I Need To Be Convinced Of PUFA Being Bad For You

[2thecloudsabove]

Jokes aside, I don't think anybody should be getting that much PUFA if they are serious about their long-term health. 8 cups of 2% milk, 4 commercial eggs (hardboiled) and a 4oz steak is only 4.3g PUFA. How the heck do you even get 10g other than by eating nuts and/or vegetable oil?

4 eggs from free-range non-grain fed chickens account for 5g pufa alone. Meat and milk fat from pastured risen cattle is higher in pufa too. Those foods you mention are for 7-8gr total pufa easy if you eat from healthy animals vs farmed grain feed ones. Another proof less pufa is not always healthier.

 

[managing]

polyunsaturated fats peroxidize

PUFA isn't needed to make hormones, in fact saturated fats make them better

PUFA is pro-aromatase and pro-estrogen in many ways

Haidut's Summary Of PUFA

Start here. Come back with specific questions.

 

[danishispsychic]

I don't think it is our job to "convince " you. Study Dr. Peats work. It took me 3 years to even fully understand. There is not week that goes by these days that something starts finally working on his protocol for me and and I just bow down. He is one of my all time gurus. You'll see.

 

[Glassy]

You could always turn it around and ask why would we need PUFAs in amounts greater than that which is found in breast milk, meat, fruits and vegetables? Grains and nuts contain a fair amount but we’ve only recently been able to produce and refine them to the point of producing oil from them. Most of the fat we have consumed has been saturated until we were told it was bad for us and given margarine and then canola oil to consume. It happens to be cheap and convenient for manufacturers and we’re supposed to also believe we need to supplement fish oil because our ratio of omega 3 to omega 6 is off. Eat old fish oil that’s been filtered (to remove the pungent smell that would naturally put us off it) and isolated from the air to minimise oxidation. It all smells a bit fishy to me

 

[schultz]

4 eggs from free-range non-grain fed chickens account for 5g pufa alone. Meat and milk fat from pastured risen cattle is higher in pufa too. Those foods you mention are for 7-8gr total pufa easy if you eat from healthy animals vs farmed grain feed ones. Another proof less pufa is not always healthier.

It would really depend on where these animals were raised. Tropical forage would be higher in palmitic acid and lower in linoleic and linolenic acid compared to forage from somewhere like Maine. It would also depend on the season and the type of forage being eaten. Parmesan cheese is apparently made using pasture raised animals. 100g of fat from Parmesan has only 2.2g PUFA whereas generic cheddar cheese has 4.3g. That's not really a great comparison since I don't know what the effect the processing and aging has on the PUFA, but it's still noteworthy.

I haven't seen many egg yolk fatty acid profiles of completely range fed hens (completely unsupplemented with any food). It would once again depend on where the hen lives. A commercial egg that is labeled as "free-range non-grain fed" is still supplemented, just not with grain. A very popular thing to add to chicken feed is fishmeal (usually made from Menhaden).

Below shows the fatty acid composition of pork and chicken fat from Tokelau pigs and chickens. The lard is 3.1% and the chicken fat is 3.2% PUFA, and these are animals without rumens.

Another proof less pufa is not always healthier.

In what world is that proof? Are you saying that animals that are raised on pasture are healthier than grain-fed animals strictly because they get more PUFA? Or are you saying that humans that eat products from pastured animals are healthier strictly because of the increased PUFA content of these foods?

 

[Sunny Jack]

You could basically default to the Paleo/Primal fear of Omega 6 and you would avoid the main sources of PUFA such as vegetable oils and things made with them (restaurant meals/frozen ready meals). This still leaves oily fish and fish supplements.

....but if you would be convinced of the Peatmond view that all polyunsaturated fats are bad because "unsaturation means that some hydrogen atoms have been removed, and this opens the structure of the molecule in a way that makes it susceptible to attack by free radicals", then you need to do two things:

1. Firstly, accept that free radicals are bad things, which even mainstream medical science does, so that there shouldn't be too much dissonance between the nutritional propaganda we are constantly bombarded with in the mainstream and the Peatarian position we are at least exploring for various reasons (which can cause a lot of anxiety, the fear that by going against mainstream advice we are needlessly harming ourselves for ideological reasons)
2. Secondly, read what Ray Peat has to say about why PUFAs cause free radical damage, and the studies he cites to back this opinion up (plus explain and counter the reasons why the mainstream pro-PUFA position has become so popular), and ask yourself honestly whether that convinces you.

