Is Bag Breathing Dangerous? Study Says Sleeping With Head Covered Can Lead To Alzheimers/Dementia

x-ray peat

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Study Relating Dementia to that of Sleeping Practices that restrict air flow near the mouth and nose
Given the results as submitted, there is strong indication that head covering while sleeping has a significant impact on the occurrence and advance of dementia.
  • 92.8% of those who practiced any form of head covering while sleeping will suffer from either an early, middle or late stage of dementia at or after 70 years of age.
  • 100% of those who practiced the most serious levels of head covering (c, d and e above) while sleeping will suffer from either an early, middle or late stage of dementia at or after 70 years of age.
Head covering while sleeping may cause dementia to occur at an earlier age.
  • When comparing uncovered to covered practices, the percentages of those in the middle and late stages of dementia are approximately doubled for those who practice any level of covering (but less so for those 80 and above).
If we consider that this percentage could also be attributed to all levels or stages of dementia, we can assume that 23% of all cases of dementia are due to head covering while sleeping.

However, this percentage may be understated, because it can be assumed that there are other practices while sleeping which can create microenvironments other than just the position of bedding, such as blankets. How a person curls up in bed, how they cuddle next to their spouse, the lack of movement, and other considerations may also lead to temporary microenvironments whereby oxygen can be depleted due to rebreathing.

Dementia Survey Results - Rebreathing


These conclusions were based on an online survey by an MD who specializes in rebreathing issues. Though the research protocols weren't that rigorous I think the overwhelming correlations are still pretty convincing.

This makes me question whether or not we should be practicing bag breathing or buteyko at all
 
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SLM

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"Since bacterial urease in the oral cavity has been found to produce ammonia from oral fluid urea, we hypothesize that oral fluid urea is the origin of mouth-exhaled NH3." https
s://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25080054/

Analysis of breath, exhaled via the mouth and nose, and the air in the oral cavity. Analysis of breath, exhaled via the mouth and nose, and the air in the oral cavity. - PubMed - NCBI

Association between Periodontitis and Alzheimer's Disease Association between Periodontitis and Alzheimer's Disease

Maybe there is a correlation between exhaled volatile substances and Alzheimer's-associated oral pathogens.
 

tankasnowgod

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Well, if you sleep with your head under covers, you could potentially be re-breathing for 8 hours or more. I can see a lot more potential danger in that than doing bag breathing for a few minutes or so. Not only that, but while sleeping, you wouldn't consciously notice any danger signs, and stop the practice at that point.

While this study raises an issue, I don't see it really applying to bag breathing. Has this doctor done a similar survey on bag breathers, buteyko, or doctors who regularly wear surgical masks?
 
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x-ray peat

x-ray peat

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"Since bacterial urease in the oral cavity has been found to produce ammonia from oral fluid urea, we hypothesize that oral fluid urea is the origin of mouth-exhaled NH3." https
s://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25080054/

Analysis of breath, exhaled via the mouth and nose, and the air in the oral cavity. Analysis of breath, exhaled via the mouth and nose, and the air in the oral cavity. - PubMed - NCBI

Association between Periodontitis and Alzheimer's Disease Association between Periodontitis and Alzheimer's Disease

Maybe there is a correlation between exhaled volatile substances and Alzheimer's-associated oral pathogens.
I think you may be on to something. I would thing the extra bacteria and ammonia plus low O2/high CO2 makes quite the toxic soup to breathe in for so long. Maybe sleeping with a fan aimed at your face is a good idea.

btw welcome to the forum :)
 
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x-ray peat

x-ray peat

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Well, if you sleep with your head under covers, you could potentially be re-breathing for 8 hours or more. I can see a lot more potential danger in that than doing bag breathing for a few minutes or so. Not only that, but while sleeping, you wouldn't consciously notice any danger signs, and stop the practice at that point.

While this study raises an issue, I don't see it really applying to bag breathing. Has this doctor done a similar survey on bag breathers, buteyko, or doctors who regularly wear surgical masks?
The risk is definitely much higher from an overnight oxygen deprived state than the few minutes of butyko or bag breathing but that doesnt mean that even a few minutes of oxygen deprivation doesnt cause some brain harm, especially if done several times a day.

