How To Lose Fat Safely

[ecstatichamster]

Is this a critique or defense of Penn's weight loss success?
I think he was on at least 4 meds, with high blood pressure that put him in the hospital more than 1 time.

No I think he was smart to address his problem but I don't know that it was the "best" way of doing it.

 

[RobertJM]

Why would you eat much in the way of fat from another animal or plant if you're trying to lose your own body fat? At least thats how I see it.

I wasn't talking about fat loss. I was just on about a lower fat diet, and how that affects things with the bile (a detoxification pathway in the body). I was digressing away from the subject at hand, but my reply was geared towards Michael, as he started talking about 'cholesterol stones'.

 

[cyclops]

I wasn't talking about fat loss. I was just on about a lower fat diet, and how that affects things with the bile (a detoxification pathway in the body). I was digressing away from the subject at hand, but my reply was geared towards Michael, as he started talking about 'cholesterol stones'.

Oh I see. I'd agree that a very low fat diet (or limiting any macro) is not ideal for long term if you are healthy.

 

[dbh25]

No I think he was smart to address his problem but I don't know that it was the "best" way of doing it.

You contradict yourself because you've said that people end up worse after losing the weight even if it's done slow but now you're just saying that it's fine as long as it's done slow? Which is it?

And for the adipose apologists here who that claim that Jillette "looked better" when he was fat, you should actually read his book. His was near death. Now he's not and much happier. The guy he worked with, Ray Cronise, is working on debunking the nonsense that fast wight loss is "bad" and that the metabolic rate "slows."

Which is it? Don't lose weight or do it slowly?
I read the book also. No doubt he is better off, with rapid weight loss.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Which is it? Don't lose weight or do it slowly?
I read the book also. No doubt he is better off, with rapid weight loss.

Yeah, not sure. I wouldn't be able to say. I mean, he might have lost over 2 years and been better off. Who knows.

 

[DrJ]

Really great topic and one I've spent a lot of time wondering about, although not with great progress. Hopefully more folks can share their knowledge.

I think you're exactly right about losing fat too quickly (with the qualification that the fat loss is by lipolysis). If a calorie deficit induces lipolysis, then you'll have a lot of free fatty-acids floating around the blood. This is stressful to the body (it is the condition produced by cortisol) and suppresses thyroid and thus metabolism. I believe Ray says this is estrogenic and a high level of free fatty-acids is associated with cancer. Stopping the calorie deficit will then pretty easily induce weight gain because your metabolism is suppressed and you are probably not producing much thyroid unless you take certain measures.

The key, I think, would be to understand how you can eliminate fat without cortisol-induced lipolysis, if possible. I have tried to research this without much luck. There is quite a bit of research that says fat is eliminated through the lungs, but they don't outline how it gets there. I.e. is it only through lipolysis->lung excretion, or are there other pathways? I also wonder, can a healthy, unburdened liver remove fat from the body safely? If insulin and cortisol can induce fat storage, is fat somehow eliminated if they are not present? I haven't found definitive answers.

To those saying bile is estrogenic, I don't think this is correct. Ray says that the liver eliminates estrogen in bile (all steroids are cholesterol-based, and bile salts are conjugated from cholesterol), so low bile flow or slow digestion causes the bile to hang around and the estrogen is re-absorbed. This is one of the reasons behind recommending raw carrot because it keeps things moving and absorbs and helps excrete bile, beyond its antibacterial properties. My personal experience reflects that eating too low fat of a diet leads to symptoms of low bile flow and I feel overall very crappy.