 

[KnowledgeSeeker]

Quality posts, really. I will have a lot to study about this topic after my final exams. Most posts here are very convincing already though. I'm so thankful.

 

[tara]

I used to believe that PUFA is bad for you without any doubts. Yet lately, I read many contradicting reports. Some were mentioning that babies require PUFA for proper brain development and so does the adult brain. Questions as "Should I give my baby PUFA rich food?" pop up in my head when I read those things.

My non-expert take was that to the extent that some specific dietary EFAs may or may not be necessary for brain development and health, it's quite theoretical, because if you are eating real food it's really hard to avoid getting the amount that may be necessary anyway, even if you were trying quite hard to minimise it.

 

[Cirion]

For what it's worth, another n=1 example here: When I was Keto, I was really addicted to nut butter, I put it in so many things (peanut butter, cashew butter, almond butter), to help me meet my fat macros.

I had lots of weird chronic pains that I couldn't figure out. Back pain, shoulder pains, neck pains. Most of that is gone now with higher carb and little to no PUFA. I did all sorts of things, acupuncture, massage, physical therapy, chiropractic, no one could really figure out my pains, some even said it was in my head.

You could argue that a lot of that was just the fact I was KETO too though. But I think Keto isn't too bad, if you don't eat PUFA. You'll still inhibit your insulin sensitivity on keto though, so knowing what I know now about RP's philosophies, I think keto isn't great long term.

 

[KnowledgeSeeker]

For what it's worth, another n=1 example here: When I was Keto, I was really addicted to nut butter, I put it in so many things (peanut butter, cashew butter, almond butter), to help me meet my fat macros.

I had lots of weird chronic pains that I couldn't figure out. Back pain, shoulder pains, neck pains. Most of that is gone now with higher carb and little to no PUFA. I did all sorts of things, acupuncture, massage, physical therapy, chiropractic, no one could really figure out my pains, some even said it was in my head.

You could argue that a lot of that was just the fact I was KETO too though. But I think Keto isn't too bad, if you don't eat PUFA. You'll still inhibit your insulin sensitivity on keto though, so knowing what I know now about RP's philosophies, I think keto isn't great long term.

I thought keto makes you more insulin sensitive?

 

[Cirion]

I thought keto makes you more insulin sensitive?

No, quite the opposite. Unfortunately, most of the mainstream nutrition "experts" are misguided, and keto seems to be the latest "fad diet" as such. The way I best like to describe it, is using keto to treat diabetes is like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound - it might stem or even stop the bleeding, but the bullet is still in the body, so you still have a problem.

Similarly, keto will help reduce swings in insulin levels, but that doesn't mean you've fixed the problem (insulin resistance). More dietary fat + less carbs = adding more insulin resistance. In fact, a diabetic going keto will be even more insulin resistant than he was before, you just won't see the problem anymore, because he is not intaking carbs, thus no insulin releases. You might even feel really good on keto (I did), but sometimes feeling good is nothing more than a chronic release of adrenaline (stress). This is because the body must release adrenaline in order to synthesize glucose for the brain/liver, and since you're never eating carbs, this is constantly happening, thus making you "feel good" all the time. I lucked out, because I never burned out, probably because I was eating a high caloric intake in general, but a lot of people crash and burn on keto within a few months due to the chronic stressors.

There may be a time and place to put a diabetic temporarily on keto, but from my understanding of Ray Peat (I could be wrong), the answer is to probably treat diabetes with a low/zero fat diet and primarily Fructose (avoiding Glucose as much as possible) due to its ability to bypass the insulin response, and to help "train" the body to use carbs again, slowly introducing glucose back to the diet (probably primarily in the form of Sucrose, so that you're still getting fructose).

I cringe when I see people weight lift on Keto especially. I used to do that, but it's a horrible mistake. If you must do it for whatever reason, you should do cyclical keto diet (CKD), which has you eating carbs around a workout, then you can reduce the damage at least. It's horribly stressful for the body to have to synthesize a large amount of carbohydrate from fat suddenly (aka, during a strenuous workout). Honestly, from what I've learned about nutrition now, I think a CKD is bad too though. True, you're eating carbs you need now, but you're still eating high fat, which is going to inhibit ability to use any carbs you do eat (insulin resistance).