I dont know what other research has been done but I know SCUBA divers suffer from all sorts of brain issues later in life. There are other factors at play but low oxygen may be one of them
 
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tankasnowgod

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The risk is definitely much higher from an overnight oxygen deprived state than the few minutes of butyko or bag breathing but that doesnt mean that even a few minutes of oxygen deprivation doesnt cause some brain harm, especially if done several times a day.

I dont know what other research has been done but I know SCUBA divers suffer from all sorts of brain issues later in life. There are other factors at play but low oxygen may be one of them

There is one other potential issue with rebreathing that Andrew Fletcher brought up- moisture. Every exhale contains some water vapor, and as Andrew points out, this is key in making the density of our blood change. Creating an excessively humid micro environment could potentially be an issue as well.
 

nwo2012

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You shouldnt be mouth breathing in the first place. I think this study is a pile of crap, literally. How you can take this seriously, Ive no idea. Unless you actually had humans in a lab setting for the full 70 years or so which isnt going to happen, you can discount these so called results. It's a survey, like the most unreliable 'science'. Yes this is true science because true science is basically a religion.
 
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x-ray peat

x-ray peat

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There is one other potential issue with rebreathing that Andrew Fletcher brought up- moisture. Every exhale contains some water vapor, and as Andrew points out, this is key in making the density of our blood change. Creating an excessively humid micro environment could potentially be an issue as well.
yes, could be too.
 
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x-ray peat

x-ray peat

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You shouldnt be mouth breathing in the first place. I think this study is a pile of crap, literally. How you can take this seriously, Ive no idea. Unless you actually had humans in a lab setting for the full 70 years or so which isnt going to happen, you can discount these so called results. It's a survey, like the most unreliable 'science'. Yes this is true science because true science is basically a religion.
The first sentence is true but that doesnt take away the risk of rebreathing too much CO2 all night.

Thinking that only randomized double blind controlled studies are the only worthwhile experimental evidence is part of this religion of science and a main component for how medicine is controlled. A recent study found that the majority of RDBPC studies cant be replicated. In this light an internet survey isn't so bad, especially if the results are overwhelmingly in one direction.
 

nwo2012

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An internet survey of people with dementia is reliable how exactly? Lol.
Hey Im not saying double blind studies are reliable, or at least the published results.
 

tara

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I haven't read the study, but is it just a correlation study, with nothing to suggest a direction of causation?

People with chronic hyperventilation and other low metabolism issues could be more likely to attempt to remedy by extra rebreathing at night if they instinctively feel that unrestricted breathing causes more distress?

There could also be issues with too much non-fresh air, such as mattress off-gassing etc.
 

aquaman

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I sleep much better with a pillow slightly covering my face/head (with some space for air to come in), since I was young I used to do it.. Only when after reading Peat's stuff did I realise it's from the slightly elevated CO2 situation. I sleep on side and have pillow on top of head.
 

yerrag

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People with chronic hyperventilation and other low metabolism issues could be more likely to attempt to remedy by extra rebreathing at night if they instinctively feel that unrestricted breathing causes more distress?
I was thinking along this line.

I don't also know the state of mind of the people who are responding to the internet survey. Is this a set of people who already have Alzheimer's or dementia? I didn't read the study I admit, but just the excerpts by the OP. Granted they are lucid enough to respond to internet surveys, it is probable that they have subconsciously figured out that the recirculation of CO2 by sleeping under a pillow makes them improve tissue oxygenation, and that this has helped their brain functions well enough to answer internet surveys. But they may not have realized that sleeping under a pillow did not really help them become demented, but actually came about as a response to the body's need for increased tissue oxygenation.
 
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x-ray peat

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I agree this study leaves a lot to be desired but the overwhelmingly high correlations found do suggest that something interesting may be going on. Keep in mind many of Ray’s recommendations come from population based observational studies as well as his clinical observations.

From my understanding he believes that increased CO2 may be good for metabolism and lactic acid reduction but is silent on its effects on brain function.

Moreover much of the human studies that Ray cites are for very minor increases in CO2, like from living at altitude. There is a big difference when compared to the huge orders of magnitude changes in CO2 concentration experienced through bag breathing or sleeping under the covers. The dose makes the poison.

Here are a couple other studies to think about.

