K1 Can Be Converted To MK4 Without Gut Bacteria

Mito

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@lisaferraro @raypeatclips yet another point on team "supplements aren't neccessary"

especially in lieu of this:

"and it has been established that high tissue concentrations of MK-4 are more readily obtained in rats by phylloquinone supplementation than by administering MK-4 "

Something to consider......

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/
As humans, we also convert other forms of vitamin K to MK-4. This raises the question, do we really need to consume MK-4 directly if we can make it ourselves? My answer is yes.

There are three reasons we shouldn’t rely on the conversion:

  • First, we don’t actually know that much about how the conversion takes place, but it seems to be inefficient and highly variable according to genetics and health status, making it unreliable.
  • Second, cholesterol-lowering statin drugs and certain osteoporosis drugs inhibit the conversion, making it even less reliable in people who are taking these drugs.
  • Third, research shows vitamin K2 is better than vitamin K1 at supporting many different aspects of our health. If we easily converted as much K1 to K2 as we needed, we wouldn’t observe these superior benefits of K2.
 

Jon

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Something to consider......

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/
As humans, we also convert other forms of vitamin K to MK-4. This raises the question, do we really need to consume MK-4 directly if we can make it ourselves? My answer is yes.

There are three reasons we shouldn’t rely on the conversion:

  • First, we don’t actually know that much about how the conversion takes place, but it seems to be inefficient and highly variable according to genetics and health status, making it unreliable.
  • Second, cholesterol-lowering statin drugs and certain osteoporosis drugs inhibit the conversion, making it even less reliable in people who are taking these drugs.
  • Third, research shows vitamin K2 is better than vitamin K1 at supporting many different aspects of our health. If we easily converted as much K1 to K2 as we needed, we wouldn’t observe these superior benefits of K2.

Thanks for your input @Mito !

The first and second bullet points you shared are undoubtedly a factor that would go in favor of supplementing k2 in populations who have clinically established complications that could impede k1 conversion.

The third is good also for highlighting the fact that we don't really know much about how the conversion takes place BUT I do think it's still alittle early to say we don't convert enough k1 to k2. True k2 has superior health benefits and the Japanese studies showed this, they also showed the body has a raging affinity for k2 and that mk4 was better than k1 and mk7 for potency of effect on calcium transport. BUT I think there's a rate limiting effect that works to our benefit here in the case of conversion of k1 to mk4.

K1 while being converted to mk4 is thought to produce menadione or k3 during conversion which we know to have toxic effects. mk4 is also metabolized to k3 somewhat in the body though the conversion seems to yield very low levels.

This is what makes me think supplementation is still somewhat risky because when we supplement we're getting huge doses of mk4 that are obviously unatural (save being an ancient egyptian and hunting down a goose that engorged itself with grass along the nile during prime season and gave itself a fatty liver which you then ate and got copious amounts of menatertrone lol) and these high doses of k2 are yielding higher than natural doses of menadione.

I think maybe menadione has its place in apoptosis of already damaged cells preventing potential mutations and so some is possibly necessary for health but I also think it's only in small quantities (small pertaining to the amount you'd get from food and subsequent conversion of k1 to k3 and k2 compared to the amount you'd get from supplementing).

K1 also takes time to convert to mk4 in the body and as we know the half like of mk4 is short. Not all ingested k1 is going to be converted to k2 at once and so there's going to be a titration of mk4 released into the body instead of a large bolus all at once. This seems like another rate limiting effect that keeps us recieving the benefit of mk4 for longer in more manageable dose than supplementing huge amounts the body does not have to convert.

Also getting k1 from food comes along with other nutrients like magnesium (kale, spinach, chard) and potassium and may have co-factors in relation to k1 conversions yet to be identified. These reasons are why I'm still on team supplements not necessary FOR MOST PEOPLE (amended).

I do agree though that there are specific populations that could benefit from supplementing.
 
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Jon

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I simply feel better eating varied balanced, nutrient dense foods. I do not even feel the need to supplement. Now that I am doing the one Qigong pose daily and increasing my time, my body is leaning out, appetite is increasing, temps are up - really balancing my thyroid. No other physical exercise has brought these fast results. In combination with my good homemade food - things are are finally coming together.

Here are some links on it. PS...my husband and I increased our time to 20min in like 10 days. That is aggressive and not necessary - we really saw good benefits after 5 min - then much more after 10 min. 20 min is a big WoW - we will increase to 30 and hang out for a while simply because of all our morning routine - we simply have no more time. Years ago I had built up to 45min and seriously felt a bit like “superwoman” strong and balanced. It really gives your system vital energy.

*Hold The Balloon


http://developyourenergy.net/zhang-zhuang-chi-kung/holding-the-balloon-the-second-position/


http://sharepoint.bluewillowwellness.com/qigong/Shared Documents/ZHAN ZHUANG Student handoutdoc.doc



Four Paradoxes of Standing Meditation


Chi kung / Qigong

Kudos! Nice to hear of your progressing health :).

My dad used to take summer trips to Asia to visit the shaolin temples, Bali, Indonesia, Thailand, Tibet and so on.

He used to tell me that the old masters of tai chi went through their form extremely slow and took looong deep breaths had younger looking skin and when he'd shake their hands after they demonstrated their forms their hands would be on fire! I think there's a lot of efficacy to qi gong :)

He also said you'll never meet an old Tibetan lol they usually die before 60 from the altitude aging them rapidly. They drink yak butter tea all day to try to get enough calories to keep weight on and the Chinese businessmen refuse to work in Tibet as they believe staying there for extended periods will reduce your life expectancy. I've thought a lot about this ever since learning about Peat and I have my hypothesis's but bottom line I believe it's a commentary on how extremes (apart from therapeutic intervention) are dangerous for most.
 