Confounding my understanding of what is going on, I have recently been experimenting with a high saturated fat diet because I had noticed some benefits to my digestion when trying a few high doses previously, mostly from dairy cream. I have been consuming at least 60g of saturated fat from coconut oil for 2 weeks, but same overall calorie consumption (and roughly same calcium/phosphate ratio - above 1.0); basically replacing most of one meal with coconut oil. I have lost 4.5lb in those two weeks. I look noticeably leaner and with better muscle definition despite that small-ish weight loss, and noticed the ladies checking me out more. I also feel pretty amazing. For 3 hours afterwards I get ridiculously hot. I am super calm (or level-headed), but full of energy if that makes sense. I become a total outgoing social animal, which has not generally been my disposition. Something is definitely happening. If I am keeping the same calorie intake (and same protein intake as I replaced carbs with fat) that had previously maintained my weight, then what is causing me to lose weight? Of course, Ray has written a lot about the benefits of saturated fat, especially from coconut oil (but mostly as it being correlated to weight loss), but I suspect that there is something else going on related to what I perceive to be a good, high metabolism induced by the coconut oil, and I also suspect it is somehow related to removing fat, since I've achieved weight loss before, but not with the associated significant leanness I am seeing. I want to understand the mechanism and really wish I could figure it out, but I'm going to keep my experiment going for at least a month, if not stay on this level of saturated fat for life if the outcome continues to be positive. Really wish I had taken the coconut oil writings more seriously sooner. Stuff is pretty cheap :)

 

[Tarmander]

Really great topic and one I've spent a lot of time wondering about, although not with great progress. Hopefully more folks can share their knowledge.

I think you're exactly right about losing fat too quickly (with the qualification that the fat loss is by lipolysis). If a calorie deficit induces lipolysis, then you'll have a lot of free fatty-acids floating around the blood. This is stressful to the body (it is the condition produced by cortisol) and suppresses thyroid and thus metabolism. I believe Ray says this is estrogenic and a high level of free fatty-acids is associated with cancer. Stopping the calorie deficit will then pretty easily induce weight gain because your metabolism is suppressed and you are probably not producing much thyroid unless you take certain measures.

The key, I think, would be to understand how you can eliminate fat without cortisol-induced lipolysis, if possible. I have tried to research this without much luck. There is quite a bit of research that says fat is eliminated through the lungs, but they don't outline how it gets there. I.e. is it only through lipolysis->lung excretion, or are there other pathways? I also wonder, can a healthy, unburdened liver remove fat from the body safely? If insulin and cortisol can induce fat storage, is fat somehow eliminated if they are not present? I haven't found definitive answers.

To those saying bile is estrogenic, I don't think this is correct. Ray says that the liver eliminates estrogen in bile (all steroids are cholesterol-based, and bile salts are conjugated from cholesterol), so low bile flow or slow digestion causes the bile to hang around and the estrogen is re-absorbed. This is one of the reasons behind recommending raw carrot because it keeps things moving and absorbs and helps excrete bile, beyond its antibacterial properties. My personal experience reflects that eating too low fat of a diet leads to symptoms of low bile flow and I feel overall very crappy.

Confounding my understanding of what is going on, I have recently been experimenting with a high saturated fat diet because I had noticed some benefits to my digestion when trying a few high doses previously, mostly from dairy cream. I have been consuming at least 60g of saturated fat from coconut oil for 2 weeks, but same overall calorie consumption (and roughly same calcium/phosphate ratio - above 1.0); basically replacing most of one meal with coconut oil. I have lost 4.5lb in those two weeks. I look noticeably leaner and with better muscle definition despite that small-ish weight loss, and noticed the ladies checking me out more. I also feel pretty amazing. For 3 hours afterwards I get ridiculously hot. I am super calm (or level-headed), but full of energy if that makes sense. I become a total outgoing social animal, which has not generally been my disposition. Something is definitely happening. If I am keeping the same calorie intake (and same protein intake as I replaced carbs with fat) that had previously maintained my weight, then what is causing me to lose weight? Of course, Ray has written a lot about the benefits of saturated fat, especially from coconut oil (but mostly as it being correlated to weight loss), but I suspect that there is something else going on related to what I perceive to be a good, high metabolism induced by the coconut oil, and I also suspect it is somehow related to removing fat, since I've achieved weight loss before, but not with the associated significant leanness I am seeing. I want to understand the mechanism and really wish I could figure it out, but I'm going to keep my experiment going for at least a month, if not stay on this level of saturated fat for life if the outcome continues to be positive. Really wish I had taken the coconut oil writings more seriously sooner. Stuff is pretty cheap :)

I have noticed the same with coconut oil, and especially MCTs. My sense is that the large amount of fat gives the fuel necessary to sustain the metabolism, where as a low fat diet, without good glycogen, runs out pretty quick. I know when I did low fat I was literally constantly eating and my body had a tough time keeping blood sugar up. Taking something to increase metabolism at that time was idiotic as it would just cause low blood sugar and a spike in adrenaline. The sat fat let’s your body increase its metabolism and keep it up.