Is CO2 an Indoor Pollutant? Direct Effects of Low-to-Moderate CO2 Concentrations on Human Decision-Making Performance
Results: Relative to 600 ppm, at 1,000 ppm CO2, moderate and statistically significant decrements occurred in six of nine scales of decision-making performance. At 2,500 ppm, large and statistically significant reductions occurred in seven scales of decision-making performance (raw score ratios, 0.06–0.56), but performance on the focused activity scale increased.

Association of lung function with cognitive decline and dementia: the Atherosclerosis Risk in Communities (ARIC) Study. - PubMed - NCBI
Reduced lung function was associated with worse performance in cognitive assessments and with an increased risk of dementia hospitalization. Future research should determine whether maintaining optimal pulmonary health might prevent cognitive impairment and dementia.

Hypoxia and Alzheimer disease
Letter to Journal editor:
Prolonged or chronic hypoxia has been shown to alter the excitability and functional expression of ion channels, which possibly contributes to neurodegeneration. Reduced oxygen levels result in the formation of β-amyloid protein through amyloidogenic processing of amyloid precursor protein, leading to upregulation of native L-type calcium channels and disruption of calcium homeostasis.5 Cholinergic neurons may be especially vulnerable to β-amyloid protein toxicity.6 The dysregulated calcium expression following hypoxia in central neurons may contribute to the neurotoxicity of β- amyloid protein and subsequent development of Alzheimer disease.
 
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yerrag

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I agree this study leaves a lot to be desired but the overwhelmingly high correlations found do suggest that something interesting may be going on. Keep in mind many of Ray’s recommendations come from population based observational studies as well as his clinical observations.

From my understanding he believes that increased CO2 may be good for metabolism and lactic acid reduction but is silent on its effects on brain function.

Moreover much of the human studies that Ray cites are for very minor increases in CO2, like from living at altitude. There is a big difference when compared to the huge orders of magnitude changes in CO2 concentration experienced through bag breathing or sleeping under the covers. The dose makes the poison.

Here are a couple other studies to think about.

Is CO2 an Indoor Pollutant? Direct Effects of Low-to-Moderate CO2 Concentrations on Human Decision-Making Performance
Results: Relative to 600 ppm, at 1,000 ppm CO2, moderate and statistically significant decrements occurred in six of nine scales of decision-making performance. At 2,500 ppm, large and statistically significant reductions occurred in seven scales of decision-making performance (raw score ratios, 0.06–0.56), but performance on the focused activity scale increased.

Association of lung function with cognitive decline and dementia: the Atherosclerosis Risk in Communities (ARIC) Study. - PubMed - NCBI
Reduced lung function was associated with worse performance in cognitive assessments and with an increased risk of dementia hospitalization. Future research should determine whether maintaining optimal pulmonary health might prevent cognitive impairment and dementia.

Hypoxia and Alzheimer disease
Letter to Journal editor:
Prolonged or chronic hypoxia has been shown to alter the excitability and functional expression of ion channels, which possibly contributes to neurodegeneration. Reduced oxygen levels result in the formation of β-amyloid protein through amyloidogenic processing of amyloid precursor protein, leading to upregulation of native L-type calcium channels and disruption of calcium homeostasis.5 Cholinergic neurons may be especially vulnerable to β-amyloid protein toxicity.6 The dysregulated calcium expression following hypoxia in central neurons may contribute to the neurotoxicity of β- amyloid protein and subsequent development of Alzheimer disease.

Going in depth on reading is somewhat of a luxury to me these days, so I apologize if I'm not going deeply into the links.

I understand that there are instances when increasing carbon dioxide would not be helpful. When the population involves elderly people, we have to take into account that many have breathing disorders, which makes them retain carbon dioxide more because they could not expel carbon dioxide easily from their lungs. And often, they end up becoming mouth breathers, because breathing through the mouth would be an attempt to expel more carbon dioxide. The elderly population are also more likely to have less functional kidneys, and so their acid-base balance is likely to be compromised. This would make it more necessary for them to expel carbon dioxide thru the lungs, even as their lungs are no longer doing a good job at it.

In such instances, any attempts to improve CO2 retention, or breathing air with higher CO2 composition would worsen their situation. When acid-base balance is difficult, and acidemia or acidosis becomes a chronic condition, how would that impact tissue oxygenation, and what would be the effect on sugar metabolism, or just metabolism in general. When energy production becomes limited, the brain would be certainly affected as the brain uses plenty of energy.

