Is Too Many Supplements? Any Comments Appreciated

[raypeatclips]

It was about 20 grams. I had sepsis like symptoms and was never officially diagnosed.

A heaped tablespoon of it? How come you were taking so much? I've seen 1/4 tsp mentioned often.

 

[danishispsychic]

I've been doing a T4/T3 mix too, for several years. I've done stuff on an off for many years too, but I just keep getting sicker. It doesn't seem right to take all these supplements but at the same time, all these issues are the very issues that lead to serious degenerative disease and so I can't do nothing either. It's quite the quandary. It's like there's some underlying issue that's causing it all. But what? Severely deficient in vitamins and minerals, I have chronic viral and bacterial infections, and lots of endotoxin, proteins are leaking through my gut walls, my blood vessels are shot. I have no answer as to what is causing what. I've been sick since the day I was born. Never breast fed so that maybe a clue. I just don't know so I think I should treat everything.



I take it orally since the scent is a bit nauseating.



I was vegan for 10 years. Also did a water fast during that time and then did the 16 hour intermittent fasting. Even spent thousands and hired Dr. Joel Fuhrman (the guy who wrote Eat to Live) to help. Not even he could help. Ended up jaundice and high triglycerides so reluctantly started eating meat again. I can only fit about a cup of food in my belly every 3 hours or so, so that probably why i failed with intermittent fasting. Thank you for sharing your success story though! This very inspiring. I do hope to be vegan or even vegetarian again someday.

hi- im pretty much a 80/10/10 raw vegan at this point. every once in a while i eat some cooked, but again, its low in fat . the jaundice thing is triglycerides are too much fat i do believe and the liver not working properly. keeping a clean gut , liver and gallbladder are key- i think. coffee enemas and salt water flushes have really saved my liver. eating dead animals doesnt work for my liver or my ethics but i love ray peats work so i do my version of it . water fasting will always work if you do it long enough, but again, it is tough. the master cleanse really works to no matter what. i think that salt water flush is really peaty actually and lemon juice and sugar cane juice is what i do when i do it.

Thanks! I did get an ab bench and I love it! With scoliosis and GERD it's a bit difficult to do some of those exercises though. I'm going slowly with it, but I am 100% sure that it will help in the long run.
Oh and yes, I do have a difficulty in absorbing nutrients. Not sure if that's the cause of my problems or a symptom.

 

[BingDing]

OP, just want to mention that you still make betaine methyltransferase and supplementing betaine is a parallel pathway to the folate pathway of homocystiene->methionine.

So don't avoid supplementing niacinimide because it is a methyl sponge, address the MTHFR issue by supplementing betaine. RP mentions niacinimide as being protective like 500 times. Haidut explains it like this, niacinimide -> NAD -> glutathione redox status, which may be one of the primary markers for good health. Glutathione is the only systemic antioxidant (I think), meaning is works outside the cells, and is one of four molecules the liver conjugates with toxicants in the P450 system.

My $.02

 

[Zpol]

only vitamin d
vitamin a in low doses
vitamin k2

magnesium oil

pregnenolone/progesterone

all as liquids, can be considered good supplements

everything else, cypro, aspirin, lisuride, methylene blue, b6 and b12, zinc/selenium are optional and not ideal

I'm upping the D and K for sure, I hope the other supp's will just be temporary till I get my metabolism up.

Sat fat + sugar. Fruit juice is another option, but the liquids can be an issue at the beginning for some people with slow metabolism.

I think the trick is to mimic the caloric density of starch and pufa (think Cheesecake/Ice cream) until your digestion improves to handle liquids.

PROGRESS REPORT FASTEST FAT LOSS EVER THANKS TO RAYYY

Nice! Thanks for linking to this thread. I long for the day when I can eat till I'm satisfied and not feel sick. It is probably somewhat psychosomatic , I still have that element to tackle, there are definite anxiety attacks when faced with eating a meal. None the less, this post is very inspiring, so thank you.

OP, just want to mention that you still make betaine methyltransferase and supplementing betaine is a parallel pathway to the folate pathway of homocystiene->methionine.