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lollipop

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I've thought a lot about this ever since learning about Peat and I have my hypothesis's but bottom line I believe it's a commentary on how extremes (apart from therapeutic intervention) are dangerous for most.
Yep. I agree...
 

Mito

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K1 also takes time to convert to mk4 in the body and as we know the half like of mk4 is short. Not all ingested k1 is going to be converted to k2 at once and so there's going to be a titration of mk4 released into the body instead of a large bolus all at once. This seems like another rate limiting effect that keeps us recieving the benefit of mk4 for longer in more manageable dose than supplementing huge amounts the body does not have to convert.
I’m not sure half life has any relevance. MK-4 is packaged on the outside of the chylomicrons so when they circulate in the blood stream MK-4 will be taken up by the tissues that want it before K1 or MK-7.
304E7B61-3408-45DB-A12D-DAEA0478FBD9.jpeg

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/
 

Jon

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I’m not sure half life has any relevance. MK-4 is packaged on the outside of the chylomicrons so when they circulate in the blood stream MK-4 will be taken up by the tissues that want it before K1 or MK-7.
View attachment 10132
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/

Yeah I don't know where I was going with the short half life lol sorry I start tangents and then switch gears rapidly when I write a reply because I'm so excited to talk about this stuff lol and by the way I'm obviously a noob with a lot of this so thanks for chatting with me, I learn a lot from these sorts of conversations lol.

Aside from my tangent (and thanks for the infographic, it's really cool), do you think there was efficacy to what I said about the process of converting k1 to mk4 having health benefit itself?
 

Mito

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do you think there was efficacy to what I said about the process of converting k1 to mk4 having health benefit itself?
Possibly but it seems important to get K2 in the diet as well because there appears to be a lot of evidence that K2 helps certain health conditions when K1 does not have the same effects.
 

Amazoniac

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- Dietary vitamin K is remodeled by gut microbiota and influences community composition

Abstract said:
Vitamins have well-established roles in bacterial metabolism. Menaquinones (MKn, n = prenyl units in sidechain) are bacterially produced forms of vitamin K produced by the gut microbiota and consumed in the diet. Little is known about the influence of dietary vitamin K quinones on gut microbial composition and MKn production. Here, male and female C57BL6 mice were fed a vitamin K deficient diet or vitamin K sufficient diets containing phylloquinone (PK, plant-based vitamin K form), MK4, and/or MK9. DNA was extracted from cecal contents and 16S sequencing conducted to assess microbial composition. Cecal microbial community composition was significantly different in vitamin K deficient female mice compared to females on vitamin K sufficient diets (all p < .007). Parallel trends were seen in male mice, but were not statistically significant (all p > .05 but <0.1). Next, stable isotope-labeled vitamin K quinones were supplemented to male and female C57BL6 mice (2H7PK, 13C11MK4, 2H7MK7, 2H7MK9) and to an in vitro fermentation model inoculated with human stool (2H7PK, 2H7MK4, 2H7MK9, or vitamin K precursor 2H8-menadione). Vitamin K quinones in feces and culture aliquots were measured using LC-MS. In vivo, supplemented vitamin K quinones were remodeled to other MKn (2H7- or 13C6-labeled MK4, MK10, MK11, and MK12), but in vitro only the precursor 2H8-menadione was remodeled to 2H7MK4, 2H7MK9, 2H7MK10, and 2H7MK11. These results suggest that dietary vitamin K deficiency alters the gut microbial community composition. Further studies are needed to determine if menadione generated by host metabolism may serve as an intermediate in dietary vitamin K remodeling in vivo.
 

youngsinatra

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Recently I noticed more bruises on my arms and body. I don’t eat significant amounts of vitamin K. I do however have a liquid K1 supplement in olive oil, which I think I will take for now. I remember that it quickly stopped my nose bleeds from moderate aspirin usage in the past.

Interesting information in this thread!
I always felt very weird from vitamin K2. (MK7)
 

Peatress

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Recently I noticed more bruises on my arms and body. I don’t eat significant amounts of vitamin K. I do however have a liquid K1 supplement in olive oil, which I think I will take for now. I remember that it quickly stopped my nose bleeds from moderate aspirin usage in the past.

Interesting information in this thread!
I always felt very weird from vitamin K2. (MK7)
Which brand of K1 are you using? I have not been able to find a K1 supplement without fillers
 

youngsinatra

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Thank you. Is it safe to have K and vitamin E together?
The mixed tocopherols are listed last on the ingredient list so it should have a lower concentration than K1. (So it should contain less than 1mg of vitamin E per serving, which is insignificant)
 

Peatress

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The mixed tocopherols are listed last on the ingredient list so it should have a lower concentration than K1. (So it should contain less than 1mg of vitamin E per serving, which is insignificant)
I think Dr Peat said K and vitamin E shouldn't be taken together but I think if you are using them topically it might be ok
 

youngsinatra

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I think Dr Peat said K and vitamin E shouldn't be taken together but I think if you are using them topically it might be ok
I mean, in this concentration it would be like eating some wellcooked greens with a teaspoon of olive oil. (vitamin E)

I don’t think it’s significant. I use it orally.
 

Peatress

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I mean, in this concentration it would be like eating some wellcooked greens with a teaspoon of olive oil. (vitamin E)

I don’t think it’s significant. I use it orally.
01:32:15 - The unfavorable redox reaction that occurs when vitamin E and vitamin K are mixed, riboflavin, methylene blue and red light
 

youngsinatra

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Interesting study.

Also interesting that the K1 supplemented group had higher testicular levels of K2-MK4 than the group that directly got supplemented with MK4.
 

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aliml

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Macrophages can produce endogenous MK-4 from exogenous vitamins K1, K3, and MK-5, but not MK-6 or MK-7.
 

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