menaquinone and a series of protein carriers (i.e., cytochrome bc1 complex). Concomitantly,
protons are translocated across the cell membrane, from the cytoplasm to the periplasmic space. The
cell membrane is impermeable to protons, except through ATP synthases. When protons move through
these complexes, energy releases by their passage in coupled to synthesis of ATP from ADP and
phosphate. Thus, the lipid-soluble electron carriers (lipoquinones) occupy a central and essential role
in electron transport, and thus, ATP synthesis [32,33]. The lipoquinones involved in the respiratory
chains of bacteria consist of menaquinones and ubiquinones [CoQ]. From the taxonomic studies it is evident
that the majority of Gram-positive bacteria including Mycobacterium spp. utilize only menaquinone in
their electron transport systems [34], and menaquinone biosynthesis is essential for survival of Grampositive
bacteria [3,35,36]. Menaquinone synthesis has been extensively studied in E. coli (due in part
to the availability of the men mutants). A majority of Gram-negative organisms utilize ubiquinone (Q)
under aerobic conditions, and menaquinone under anaerobic conditions in their electron transport
systems.

Some life forms use both CoQ₁₀ and K₂ in the mitochondrial electron transport chain, and some even use K₂ only.

Maybe you are low on CoQ₁₀?

Vitamin K₁ probably will not do this because it has an entirely different tail. The CoQ₁₀-like isoprene tail on vitamin K₂ is actually made in the body, and the biosynthesis of K₂ from K₁ involves a "tail-switching" procedure.

 

[bionicheart]

Probably the similarity of menaquinone (MK-4, K₂) with CoQ₁₀. Coenzyme Q₁₀ (ubiquinone) is very cardioactive and can cause heart palpitations and racing since it is intimately involved in the electron transport chain in the heart. A deficiency of CoQ₁₀ can actually cause heart failure.
View attachment 6098
They have different tail lengths (from 4 to 10 isoprene units) but their heads are similar and they are both classified as benzoquinones.

Additionally, vitamin K₂ is used in the electron transport chain in bacteria. Here are some quotes from the article entitled
Vitamin K₂ in Electron Transport System: Are Enzymes Involved in Vitamin K₂ Biosynthesis Promising Drug Targets?



Some life forms use both CoQ₁₀ and K₂ in the mitochondrial electron transport chain, and some even use K₂ only.

Maybe you are low on CoQ₁₀?

Vitamin K₁ probably will not do this because it has an entirely different tail. The CoQ₁₀-like isoprene tail on vitamin K₂ is actually made in the body, and the biosynthesis of K₂ from K₁ involves a "tail-switching" procedure.

Wow Travis, thanks for this! Would you suggest supplementing CoQ₁₀ for a couple of weeks then maybe try to add K2 back in..?

 

[Elderflower j58]

Correct me if I'm wrong ,I'm sure I read that Ray Peat said vitamin k
Could do the same (if not better) for the heart than CoQ10 ?

 

[Sucrates]

Correct me if I'm wrong ,I'm sure I read that Ray Peat said vitamin k
Could do the same (if not better) for the heart than CoQ10 ?

He's said K2 is better than CoQ10 for respiration IIRC.

 

[Travis]

Would you suggest supplementing CoQ₁₀ for a couple of weeks then maybe try to add K2 back in..?

Yeah. It would be interesting to know if CoQ₁₀ does the same thing at an equivalent dose (per mol).

MK-4 is only half as heavy (444.648 g/mol) as coenzyme Q₁₀ (865.38 g/mol), so the equivalent dose would be about twice as much CoQ₁₀ by mass.

Or you can take K₁, which will prevent calcification but is not cardioactive.

 

[mr.mag]

Are you taking any other supplements?

I get this too. No idea why unfortunately. I think certain B vitamins may exacerbate it. Sometimes I'd get feelings of euphoria too.

Same thing happens when I take Gonadin, even more pronounced than from K2. Sucks because K2 helped me more than any other supplement with my cognitive and fatigue issues.

I've gotten palpitations from gonadin too - also tyro mix

 

[mr.mag]

I've gotten palpitations from gonadin too - also tyro mix

 

[Sucrates]

I emailed Ray about ectopic beats and he mentioned minerals, dairy and OJ. He also said vitamin D can help if it's low.

 

[Garry]

Just a question on Mk4 since I because I just purchased some. CoQ10 will give me some palpitations. Is it an expected outcome of MK4 to give palpitations also? I ordered a 5 mg size pill.

 

[owtsgmi]

I've taken K2 (thorne research), just 1 drop on two separate occasions.
Each time my heart rate went from 75 up to 110 and I had palpitations well into the day after taking it. I also got "air hungry" after each dose. I haven't been supplementing with anything else other than magnesium, nor changed my diet during doses.
What could be causing this, has anyone else experienced this? I want to take it to prevent calcification and tartar build up.
Thanks

Just wanted to chime in that both COQ10 (ubiquinol) and the Thorne K2 drops give me heart palpitations as well. To the point where I thought I might have a heart attack - pretty scary. I searched for this about 2 years ago and found very little to suggest these two supplements would act like this. So, it's good to know that there is something to this, and it wasn't my imagination. I have been staying away from both of these supps, but always felt I should be taking them for heart protection.

Travis - thanks for the tip on K1. I might try this next since it is not cardioactive. I also was curious if the "better" form of COQ10 (ubiquinone) might be have fewer side effects than the form I took before (ubiquinol). A vendor phrases it like this:
"CoQ10 (ubiquinone) is a vital nutrient found in every living cell. It is an essential catalyst in the life process of all cells. Ubiquinol, on the other hand, is unstable with a poor shelf life. The benefits of taking CoQ10 are too numerous to list. "

 

[Travis]

I also was curious if the "better" form of COQ10 (ubiquinone) might be have fewer side effects than the form I took before (ubiquinol).

Ubiquinol has two more electrons than ubiquinone, so it has a higher reducing (e⁻-donating) potential. It would be interesting to know if this makes a difference.