 

[cyclops]

My personal experience reflects that eating too low fat of a diet leads to symptoms of low bile flow and I feel overall very crappy.

What are the symptoms of low bile flow?

 

[cyclops]

I think you gotta go very low fat and eat constantly if thats what you gotta do. You need the carbs to prevent muscle loss. Anytime I went low carb I lost fat, but also lost a ton of muscle.

I may try adding a bit more coconut oil to my very low fat diet though. I do think coconut oil is special.

 

[Lurker]

I may try adding a bit more coconut oil to my very low fat diet though. I do think coconut oil is special.

The MCTs in coconut oil are unique in that they are readily absorbed without the need of bile to emulsify it. So yes, it's special. I have read Ray mention teaspoon quantities but haven't seen him recommend it as a meal replacement as mentioned above.

 

[managing]

Really great topic and one I've spent a lot of time wondering about, although not with great progress. Hopefully more folks can share their knowledge.

I think you're exactly right about losing fat too quickly (with the qualification that the fat loss is by lipolysis). If a calorie deficit induces lipolysis, then you'll have a lot of free fatty-acids floating around the blood. This is stressful to the body (it is the condition produced by cortisol) and suppresses thyroid and thus metabolism. I believe Ray says this is estrogenic and a high level of free fatty-acids is associated with cancer. Stopping the calorie deficit will then pretty easily induce weight gain because your metabolism is suppressed and you are probably not producing much thyroid unless you take certain measures.

The key, I think, would be to understand how you can eliminate fat without cortisol-induced lipolysis, if possible. I have tried to research this without much luck. There is quite a bit of research that says fat is eliminated through the lungs, but they don't outline how it gets there. I.e. is it only through lipolysis->lung excretion, or are there other pathways? I also wonder, can a healthy, unburdened liver remove fat from the body safely? If insulin and cortisol can induce fat storage, is fat somehow eliminated if they are not present? I haven't found definitive answers.

To those saying bile is estrogenic, I don't think this is correct. Ray says that the liver eliminates estrogen in bile (all steroids are cholesterol-based, and bile salts are conjugated from cholesterol), so low bile flow or slow digestion causes the bile to hang around and the estrogen is re-absorbed. This is one of the reasons behind recommending raw carrot because it keeps things moving and absorbs and helps excrete bile, beyond its antibacterial properties. My personal experience reflects that eating too low fat of a diet leads to symptoms of low bile flow and I feel overall very crappy.

Confounding my understanding of what is going on, I have recently been experimenting with a high saturated fat diet because I had noticed some benefits to my digestion when trying a few high doses previously, mostly from dairy cream. I have been consuming at least 60g of saturated fat from coconut oil for 2 weeks, but same overall calorie consumption (and roughly same calcium/phosphate ratio - above 1.0); basically replacing most of one meal with coconut oil. I have lost 4.5lb in those two weeks. I look noticeably leaner and with better muscle definition despite that small-ish weight loss, and noticed the ladies checking me out more. I also feel pretty amazing. For 3 hours afterwards I get ridiculously hot. I am super calm (or level-headed), but full of energy if that makes sense. I become a total outgoing social animal, which has not generally been my disposition. Something is definitely happening. If I am keeping the same calorie intake (and same protein intake as I replaced carbs with fat) that had previously maintained my weight, then what is causing me to lose weight? Of course, Ray has written a lot about the benefits of saturated fat, especially from coconut oil (but mostly as it being correlated to weight loss), but I suspect that there is something else going on related to what I perceive to be a good, high metabolism induced by the coconut oil, and I also suspect it is somehow related to removing fat, since I've achieved weight loss before, but not with the associated significant leanness I am seeing. I want to understand the mechanism and really wish I could figure it out, but I'm going to keep my experiment going for at least a month, if not stay on this level of saturated fat for life if the outcome continues to be positive. Really wish I had taken the coconut oil writings more seriously sooner. Stuff is pretty cheap :)

You might consider starting a thread dedicated to this and keep a running record. I've found it most informative when somebody just posts updates every few days about their recent experience. If you do, come back here and let people know you did.