Unfortunately, the popular opinion is that carbs (especially sugar) makes you insulin resistant. Like most over simplistic nutritional statements, the devil is generally in the details. When you combine sugar/carbs with too much dietary fat (in other words, the standard American diet), then yes, it'll make you insulin resistant, because all the FFA's floating in your bloodstream inhibit cell intake of glucose, especially if said FFA's are PUFA's (but even "good" fats like SFA's should be taken in moderation). Example - a candy bar with a lot of nuts in it (PUFA's) is a quick recipe for obesity/diabetes if eaten in excess. Not because of the sugar, but because of the PUFA's.

The truth is the more insulin resistant you are, the MORE carbs you need (not less), the exact opposite of mainstream thought. This is because carbs you intake aren't utilized effectively, requiring further intake to give the cells what they need (glucose). I currently have to eat probably around twice what is needed for a healthy person (I can easily pack away 800g carb in one day, whereas Ray peat only eats around 400g), because I don't utilize carbs effectively.

If your metabolism is healthy, you can tend to handle a little higher intake on fats without the insulin resistance problems. From what I've seen on these forums and from other people I know, you have to be:

1.) Lean (~10% body fat)
2.) Have a healthy liver/gut/etc
3.) Be insulin sensitive

However, most of us on these forums are here because we're unhealthy, and thus don't check any of the above boxes, and need to restrict fat intake until then. many of these factors go hand in hand. For example, just getting lean will improve insulin sensitivity. I think a big part of that is because you've reduced overall fat stores in the body (aka, PUFA).

From personal experience, however, getting lean via purposeful caloric restriction is a mistake. Sure it's a shortcut to getting lean, but it always backfires, because you've achieved lean-ness at the expense of your thyroid health, which defeats the whole point. I will never restrict calories again. Now my goal is to get lean, while not counting calories, and THAT is how you achieve insulin sensitivity, correctly. Try getting mainstream fitness "experts" to get on board with that though... you won't, not any time soon at least. We're always told to eat less and workout harder.

Now I cringe whenever I see people restricting calories to like 2500 a day (as a male), while doing intense lifting programs like 5x5 Stronglifts. That's a very fast way to trash your health. Whenever I've done cuts on 2000-2500 calories a day I always felt like utter garbage, major brain fog, no energy, horrible moods, no motivation etc etc... And yet, protocols like these are coached all the time by experts who should know better. I mean I know why they do it, because it "works" (achieves the goal of lean-ness), but not in a healthy manner. I see even worse protocols for women (I know someone who eats no more than 1500 calories a day, and weight lifts like 5 days a week and does mountains of cardio). Terrible. Anyway, I digress...

 

[EIRE24]

No, quite the opposite. Unfortunately, most of the mainstream nutrition "experts" are misguided, and keto seems to be the latest "fad diet" as such. The way I best like to describe it, is using keto to treat diabetes is like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound - it might stem or even stop the bleeding, but the bullet is still in the body, so you still have a problem.

Similarly, keto will help reduce swings in insulin levels, but that doesn't mean you've fixed the problem (insulin resistance). More dietary fat + less carbs = adding more insulin resistance. In fact, a diabetic going keto will be even more insulin resistant than he was before, you just won't see the problem anymore, because he is not intaking carbs, thus no insulin releases. You might even feel really good on keto (I did), but sometimes feeling good is nothing more than a chronic release of adrenaline (stress). This is because the body must release adrenaline in order to synthesize glucose for the brain/liver, and since you're never eating carbs, this is constantly happening, thus making you "feel good" all the time. I lucked out, because I never burned out, probably because I was eating a high caloric intake in general, but a lot of people crash and burn on keto within a few months due to the chronic stressors.

There may be a time and place to put a diabetic temporarily on keto, but from my understanding of Ray Peat (I could be wrong), the answer is to probably treat diabetes with a low/zero fat diet and primarily Fructose (avoiding Glucose as much as possible) due to its ability to bypass the insulin response, and to help "train" the body to use carbs again, slowly introducing glucose back to the diet (probably primarily in the form of Sucrose, so that you're still getting fructose).