So don't avoid supplementing niacinimide because it is a methyl sponge, address the MTHFR issue by supplementing betaine. RP mentions niacinimide as being protective like 500 times. Haidut explains it like this, niacinimide -> NAD -> glutathione redox status, which may be one of the primary markers for good health. Glutathione is the only systemic antioxidant (I think), meaning is works outside the cells, and is one of four molecules the liver conjugates with toxicants in the P450 system.

My $.02

@BingDing , thank you for you 2 cents. I have read many of your posts but I'm still not sure I understand as to whether Betaine is harmful or helpful. I do need to up my blood plasma glutathione and Alph-Lipoic-Acid, also folate and B12, and Riboflavin and Thiamine (my blood plasma tests indicate I'm extremely deficient).
Have I got this right?...
MTHFR snp = lacking methyl donors -> lacking methyl donors prevents Hcy from converting to methionine and ultimately a build-up of Hcy ... so you are saying that supplementing Betaine Hcl (which is trimethylglycine or 'TMG') would donate the specific methyl groups that would prevent the build-up of Hcy by effectively converting it to methonine?
Furthermore, supplementing with niacinamide would be highly beneficial in upping glutathione (and ALA perhaps), but without the added methyl donors from Betaine Hcl (TMG), it would just increase the build-up of Hcy and make matters worse.

So in fact Betaine is dangerous for those who have adequate methyl donors or excessive methyl donors, but it's necessary for those of us who are lacking methyl donors. Is this correct?
I also am supposed to take methylated B12 and folate. If I take Betaine along with those, this will be way too many methyl donors I fear.
I have taken Betaine years ago for constipation and heartburn, it did not help at all.
It might be my deficient B12 causing gallbladder and pancreas issues which is causing the digestive issues.

Do you think just taking methylated B12 and folate would be enough and the correct kind of methyl donors to enable me to take niacinamide and decrease Hcy?

I am fairly confused here. It seems everything I think I should take as a supplement, including some food based ones, has some deadly unwanted side effect that has to mitigated by taking some other additional supplement!

Getting my calories up will help, I know this much for sure, but that's hard with dealing with IBD, gastritis, GERD, LPRD, etc. Plus, I am 102 lbs but 30% body fat, so yea no muscle to speak off and too fatigued and in pain to do anything physical. Plus it's winter.

 

[Zpol]

@BingDing
I think I get now. I've re-read some my other previous threads and others that I've been following that address the high Hcy issue. There's many things affecting Hcy; B6 and other B Vit's, glycine, carnitine, MB, microbiota, etc.
And it does seem there is some ideal ratio of TMG dose to Niacinamide dose that would be ideal to balance out the methyl donors. However, it still freaks me out to supplement TMG since I don't know what the best ratio would be. Also, TMG has three methyl donors, only one goes to Hcy; where do the other two go? I've been learning a lot from Chris Masterjohn, plus I read this study recently...

The Power of Choline for Methylation
in Blog, Methylation and Genetics /

Many practitioners are aware that Betaine (aka Trimethylglycine, TMG) is the methyl donor in the BHMT pathway and as it’s alternate name suggests, possesses three chemically reactive methyl groups linked to a nitrogen atom.1

Within the BHMT pathway, Betaine is converted into Dimethylglycine (DMG) after donating one of its three methyl groups to homocysteine, to convert it to methionine and ultimately SAMe as an alternate and important route of methylation production to the well known Folate/B12 requiring MTR pathway.

What many practitioners may not be aware of, is that Betaine can be readily produced in the body through the oxidation of Choline via the choline dehydrogenase and betaine aldehyde dehydrogenase enzymes, particularly in the liver and muscles.2

For this reason Choline has also been shown to indirectly support homocysteine methylation.3

One study of postmenopausal women showed that Choline supplementation increased plasma Betaine levels and slightly lowered plasma levels of total homocysteine (tHcy) after six weeks.4

The upper tolerable limit for Choline in adults is 3.5 g/day. Beyond the diet and supplements, the only other source of choline is via de novo synthesis from phosphatidylcholine which requires significant amounts of SAMe via the PEMT pathway (3 mole SAM to produce 1 mole choline) and produces homocysteine.

A deficiency of Choline will therefore put an increased additional burden on potentially already strained SAMe/Methylation levels, in those exhibiting insufficient methylation capacity.

Available evidence suggests that Folate deficiency can be partly compensated for when more Choline is available, and vice versa.