 

[Elie]

Interesting comments. You say you worked with a lot of people. Are you a practitioner? How long have you worked with this?

As you may know, I have discussed how I am losing fat slowly and how I believe most fat loss is dangerous unless it is very slow.

I don't know why it is dangerous but my observation in working with a lot of people is that over time, almost everyone who loses weight ends up getting cancer or some other problem.

Now, I am not talking about a 22-year-old here.

I'm talking about older people who have a slow metabolism and have metabolic issues already. But they are brainwashed like everyone that losing weight is the holy Grail and the answer to all their problems. In reality, losing weight is probably deadly to most of them. They lose a lot of lean mass, and end up very sick or dead.

Anyway, I am middle-aged and I went from around 215 to about 202 over the past year. And over the next year I plan to be around 185. Sorry for you metric folk, but these are pounds.

The secret is this in my opinion: The body really does have a set weight. It wants to stay there. Homeostasis.

However, when you lose some weight through calorie restriction, you can then stabilize at that lower weight and your body will want to stay at that new lower weight, as that will become your new set weight.

BUT NOT IF YOU LOSE TOO FAST. If you lose too fast, it is just easy to get it all back because your body never adjusts to a lower set weight. I think you need about two or three weeks or a month or even six weeks to settle into a new set weight.

So basically losing pounds is a matter of lowering your set weight step-by-step. Not in a gradual way but in an incremental way. Like a stair step.

Go from 202 to 200. Stay at 200 for a month then go to 198. And so forth. That's my approach and I think that it is safe and also effective.

Now that my set weight is a bit lower, whenever I go out to eat or things that would've caused me to gain weight, I just don't gain weight anymore and I stay around 202.

In any event, losing weight slowly is safe and I think may be 1 pound or maybe 1 1/2 pounds a month is probably about right.

If you are extremely obese, which I am not, then you might be better off losing two or 3 pounds a month but even that would probably be very stressful and dangerous. And you must lose and then stabilize, lose and then stabilize, for it to be safe AND permanent.

 

[superhuman]

That people on the ray peat forum are afraid of loosing fat when they already have to much fat on them is just crazy to me. And many of them eat in a surplus which makes them gain even more fat and as we know most of people here do not consume only 2g of PUFA a day or less so the stored fat ends up being PUFA. RP has said countless of time how he likes to approach fat loss and yes its super simple and you can go very low calories which means you drop fat quite fast but people just ignore that and want to find another excuse on why they are fat or why they cant loose the fat etc etc. The theory is very very easy but its hard in practice because you cant just stuff your face like you are used to and eat all the delicious high sugar, high fat stuff anymore except if you control yourself which is never fun when you want to eat the whole cake instead of just a bite.

 

[dbh25]

you can go very low calories which means you drop fat quite fast but people just ignore that and want to find another excuse on why they are fat or why they cant loose the fat etc etc

Yes

 

[fradon]

+1

This is what losing 100lbs in 100 days looks like. Mainly potato + low carb + caloric restriction.

he looked healthier fat...

 

[dbh25]

he looked healthier fat...

In the hospital more than once with hypertension, systolic blood pressure over 200, taking meds for blood pressure . . .

 

[DrJ]

What are the symptoms of low bile flow?

Buddy I would love to find my best Shakespearean hat, put it on, and proceed to make an awful thing sound like a literary masterpiece. To put lipstick on a pig as they say. But I can't, and it's awful, and you should just google it :). If you find the adjective "clay colored" you've hit pay dirt.

@managing Good idea. I like to be careful about starting new threads, but I will see if I can't take you up on that recommendation.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Losing fat fast is a recipe for lowering metabolism, losing lean mass, and if you are older, never recovering.

It's probably not going to kill you if you are 20.

But if you are 50, you may have problems recovering from it.

But you can go ahead and pretend that Peat says it's a good idea to lose weight fast.

I have read him extensively and never heard him say that or read that in any of his interviews or writings.

You are again very confused between BEING fat and LOSING fat. Nobody argues it's good to BE FAT. But LOSING fat is much more difficult because of the metabolic consequences.

Most people who are FAT and even middle aged (40 or older, let's say) have numerous metabolic problems already.

