How Much Sodium Is In The Diet? Is The RDA For Sodium Too High?

[Travis]

The people mentioned in the article felt unwell enough to seek medical attention Travis. That implies to me that their condition was serious. Should they have waited to see a doctor until they were completely bald and their heart arrhythmia became life threatening? Maybe some did and that prompted the formal investigation of what what occurring in their bodies. I just don’t understand how you can persist in this line of argument in light of the apparent facts. If nothing else, the trend seems to indicate that people should exercise caution and not over consume until there is definitive resolution of this issue.

As I said before, the common sense approach of moderate consumption of kale and other crucifers is probably the key to avoiding an adverse result. This sentiment is also echoed in the article.

I am obviously talking about your associate who had 'almost died' from 'eating kale,' and not the people in that article. Could you tell us more about that person?

 

[Nicole W.]

Not in the slightest. I am not concerned with the trace amounts of thallium in kale and if this were expressed per unit calcium and magnesium—which competes with thallium for absorption—it appears even less significant. True that animals generally—there certainly are exceptions—have less cadmium and thallium in their bodies, but they also have less competing divalent cations.

You have to be critical about this stuff because there are thousands of people working for 'brand protection' and 'public relations' corporations online as well speak. On paper, they work in the 'social media' domain but judging by some comments on this website you'd have to assume that they post comments as well. But honestly, you're comment history gives little reason for suspicion but I had just now looked at that.

No, this is the beginning of the story: Who was this person? was this on the news? or how did you hear of this lady? To almost die from food toxicity—not from a chronic disease nor anaphylactically—in the United States is so rare that we need to know more about it.

Intially I did hear it on the news because it was a local story. It was on all the networks at the time. It peaked my interest since I also consume kale so I looked further into it and the possibility of contamination seemed perfectly plausible to me. Certainly not something I wanted to hear, but it did make me re-evaluate my heavier consumption of any food—no matter how seemingly healthy—because I really don’t know everything about what I put in my mouth. Nobody does.

 

[Nicole W.]

I am obviously talking about your associate who had 'almost died' from 'eating kale,' and not the people in that article. Could you tell us more about that person?

Oh, Travis. She’s not my friend, nor an associate. She is someone who was featured in a story that took place in the SF Bay Area where I live. Basically, her story was used as a cautionary tale of sorts and an alert to the public that perhaps kale has a dark side.

I always joke that kale (and other crucifers) are like that new guy that you’re considering for hire that has the most amazing CV: Graduated Summa Cum Laude, amazing athlete, student government president, volunteers his time to Habitat for Humanity. But then you interview him and realize he’s a real f***in’ arrogant prick in real life. Could Kale be the vegetable equivalent? Maybe.

 

[Travis]

Intially I did hear it on the news because it was a local story. It was on all the networks at the time. It peaked my interest since I also consume kale so I looked further into it and the possibility of contamination seemed perfectly plausible to me. Certainly not something I wanted to hear, but it did make me re-evaluate my heavier consumption of any food—no matter how seemingly healthy—because I really don’t know everything about what I put in my mouth. Nobody does.

Was this the same lady as in the Todd Oppenheimer article?

 

[Nicole W.]

Was this the same lady as in the Todd Oppenheimer article?

Yes, I suspect it might be.

 

[Travis]

Upon further analysis: it appears that this Ernie Hubbard guy is somewhat of a quack, or a flake at the least. For more information on Hubbard's claims of urine thallium concentrations impossible-to-achieve-by-kale-ingestion in one Laura Fenmore please read the following (really won't take more than a few minutes):

BCRE8TVE. "An informative Reddit post.' Reddit (2016)
Belluz, J. "The viral idea that kale is bad for you is based on incredibly bad science." Vox (2015)​

 

[Nicole W.]

Upon further analysis: it appears that this Ernie Hubbard guy is somewhat of a quack, or a flake at the least. For more information on Hubbard's claims of urine thallium concentrations impossible-to-achieve-by-kale-ingestion in one Laura Fenmore please read the following (really won't take more than a few minutes):

BCRE8TVE. "An informative Reddit post.' Reddit (2016)
Belluz, J. "The viral idea that kale is bad for you is based on incredibly bad science." Vox (2015)​

The authors of The Vegetable Detective part 2 address the Vox article, and the scientist himself fired off a 13 page rebuttal in response to the claims made by Vox. Haven’t had a chance to look at the Reddit post yet but I’ll definitely check it out. Nothing would make me happier to know that kale poses no risk to health, Travis. Just like you, I eat the stuff too! But so far, that has not been definitively established so to be on the safe side I’m going with moderation.