For example, Choline and Phosphatidylcholine were depleted in the livers of rats fed a Folate-deficient diet.5 In turn, consumption of a Choline-deficient diet decreased hepatic Folate stores6 and lowered Methionine formation in animal livers by 20%–25%,7 due to less Choline being available for conversion into Betaine. The effects of Choline deficiency on reducing liver SAMe (by 60%) and increasing liver SAH (by 50%) were pronounced.7

Supplementation with Choline can therefore prove to be an invaluable if not essential co-prescription with any methylated B vitamins in the clinical treatment of methylation insufficiencies.

Supplements that include the preferable form ‘Choline Dihydrogen Citrate’ in combination with methylated Folate and B12, such as Research Nutrition’s Methyl Fortify, may provide maximum utility in patients requiring comprehensive methylation support.

Alternatively if you just want to use Methyl Folate on it’s own Research Nutrition’s L-5MTHF provides 500 mcg per capsule.

What about how to quench excess methyl groups?

Niacinamide B3 represents an invaluable clinical tool for balancing methylation protocols.

The mechanism of action is attributed to the conversion of Niacinamide into 1-Methyl-Niacinamide after receiving a methyl group via the Niacinamide n-methyltransferase (NNMT) enzyme. NNMT shunts Niacinamide away from NAD+ formation, using S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe) as its methyl donor. Clinical observations indicate a dose of 150mg Niacinamide appears to begin quenching excess methyl groups, with 500mg or more being required to make a noticeable impact in most individuals.

References

1. Obeid R. The Metabolic Burden of Methyl Donor Deficiency with Focus on the Betaine Homocysteine Methyltransferase Pathway. Nutrients 2013; 5: 3481–3495.

2. Rogers J.D., Sanchez-Saffon A., Frol A.B., Diaz-Arrastia R. Elevated plasma homocysteine levels in patients treated with levodopa: Association with vascular disease. Arch. Neurol. 2003;60:59–64.

3. Wallace J.M., McCormack J.M., McNulty H., Walsh P.M., Robson P.J., Bonham M.P., Duffy M.E., Ward M., Molloy A.M., Scott J.M., et al. Choline supplementation and measures of choline and betaine status: A randomised, controlled trial in postmenopausal women. Br. J. Nutr. 2012;108:1264–1271.

4. Holm P.I., Ueland P.M., Vollset S.E., Midttun O., Blom H.J., Keijzer M.B., den Heijer M. Betaine and folate status as cooperative determinants of plasma homocysteine in humans. Arterioscler. Thromb. Vasc. Biol. 2005;25:379–385.

5. Kim Y.I., Miller J.W., da Costa K.A., Nadeau M., Smith D., Selhub J., Zeisel S.H., Mason J.B. Severe folate deficiency causes secondary depletion of choline and phosphocholine in rat liver. J. Nutr.1994;124:2197–2203.

6. Horne D.W., Cook R.J., Wagner C. Effect of dietary methyl group deficiency on folate metabolism in rats. J. Nutr. 1989;119:618–621.
Zeisel S.H., Zola T., da Costa K.A., Pomfret E.A. Effect of choline deficiency on S-adenosylmethionine and methionine concentrations in rat liver.

7. Biochem. J. 1989;259:725–729.​

As you said ...

you still make betaine methyltransferase

I've been taking the MitoLipin, and although it is not meant to be a choline supplement, it does have choline (a saturated form) and so theoretically is supplying some non-dangerous, non-cholinergic, choline which would then be theoretically oxidizing to be TMG. I say 'theoretically' because although the logic is all scientifically valid, I have no idea what MY specific body is doing with it all, since I am not a young healthy person like those in many of these sudies. More lab work will be needed.

Another thing I learned today is that although Niacinamide can raise Homocystiene, taking aspirin along with the Niacinamide will help to prevent this.

 

[BingDing]

@Zpol I tried to respond sooner but I can't log in sometimes.

Betaine anhydrous is also available, I use that since I don't have stomach acid issues.

When I learned I had both MTHFR snps and high homocysteine I used both folate/B12 and betaine. Haidut made a case that B12, and maybe folate, are not so good and I stopped using those. Also, homocysteine as a marker for good/bad health is not very strong so I decided not to worry about it.