Losing fat makes their metabolism WORSE. Maybe it's PUFAs draining into their bloodstream. Maybe it's stored toxins now mobilized from the fat loss. Who knows.

We can look at the Biggest Loser to see the terrible effects of dramatic and fast weight loss.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/oby.21538/full

Of the 16 “Biggest Loser” competitors originally investigated, 14 participated in this follow-up study. Weight loss at the end of the competition was (mean ± SD) 58.3 ± 24.9 kg (P < 0.0001), and RMR decreased by 610 ± 483 kcal/day (P = 0.0004). After 6 years, 41.0 ± 31.3 kg of the lost weight was regained (P = 0.0002), while RMR was 704 ± 427 kcal/day below baseline (P < 0.0001) and metabolic adaptation was −499 ± 207 kcal/day (P < 0.0001). Weight regain was not significantly correlated with metabolic adaptation at the competition's end (r = −0.1, P = 0.75), but those subjects maintaining greater weight loss at 6 years also experienced greater concurrent metabolic slowing (r = 0.59, P = 0.025).

Conclusions
Metabolic adaptation persists over time and is likely a proportional, but incomplete, response to contemporaneous efforts to reduce body weight.​

 

[cyclops]

Losing fat fast is a recipe for lowering metabolism, losing lean mass, and if you are older, never recovering.

It's probably not going to kill you if you are 20.

But if you are 50, you may have problems recovering from it.

But you can go ahead and pretend that Peat says it's a good idea to lose weight fast.

I have read him extensively and never heard him say that or read that in any of his interviews or writings.

You are again very confused between BEING fat and LOSING fat. Nobody argues it's good to BE FAT. But LOSING fat is much more difficult because of the metabolic consequences.

Most people who are FAT and even middle aged (40 or older, let's say) have numerous metabolic problems already.

Losing fat makes their metabolism WORSE. Maybe it's PUFAs draining into their bloodstream. Maybe it's stored toxins now mobilized from the fat loss. Who knows.

We can look at the Biggest Loser to see the terrible effects of dramatic and fast weight loss.

Persistent metabolic adaptation 6 years after “The Biggest Loser” competition

Of the 16 “Biggest Loser” competitors originally investigated, 14 participated in this follow-up study. Weight loss at the end of the competition was (mean ± SD) 58.3 ± 24.9 kg (P < 0.0001), and RMR decreased by 610 ± 483 kcal/day (P = 0.0004). After 6 years, 41.0 ± 31.3 kg of the lost weight was regained (P = 0.0002), while RMR was 704 ± 427 kcal/day below baseline (P < 0.0001) and metabolic adaptation was −499 ± 207 kcal/day (P < 0.0001). Weight regain was not significantly correlated with metabolic adaptation at the competition's end (r = −0.1, P = 0.75), but those subjects maintaining greater weight loss at 6 years also experienced greater concurrent metabolic slowing (r = 0.59, P = 0.025).

Conclusions
Metabolic adaptation persists over time and is likely a proportional, but incomplete, response to contemporaneous efforts to reduce body weight.

I don't think anyone is arguing that undergoing the process of LOSING fat is stressful. When you are fat you are just leading your fat life, but when you are actively losing fat you are doing something stressful to the body, dealing with toxins, lowering metabolism, etc. This is extremely obvious.

Maybe even after you lose the fat there will be some time afterwards when you are still recovering, so it will seem like losing fat made you unhealthy. But if you do things the right way, and continue to do thing the right way after you lose the fat, I think a person will recover and be better off in the long term.

The people who crash diet and don't understand how to eat afterwards shouldn't be mentioned. Of course they will fail, they don't know what they're doing.

I don't think it is good to make it sound that fat people should stay fat. They should get somewhat healthy and when ready lose the fat. People who understand what they are doing and are careful I think will be better of longterm from losing body fat.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I don't think it is good to make it sound that fat people should stay fat. They should get somewhat healthy and when ready lose the fat. People who understand what they are doing and are careful I think will be better of longterm from losing body fat.

Yes probably. But it isn't a sure thing. There is a vast social machine at work convincing people the answer to their problems is losing weight, and I believe that is very harmful.

It's very difficult to lose weight safely if you are middle aged or older.