I cringe when I see people weight lift on Keto especially. I used to do that, but it's a horrible mistake. If you must do it for whatever reason, you should do cyclical keto diet (CKD), which has you eating carbs around a workout, then you can reduce the damage at least. It's horribly stressful for the body to have to synthesize a large amount of carbohydrate from fat suddenly (aka, during a strenuous workout). Honestly, from what I've learned about nutrition now, I think a CKD is bad too though. True, you're eating carbs you need now, but you're still eating high fat, which is going to inhibit ability to use any carbs you do eat (insulin resistance).

Unfortunately, the popular opinion is that carbs (especially sugar) makes you insulin resistant. Like most over simplistic nutritional statements, the devil is generally in the details. When you combine sugar/carbs with too much dietary fat (in other words, the standard American diet), then yes, it'll make you insulin resistant, because all the FFA's floating in your bloodstream inhibit cell intake of glucose, especially if said FFA's are PUFA's (but even "good" fats like SFA's should be taken in moderation). Example - a candy bar with a lot of nuts in it (PUFA's) is a quick recipe for obesity/diabetes if eaten in excess. Not because of the sugar, but because of the PUFA's.

If your metabolism is healthy, you can tend to handle a little higher intake on fats without the insulin resistance problems. From what I've seen on these forums and from other people I know, you have to be:

1.) Lean (~10% body fat)
2.) Have a healthy liver/gut/etc
3.) Be insulin sensitive

However, most of us on these forums are here because we're unhealthy, and thus don't check any of the above boxes, and need to restrict fat intake until then. many of these factors go hand in hand. For example, just getting lean will improve insulin sensitivity. I think a big part of that is because you've reduced overall fat stores in the body (aka, PUFA).

From personal experience, however, getting lean via purposeful caloric restriction is a mistake. Sure it's a shortcut to getting lean, but it always backfires, because you've achieved lean-ness at the expense of your thyroid health, which defeats the whole point. I will never restrict calories again. Now my goal is to get lean, while not counting calories, and THAT is how you achieve insulin sensitivity, correctly. Try getting mainstream fitness "experts" to get on board with that though... you won't, not any time soon at least. We're always told to eat less and workout harder.

Now I cringe whenever I see people restricting calories to like 2500 a day (as a male), while doing intense lifting programs like 5x5 Stronglifts. That's a very fast way to trash your health. Whenever I've done cuts on 2000-2500 calories a day I always felt like utter garbage, major brain fog, no energy, horrible moods, no motivation etc etc... And yet, protocols like these are coached all the time by experts who should know better. I mean I know why they do it, because it "works" (achieves the goal of lean-ness), but not in a healthy manner. I see even worse protocols for women (I know someone who eats no more than 1500 calories a day, and weight lifts like 5 days a week and does mountains of cardio). Terrible. Anyway, I digress...

So what is your diet like?

 

[Cirion]

So what is your diet like?

I'm still learning, and would not yet call my diet optimal, but here is what I am liking these days.

Skim milk, OJ, gelatin, grass fed beef, fruit (grapes, raisins, prunes, oranges, apples mostly), whey/maltodextrin shakes, low fat cottage cheese w/ maple syrup, some cheese, coconut oil, shrimp, ice cream.

I'd like to add oysters/liver to my foods, gotta find a local store that sells them. I think bringing caffeine back to my diet has been helping out as well, which I did after reading Haidut's posts on the many benefits of caffeine.

I'm still working out the optimal macronutrient breakdown (for me), but basically trying to keep protein high ish (200g protein, maybe more), and I don't limit carbs/sugar (I have as much as I need to keep my energy up / fatigue down), and keep fats low-ish (50g or so lately, this seems to help me in dropping weight). I decided to swap some fats for protein, after reading posts here on the benefit of high protein in improving insulin sensitivity / liver health (keeping in mind that with high protein, carbs/sugar must also be high to counteract the blood sugar lowering effect of protein).

 

[Jsaute21]

For what it's worth, another n=1 example here: When I was Keto, I was really addicted to nut butter, I put it in so many things (peanut butter, cashew butter, almond butter), to help me meet my fat macros.