I never internalized the over/under methylation thing but suspect it is a shortcut kind of thinking and doesn't lead anywhere. It must relate to some kind of dysregulation of SAMe. It isn't just methyl molecules; caffeine is trymethyl xanthine and doesn't result in over methylation as far as I know. Someone would have said something, don't you think?

I don't recall anything negative about betaine but found lots of positives. If you have a link I'd like to read more. Why would it be dangerous?

I think you are on the right track. My working theory is that there are a thousand unanswered questions and Ray Peat's best guess is better than anyone else's. And Haidut's best guess is a close second.

 

[Mito]

Also, homocysteine as a marker for good/bad health is not very strong so I decided not to worry about it.

@Travis has several posts about homocysteine that suggest it’s important to keep it low for long term brain health.

Here is just a couple of his quotes:

“The things which affect the brain the most, it appears, are neurotransmitters, aluminum, and homocysteine. Much of the damage from aluminum is a result of lipid peroxidation, as it displaces iron, but I think the inflammation from the inclusion bodies and crosslinks would also increase histamine (a neurotransmitter). Homocysteine causes lipid peroxidation by forming a stable free radical which crosses the blood–brain barrier, causing damage in that way.” The Travis Corner

“You might then expect homocysteine to be doubleplusbad; first by having the capability of becoming a stable free radical, traversing the blood–brain barrier like a Trojan Horse resulting in a free-radical lipid peroxidation cascade; and second, by nullifying methylglyoxal with its sulfhydryl group. Also, homocysteine derives from methionine. This amino acid is one of the three, besides lysine and arginine, which can form a polyamine. This is probably why only small changes of less than a fraction of one percent reduces the lifespan of rats about 35%. This result has been replicated: With one showing a reduction of 44%, one of 35%, and one of 21%.” Linoleic Acid: Is This The Key That Unlocks The Quantum Brain?

@Zpol mentioned Chris Masterjohn, for me his was the best explantation on how MTHFR impacts the regulation of methylation pathways that I’ve been able to find https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/08/12/living-with-mthfr/. He does mention the BHMT (Betaine) pathway as part of a strategy to deal with the issues MTHFR might create (such as accumulating homocysteine), but there are other important things to consider like glycine wasting for example.

 

[Travis]

@Zpol mentioned Chris Masterjohn, for me his was the best explantation on how MTHFR impacts the regulation of methylation pathways that I’ve been able to find https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/08/12/living-with-mthfr/.

You know, Samuel L. Jackson also talks about that enzyme quite a bit.

(The movie Pulp Fiction always reminds me to take folate.)

 

[BingDing]

Thanks, @Mito Lots of reading to do.

LOL @Travis That's one acronym I can always remember.

 

[Mito]

You know, Samuel L. Jackson also talks about that enzyme quite a bit.

(The movie Pulp Fiction always reminds me to take folate.)

Now that you mention it, he does talk about it a lot

 

[Zpol]

Nice!! Gotta love Samuel Jackson!

@BingDing I don't have it all figured out yet. There does seem to be some great benefits with betaine so I'm not sure yet either way.

This post by @haidut from a while back got me thinking betaine may not be the best approach and there may be some better alternatives...

"I don't like betaine because it is a methyl donor. The human studies showed that humans do best on no more than 0.2mg/kg methionine daily - i.e lose fat and buid muscle, and reverse their type II diabetes. So, with all the methyl donors we ingest every day in the form of cysteine and methionine I don't think we need more in the form of betaine. I like the acid recipe more, it is more in line with the benefit of Lewis acids on metabolism.
Also, if these methyl donors were needed to process homocysteine then how come glycine (which is a huge methyl sink/depletor) lowers homocysteine?? In fact, that study says methionine (a methyl donor) raises homocysteine.
Suppression of methionine-induced hyperhomocysteinemia by glycine and serine in rats. - PubMed - NCBI

Something about that theory of needing extra methyl groups to prevent inflammation does not add up..."​

The glycine cleavage system is another thing I don't fully grasp yet. I am taking some glycine in Amino Pro BCAA's, not going to be mega dosing on it though, just taking 100mg per meal, plus whatever is contained in the meal.

 

[Amazoniac]

I already posted how bacterial overgrowth can be an useful adaptation to starvation. This is conserving metabolism, forcing oxidation too fast will probably cause problems. Since you're not consuming dairy, it's safer to use vit D (along with K) in such state.