The elderly population are also likely to have been given drugs that further make the balance in their body out of whack. They would already have chronic UTI, for example, and would have become regular users of fluoroquinolone antibiotics to such an extent that the UTI microbes have developed resistance to these drugs. But just Ciprofloxacin and Levofloxacin in themselves would already excite nerve cells too much, and in the absence of enough sugar going to the brain, would mean the nerve cells getting exhausted. Continually exhausting the nerve cells lead to nerve cell death, and this would contribute to Alzheimer's already.

I think there are many confounding factors involved. This comes to understanding the context of each patient, and such studies, even while having merit of sound design and analysis, tend to lump elderly people into one category and lead people to apply rules to elderly people without giving due consideration to their actual health condition. If I were to be their age, in due time, I would resent being pigeon-holed into the group "elderly" and have the method of caring for me restricted into one broad category. That is, if I were indeed to be as fit as a thoroughbred by then.
 
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x-ray peat

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Going in depth on reading is somewhat of a luxury to me these days, so I apologize if I'm not going deeply into the links.

I understand that there are instances when increasing carbon dioxide would not be helpful. When the population involves elderly people, we have to take into account that many have breathing disorders, which makes them retain carbon dioxide more because they could not expel carbon dioxide easily from their lungs. And often, they end up becoming mouth breathers, because breathing through the mouth would be an attempt to expel more carbon dioxide. The elderly population are also more likely to have less functional kidneys, and so their acid-base balance is likely to be compromised. This would make it more necessary for them to expel carbon dioxide thru the lungs, even as their lungs are no longer doing a good job at it.

In such instances, any attempts to improve CO2 retention, or breathing air with higher CO2 composition would worsen their situation. When acid-base balance is difficult, and acidemia or acidosis becomes a chronic condition, how would that impact tissue oxygenation, and what would be the effect on sugar metabolism, or just metabolism in general. When energy production becomes limited, the brain would be certainly affected as the brain uses plenty of energy.

The elderly population are also likely to have been given drugs that further make the balance in their body out of whack. They would already have chronic UTI, for example, and would have become regular users of fluoroquinolone antibiotics to such an extent that the UTI microbes have developed resistance to these drugs. But just Ciprofloxacin and Levofloxacin in themselves would already excite nerve cells too much, and in the absence of enough sugar going to the brain, would mean the nerve cells getting exhausted. Continually exhausting the nerve cells lead to nerve cell death, and this would contribute to Alzheimer's already.

I think there are many confounding factors involved. This comes to understanding the context of each patient, and such studies, even while having merit of sound design and analysis, tend to lump elderly people into one category and lead people to apply rules to elderly people without giving due consideration to their actual health condition. If I were to be their age, in due time, I would resent being pigeon-holed into the group "elderly" and have the method of caring for me restricted into one broad category. That is, if I were indeed to be as fit as a thoroughbred by then.
All interesting theories and some may be true in certain circumstances but in general they are not borne out by the evidence. These studies were not done only on the elderly.
The first study, looking at the effect of different concentrations of CO2 on cognitive abilities, was done on younger people mostly in their 20s.

And the other study broke out results for people under 60 and still showed a strong correlation of risk of dementia with breathing difficulties. Interestingly enough the risk was even worse for younger people. "Impaired lung function at baseline was associated with higher risk of dementia hospitalization during follow-up, particularly amongst younger individuals."
 

tara

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"Impaired lung function at baseline was associated with higher risk of dementia hospitalization during follow-up, particularly amongst younger individuals."
Impaired lung function can be a good reason for extra caution with restricted-breathing methods.
I'd expect hypoxia to have negative effects, especially if it's prolonged.
Studies of high indoor CO12 as a pollutant might be confounded with other factors, like depleted O2 and increases in other constituents that are not being flushed out by sufficient exchange with fresh air. Eg gases etc from printers, furnishings, building and decorating materials etc in offices.

The purpose of short bag-breathing or longer duration slightly increased CO2 rebreathing or retention would be to reduce hypoxia, not increase it. To get that effect, you have to get theO2 and CO2 exchange at suitable rates - not too strong for too long, etc.
 

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