 

[Nicole W.]

The authors of The Vegetable Detective part 2 address the Vox article, and the scientist himself fired off a 13 page rebuttal in response to the claims made by Vox. Haven’t had a chance to look at the Reddit post yet but I’ll definitely check it out. Nothing would make me happier to know that kale poses no risk to health, Travis. Just like you, I eat the stuff too! But so far, that has not been definitively established so to be on the safe side I’m going with moderation.

Btw, did you read Part 2 of the article? Apparently, Ernie has 30 years of scientific credentials. He also elucidated his methodologies and revealed his reasons for changing labs. After the rebuttal Vox chose to retract many of their claims. There is more about this in Part 2 of the article, but basically the authors concluded that he was not a quack nor a flake, that he had good science supporting his assertions.

 

[Amazoniac]

Some cruciferous of the vegetables improve detoxification, so it would make sense if people exposed to more toxins consumed them often.

Vegetables, etc.—Who Defines Food? "Cd"

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03601239909373221​

 

[InChristAlone]

Some cruciferous of the vegetables improve detoxification, so it would make sense if people exposed to more toxins consumed them often.

Vegetables, etc.—Who Defines Food? "Cd"

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03601239909373221​

Why you reference a Peat article clearly in opposition to plants because of the chemicals they contain after saying they help detox? Has Peat said to consume more crucifers for detox? He clearly says in that article to consume more protein not vegetables.

 

[Travis]

Btw, did you read Part 2 of the article? Apparently, Ernie has 30 years of scientific credentials. He also elucidated his methodologies and revealed his reasons for changing labs. After the rebuttal Vox chose to retract many of their claims. There is more about this in Part 2 of the article, but basically the authors concluded that he was not a quack nor a flake, that he had good science supporting his assertions.

Yes, and I had found it rather unsubstantial.

Oppenheimer, T. 'The Vegetable Detective, Take Two.' Craftsmanship Quarterly (2015)​

With nothing but the vague allusion to his 'rebuttal to the Vox story, which, among other things, listed his 30-plus years of scientific credentials' as indication of his purported 30+ years of scientific credentials. I cannot find any articles by him on Google Scholar and his website has no indication of what had transpired during these 30+ years of 'scientific excellence,' although the Craftsmanship Quarterly article does state that he'd worked at Preventive Medical Center of Marin (an alternative health clinic).

This is it. Laura Fenmore could be whoever Ernie Hubbard and Craftsmanship Quarterly says that she is, with a name that is no doubt shared by thousands of California inhabitants. People can get poisoned by thallium in a variety of different ways; and statistically, a few of such cases would also coincidentally be eating Brassica species. Taking the thallium concentrations found in commercial kale as factual (page 4), such a thing would never occur by eating farmed kale—but only remedial kale, or that explicitly planted on industrial non-farm sites to help 'detoxify the soil.'

I think there is an equal probability that Laura Fenmore and Ernie Hubbard contrived a story to gain business for Preventive Medical Center of Marin than to actually believe that Laura had lost 'hair in clumps' with a urinary thallium level of 700·ppb, derived mostly from juicing cabbage and kale.

 

[Nicole W.]

I'll take the results of

Yes, and I had found it rather unsubstantial.

Oppenheimer, T. 'The Vegetable Detective, Take Two.' Craftsmanship Quarterly (2015)​

With nothing but the vague allusion to his 'rebuttal to the Vox story, which, among other things, listed his 30-plus years of scientific credentials' as indication of his purported 30+ years of scientific credentials. I cannot find any articles by him on Google Scholar and his website has no indication of what had transpired during these 30+ years of 'scientific excellence,' although the Craftsmanship Quarterly article does state that he'd worked at Preventive Medical Center of Marin (an alternative health clinic).