I had lots of weird chronic pains that I couldn't figure out. Back pain, shoulder pains, neck pains. Most of that is gone now with higher carb and little to no PUFA. I did all sorts of things, acupuncture, massage, physical therapy, chiropractic, no one could really figure out my pains, some even said it was in my head.

You could argue that a lot of that was just the fact I was KETO too though. But I think Keto isn't too bad, if you don't eat PUFA. You'll still inhibit your insulin sensitivity on keto though, so knowing what I know now about RP's philosophies, I think keto isn't great long term.

I had a similar experience and also used to devour nut butters. I wasn't Keto but definitely eat lower carb than my body needed. I was always someone that felt great on carbs but didn't listen to my body after getting caught up in mainstream/uninformed nutrition circles.

My body recovered like crap while eating high PUFA, sex drive was lower, and had less testosterone. I will never eat high PUFA Again and have really no temptation too. I would stay away for too many reasons to list.

 

[Eric Yim]

polyunsaturated fats peroxidize

PUFA isn't needed to make hormones, in fact saturated fats make them better

PUFA is pro-aromatase and pro-estrogen in many ways

For adults pufas arent as needed compared to a teen going through puberty. Arachadonic acid is essential for growth and development throughout puberty.

 

[Mauritio]

Soybean Oil Is More Obesogenic and Diabetogenic than Coconut Oil and Fructose in Mouse: Potential Role for the Liver

"Compared to mice on the high coconut oil diet, mice on the high soybean oil diet showed increased weight gain, larger fat deposits, a fatty liver with signs of injury, diabetes and insulin resistance, all of which are part of the Metabolic Syndrome."

 

[TeaRex14]

I think there's many ways to approach this, but a complete newb just now finding out about the underground anti PUFA movement should probably read Broda Barnes's book Solved The Riddle of Heart Attacks. I know Ray Peat is kind of like the king of anti PUFA, but I think Broda's argument would be uniquely convincing to someone who's mind is still completely open to the subject. He addresses how all mammalian organisms have adipose tissues that are primarily saturated, or should be anyways. With modern lifestyles our tissues aren't that saturated anymore, they're becoming increasingly more and more unsaturated. But we're warm blooded, and thus need saturated not unsaturated fats. I think the biological anatomical explanation appeals to basic logic much better than getting into cellular physiology, which is what Ray does.

 

[oburns]

You or your baby will get 5 -10 grams of PUFA (a day) anyway from egg yolks and other animal fats unless you go into quite restrictive orange juice/fruits and low-fat dairy/milk diet. No need to start eat nuts, avocados and vegetable oil on purpose ... Maybe some fatty fish can be added to diet in winter; as it carries lot of vitamin D and taurine... Seems pretty unnatural if you supplement vitamin D to get your 100% of RDA which is a small amount in itself.

Don't confuse PUFA with saturated fat. Animal fats are saturated fats. (good for energy, making steroid hormones for cholesterol, brain energy and more.
PUFA are polyunsaturated chemically processed rancid seed oils and not a stable fat.

 

[michael94]

Don't confuse PUFA with saturated fat. Animal fats are saturated fats. (good for energy, making steroid hormones for cholesterol, brain energy and more.
PUFA are polyunsaturated chemically processed rancid seed oils and not a stable fat.

Chemically processed doesnt make them bad, for example coconut oil is deodorized and refined chemically. Also being rancid upon consumption isnt why they are toxic, as even fresh un rancid oil isnt much safer. Just in case anyone in real life wants to red herring your arguments for Pufa being toxic.

 

[oburns]

Chemically processed doesnt make them bad, for example coconut oil is deodorized and refined chemically. Also being rancid upon consumption isnt why they are toxic, as even fresh un rancid oil isnt much safer. Just in case anyone in real life wants to red herring your arguments for Pufa being toxic.

Yes some coconut oils are deodorized but not processed enough for the oil to stay in 100% liquid state. It is still turns solid in cold temperature, the other oils do not.
Saturated fatty acids terminate the stress reactions, polyunsaturated fatty acids amplify them

When the oils enter our bloodstream they oxidise and wreck havoc on immune & gut health, very inflammatory.