Many nutrients (such as trace minerals) are excreted through bile and reabsorbed. The body slows down if senses a shortage to extract more nutrition out of foods, which ties in with the bacterial overgrowth. When you consume carrots in that state, it carries nutrients out and I suspect it's a reason why some people report constipation from it.

I believe there is some truth to copper accumulating in slow metabolisms. Ray commented that acid reflux and burning are related to elevated estrogen. People in such state conserve very well and uses very little vitamin A. When you consume liver, you might be force-feeding because it's very rare to crave such food if the metabolism is weak, it's usually unwanted and unneeded. I interpret this as a point against supplementation.

Zinc, gbolduev's manganese, and selenium are synergistic. Iodine from salt can be unreliable. Same for gelatin in broth, unless it's a hard dense block; if you're having trouble, you can try pressure cooked beef tendons.

Are you consuming enough folate?

Zeus has commented that Mitolipin isn't a choline supplement. What about sucholine?

B-vitamins can be therapeutic for sure. There's no need for extra B1 and B2, they will cause imbalances in the long-term, it's rare to be sustainable. I would consider using very low doses of Energin, like 2-4 drops (assuming oral use).
Then having isolated niacinamide and using up to Ray's 100mg but in spread 2-4 doses throughtout the day, because it's also about consistency. Niacinamide supplementation is the only one that is more or less sustainable on its own.
The inclusion of pantothenic acid is not a bad idea.

Riboflavin deficiency is common in hypopboydism. I posted something about it somewhere. It's all tricky because I suspect the body is doing it on purpose, it's refusing to ramp up metabolism to preserve you. That's why activity is so effective, it's a great signal that you can't afford living in such condition and more nutrition is not only desirable, but needed. For example, magnesium supplementation is usually in veiI mean, vain; there's no reason for the body to welcome it if you don't have the working signal, it just passes through and even interferes with the conserving balance.
If you walk during mornings you have the benefit of escaping EM radiation to a certain degree, set a healthy pace for the day and reinforces that it's daytime, worktime.

I would consider some magnesium chloride on the body before activity.
A bit sprinkled on heavy meals substituting part of table salt, or magnesium malate with fruit meals are good options too. Acetate and gluconate forms can be experimented as well.

I would focus on vit D and K, walking plenty (including uphills) with rests.

The good thing about taking the cascara bark instead of emodin is that it's only activated once it comes in contact with bacteria, which makes it excellent to allow you to eat your craved foods without having to deal with the microbial action later on.

Plenty of vit C will help you deal with any viral and bacteria infection better. If you don't have access to good fruits, there's no doubt that supplementing is better than becoming deficient.
Baking soda with orange juice is great but it can be overdone. I think it was j. that made a thread from problems with its consumption.

I would not use Oxidal (caffeine) for now.

I would also consider improving the metabolism first and on later if needed add the antimicrobials. In a weaker state pounding them will only serve to strengthen any present infection.

Regarding Vertigo, it's a semi-bad song in my opinion.

I must like you a lot, what a giant reply. Actually I don't, but it has nothing to do with your skin color, it was just reinforcement. But I do miss pboy.

 

[Amazoniac]

it has nothing to do with your skin color

I'm tired of having to deal with this myself. It's everywhere and no one's standing up against it. Can you imagine how it feels?

 

[Zpol]

I believe there is some truth to copper accumulating in slow metabolisms. Ray commented that acid reflux and burning are related to elevated estrogen. People in such state conserve very well and uses very little vitamin A. When you consume liver, you might be force-feeding because it's very rare to crave such food if the metabolism is weak, it's usually unwanted and unneeded. I interpret this as a point against supplementation.

Thank you yes! I know RP also does not recommend liver for people with severe hypo, did't quite know why. It wreaks havoc in my esophagus that's for sure. I have been taking Estroban, maybe I should quit that and just take E, D, and K.

Zinc, gbolduev's manganese, and selenium are synergistic. Iodine from salt can be unreliable. Same for gelatin in broth, unless it's a hard dense block; if you're having trouble, you can try pressure cooked beef tendons.

I just took a look at the thread where he talks a lot about these minerals, I'm going to have to spend more time understanding all this guy has to say. My doc just prescribed zinc, she wants me to take 10mg per day, looks like I'll have to balance it with manganese. I haven't yet read his recommendations for selenium and iodine but these are two that I've been meaning to research. I've been following the current thread on this site regarding iodine but it's ongoing, nothing conclusive there except that it's one thing that has to taken in context and monitored.
Not sure what you mean about gelatin in dense blocks. Unless you are talking about the fact too much liquid is not so good for low metabolism people, which i would agree, I don't do well on lots of liquids. I never noticed any benefits from bone broth anyway. I'm not sure I've ever seen beef tendons for sale anywhere but I'll look around.

Are you consuming enough folate?

No. Can't seem to consume enough food to get anywhere near the RDA and my blood plasma indicates a deficiency. My doc wants me on a supplement for it, and B12, both to be the methylated forms.

Zeus has commented that Mitolipin isn't a choline supplement. What about sucholine?

True, the choline is just the carrier so not going to be anything significant. I'm not sure what sucholine is.

B-vitamins can be therapeutic for sure. There's no need for extra B1 and B2, they will cause imbalances in the long-term, it's rare to be sustainable. I would consider using very low doses of Energin, like 2-4 drops (assuming oral use).
Then having isolated niacinamide and using up to Ray's 100mg but in spread 2-4 doses throughtout the day, because it's also about consistency. Niacinamide supplementation is the only one that is more or less sustainable on its own.
The inclusion of pantothenic acid is not a bad idea.

Ok, that makes sense; I will cut back on the Energin. I was taking 40 drops two or three times per day in order to meet RP's recommended 100mg doses of niacinamide. I am leary of taking niacinamide as a stand alone due to the homocysteine raising effect. My theory was that the other B-vitamins in Energin would balance it out, the B6 in particular. Still concerned about this effect, although I've read taking aspirin along with it can offset the raise in Hcy by something like 40%.

Riboflavin deficiency is common in hypopboydism. I posted something about it somewhere. It's all tricky because I suspect the body is doing it on purpose, it's refusing to ramp up metabolism to preserve you. That's why activity is so effective, it's a great signal that you can't afford living in such condition and more nutrition is not only desirable, but needed. For example, magnesium supplementation is usually in veiI mean, vain; there's no reason for the body to welcome it if you don't have the working signal, it just passes through and even interferes with the conserving balance.
If you walk during mornings you have the benefit of escaping EM radiation to a certain degree, set a healthy pace for the day and reinforces that it's daytime, worktime.
I would consider some magnesium chloride on the body before activity.
A bit sprinkled on heavy meals substituting part of table salt, or magnesium malate with fruit meals are good options too. Acetate and gluconate forms can be experimented as well.

I'm currently adding magnesium bicarb to my water but, and you are correct, it just passes through. I've notice some positive effects of the Mg bicarb over other forms I've taken, but I haven't tried malate, acetate, or gluconate; will have to experiment.

I would focus on vit D and K, walking plenty (including uphills) with rests.

Sounds lovely, but it's winter and I have Raynaud's so I can't be outside for more than a few minutes. There's no escape from the EMF's where I live anyway, there's power chords, wi-fi, cell phone towers everywhere. I'm hoping I can retire early or do something else in order to get out of this situation in the future.

The good thing about taking the cascara bark instead of emodin is that it's only activated once it comes in contact with bacteria, which makes it excellent to allow you to eat your craved foods without having to deal with the microbial action later on.

I am taking Cascara bark everyday, so much so that I'm concerned about possibly developing dependency, I'm praying that it keeps working.

Plenty of vit C will help you deal with any viral and bacteria infection better. If you don't have access to good fruits, there's no doubt that supplementing is better than becoming deficient.
Baking soda with orange juice is great but it can be overdone. I think it was j. that made a thread from problems with its consumption.

I will look into some good forms of supplements, Ascorbic acid is no go, gives me gastritis. I'm thinking Ascorbyl Palmitate based on the f*ck portion control blog.

I would also consider improving the metabolism first and on later if needed add the antimicrobials. In a weaker state pounding them will only serve to strengthen any present infection.

But aren't the microbes partially the cause of the impaired metabolism (i.e. endotoxin, LPS)? I certainly don't want to strengthen the infection; it's like a catch-22.

Regarding Vertigo, it's a semi-bad song in my opinion.

This has cleared up significantly. I think it was mostly due to scoliosis, I'm seeing a chiropractor, so far he's helping... so that's some good news at least.

I must like you a lot, what a giant reply. Actually I don't, but it has nothing to do with your skin color, it was just reinforcement. But I do miss pboy.

Lol! It's sad he's gone but still fun to read his posts!
And thank you for helping out a stranger. I truly appreciate it.

I'm tired of having to deal with this myself. It's everywhere and no one's standing up against it. Can you imagine how it feels?

With Bruce Dickinson telling me how that is, yes, I can truly understand.
(But seriously, I'm not sure exactly what you mean you are standing up against.)

 

[Amazoniac]

Papaya, oranges and spinach and strawberries are good sources of folate, the rest easily adds up with other foods.

The B-vitamins have to be in balance, all of them, and you already commented that you are probably deficient in some. As mentioned, niacinamide is the only one that is more or less sustainable on its own, but the doses don't need to be high. You should be able to tell if it's working or not, and always reduce to tolerance or adjust something else to tolerate the increased doses.

An inclined treadmill is better than not exercising. Perhaps you can wear a hat with a fishing rod (thanks Fisherman) holding a picture of pboy, it's quite a stimuli.

You can try vit C fruit powder mixed in orange juice.

Antimicrobials work better for acute infection, chronic infections are usually a result of some other impairment. At some point they start to contribute to the problem but they weren't the cause. In my opinion it makes more sense to strengthen the body first and introduce them later.

Potassium, niacin, and vit C is the therapeutic triad.

 

[lollipop]

I must like you a lot, what a giant reply.

I was thinking this as well - lol Not only long but SUPER clear, simple, easy to digest - sort of like you provided an @Amazoniac digestive enzyme with your response...

 

[Amazoniac]

I was thinking this as well - lol Not only long but SUPER clear, simple, easy to digest - sort of Rilke you provided an @Amazoniac digestive enzyme with your response...

I haven't been definite in my posts on purpose, it's not just for annoyance. I have to understand the whole picture better but I think that I would still be cautious with the words.
Speaking of pboy, it must feel comforting to know that you live in the same state as him.

 

[lollipop]

I haven't been definite in my posts on purpose, it's not just for annoyance. I have to understand the whole picture better but I think that I would still be cautious with the words.
Speaking of pboy, it must feel comforting to know that you live in the same state as him.

wow...I had no idea I was so close to him. “Feeling privileged”...

 

[tara]

Hi Zpol,
Sorry you are struggling with this. As you know, like most of us here, I am no expert. But some thoughts.

1. Stop gluten harm - hopefully you've already stopped this. Have you managed to completely 100% eliminate all wheat and other sources of gluten, and for how long?
In full-blown coeliac disease, I gather it can take a while for the gut to fully recover once gluten is completely removed and then for other organs to recover once the gut is functioning better, and that you have to be completely rigorous about all possible sources of gluten contamination, and that that is not easy because it is quite pervasive - lurking in products that one would not expect, like instant coffee etc. Consider avoiding all other grains too for a while if you are not doing that - some may have other proteins that are related and challenging, even if not strictly gluten. Avoid gums (eg some of those in 'gluten-free' foods and dairy, eg guar, carrageenan)

2. Minerals. Vege broths? Gelatinous if they work for you? Potato juice cooked? Green juices? Even in very small quantities if large ones bother you? If oral Mg doesn't work, consider transdermal Mg oil or epsom salts?

3. Consider small amounts of vitamins. eg. fat solubles transdermally. B-vits transdermally if oral not ok. Maybe tiny amounts of B-vits B1, B2, niacinamide with every meal, maybe others. Need vit C in some form.
Vit-C is needed for healing. If ascorbic acid is not working, see if there are any high vit-C food s you tolerate, or ctry other forms? I don't know if this is verified, but in RBTI, for people who run too acidic to benefit from ascorbic acid, they recommend slow stewed onions (eg onion soup) to supply something like it.

4. Fuel in whatever form you can tolerate, as often as you can handle, preferably actual foods that bring minerals and vitamins. What foods can you actually eat? Different things work for different people - some can/can't tolerate starch/sugar/fat: clear apple juice, other ripe juices, stewed apples, white rice (or even the water it's cooked in). Potatoes boiled to mush, or just the water they've cooked in. Other well-cooked veges. Greasy meat. Butter. Honey?

5. Reduce endotoxin
- Baking soda

Remember baking soda can neutralise stomach acid, so if you take it round meals it can interfere with digestion.
My hunch is that keeping things moving is the most important thing to limit endotoxin, and I think you are using cascara to ensure that?

It was about 20 grams.

I agree about watching out and not overdoing baking soda.
That's a lot if you were taking it regularly. Could have a significant effect on pH, both in the gut where it could affect digestion, and affect the ability of stomach acid to kill pathogens, and also in the whole system if it is not needing it. (I guess you're aware of the hazards of milk-alkali syndrome if supplementing lots of baking soda and calcium.)

 

[raypeatclips]

I already posted how bacterial overgrowth can be an useful adaptation to starvation. This is conserving metabolism, forcing oxidation too fast will probably cause problems. Since you're not consuming dairy, it's safer to use vit D (along with K) in such state.

Many nutrients (such as trace minerals) are excreted through bile and reabsorbed. The body slows down if senses a shortage to extract more nutrition out of foods, which ties in with the bacterial overgrowth. When you consume carrots in that state, it carries nutrients out and I suspect it's a reason why some people report constipation from it.

I believe there is some truth to copper accumulating in slow metabolisms. Ray commented that acid reflux and burning are related to elevated estrogen. People in such state conserve very well and uses very little vitamin A. When you consume liver, you might be force-feeding because it's very rare to crave such food if the metabolism is weak, it's usually unwanted and unneeded. I interpret this as a point against supplementation.

Zinc, gbolduev's manganese, and selenium are synergistic. Iodine from salt can be unreliable. Same for gelatin in broth, unless it's a hard dense block; if you're having trouble, you can try pressure cooked beef tendons.

Are you consuming enough folate?

Zeus has commented that Mitolipin isn't a choline supplement. What about sucholine?

B-vitamins can be therapeutic for sure. There's no need for extra B1 and B2, they will cause imbalances in the long-term, it's rare to be sustainable. I would consider using very low doses of Energin, like 2-4 drops (assuming oral use).
Then having isolated niacinamide and using up to Ray's 100mg but in spread 2-4 doses throughtout the day, because it's also about consistency. Niacinamide supplementation is the only one that is more or less sustainable on its own.
The inclusion of pantothenic acid is not a bad idea.

Riboflavin deficiency is common in hypopboydism. I posted something about it somewhere. It's all tricky because I suspect the body is doing it on purpose, it's refusing to ramp up metabolism to preserve you. That's why activity is so effective, it's a great signal that you can't afford living in such condition and more nutrition is not only desirable, but needed. For example, magnesium supplementation is usually in veiI mean, vain; there's no reason for the body to welcome it if you don't have the working signal, it just passes through and even interferes with the conserving balance.
If you walk during mornings you have the benefit of escaping EM radiation to a certain degree, set a healthy pace for the day and reinforces that it's daytime, worktime.

I would consider some magnesium chloride on the body before activity.
A bit sprinkled on heavy meals substituting part of table salt, or magnesium malate with fruit meals are good options too. Acetate and gluconate forms can be experimented as well.

I would focus on vit D and K, walking plenty (including uphills) with rests.

The good thing about taking the cascara bark instead of emodin is that it's only activated once it comes in contact with bacteria, which makes it excellent to allow you to eat your craved foods without having to deal with the microbial action later on.

Plenty of vit C will help you deal with any viral and bacteria infection better. If you don't have access to good fruits, there's no doubt that supplementing is better than becoming deficient.
Baking soda with orange juice is great but it can be overdone. I think it was j. that made a thread from problems with its consumption.

I would not use Oxidal (caffeine) for now.

I would also consider improving the metabolism first and on later if needed add the antimicrobials. In a weaker state pounding them will only serve to strengthen any present infection.

Regarding Vertigo, it's a semi-bad song in my opinion.

I must like you a lot, what a giant reply. Actually I don't, but it has nothing to do with your skin color, it was just reinforcement. But I do miss pboy.

Very interesting overview and summary of vitamins and minerals. What do you think about energin doses taken topically, if orally you think 2-4 drops is a potentially good amount?