This is it. Laura Fenmore could be whoever Ernie Hubbard and Craftsmanship Quarterly says that she is, with a name that is no doubt shared by thousands of California inhabitants. People can get poisoned by thallium in a variety of different ways; and statistically, a few of such cases would also coincidentally be eating Brassica species. Taking the thallium concentrations found in commercial kale as factual (page 4), such a thing would never occur by eating farmed kale—but only remedial kale, or that explicitly planted on industrial non-farm sites to help 'detoxify the soil.'

I think there is an equal probability that Laura Fenmore and Ernie Hubbard contrived a story to gain business for Preventive Medical Center of Marin than to actually believe that Laura had lost 'hair in clumps' with a urinary thallium level of 700·ppb, derived mostly from juicing cabbage and kale.

I think you could be right, there is that chance. It’s amazing what people will resort to for financial gain. Also, a lot of people eat kale in raw form and in high volume (as in juicing) and that may have a deleterious effect on thyroid function. I noticed there are some symptoms of thallium toxicity that are in common to the symptoms of low thyroid function. Maybe an unbalanced diet is the bigger culprit behind these people’s symptoms.

 

[Amazoniac]

Why you reference a Peat article clearly in opposition to plants because of the chemicals they contain after saying they help detox? Has Peat said to consume more crucifers for detox? He clearly says in that article to consume more protein not vegetables.

Two reasons:
letter 1) Because there's usually the other side of the story that I try not to ignore.
letter 2) Cruciferous vegetables do increase detoxification, and if they happen to be contributing at the same time to intoxication, it's a soil problem (like Travisord mentioned).

Of course the more contaminated it is, the worse it gets, but if you consume the fiber along, it makes everything harder to absorb and it can be a good thing: effort will be put in extracting only what's desired and rejecting what isn't and letting it just pass through. Now to derail the thread once and for all, this is why carrots must be good before a dental procedure: whatever happens to be ingested will be carried out with more ease, instead of a long exposure with greater chances of absorption.

 

[Travis]

I had asked Ernie Hubbard about Laura Fenmore, and the best documentation he could come-up with had been these two attached Microsoft Powerpoint™ documents. These files allow one see the extent of his operation and see just how crude it was; he had basically just used hydrochloric acid and a blender in his 'lab' (a.k.a. kitchen) and had sent the liquid fraction to a chemist. The number of kale samples with thallium above the limit of detection was similar to that on the previous page—about one in five—and the levels were never alarmingly-high.

Brassica is routinely fed to livestock. The by-product of pressing CANOLA oil [Canadian Oil; Low (erucic) Acid] are generally fed to cattle; yet this does not 'bioaccumulate' up the foodchain as Hubbard implies. The competing ions should keep much of any small from being absorbed, and we are constantly in the process of eliminating our internal thallium stores just like as with other toxic ions.

The only reported case of 'thallium poisoning' from kale in recent times had been that of Laura Fenmore, who remains anonymous, working in tandem with an alternative health practitioner from California.

Almendrala, A. "Everyone’s Got The Kale Poisoning ‘Study’ All Wrong: But the problem isn’t science — it’s journalism." Huffington Post (2015)​

 

[Travis]

I think you could be right, there is that chance. It’s amazing what people will resort to for financial gain. Also, a lot of people eat kale in raw form and in high volume (as in juicing) and that may have a deleterious effect on thyroid function. I noticed there are some symptoms of thallium toxicity that are in common to the symptoms of low thyroid function. Maybe an unbalanced diet is the bigger culprit behind these people’s symptoms.

Sorry for being a bit hyper-critical, but where I live—in a more rural area—the phrase '(a person) in my area' is usually understood to mean as being 'someone you know.' I had initially thought this had been your own account of an associate and also so radical that it 'would have surely made the news' (and that there ought to be a record of this); but I was wrong on both counts because (1) it actually had made the news and (2) it wasn't your original story (and there is a record of this). I suppose it shouldn't matter too much if Brassica species will preferentially adsorb thallium because this could be seen just as much a criticism of the soil it's grown in as a criticism of the plant itself; this could also necessarily be concomitant with its ability to hyper-accumulate selenium, which it's known for, or that the adsorption of these two ions must always go hand-in-hand. Brassica species can be grown having so much selenomethionine as to significantly reduce colon cancer in rats into which its fed, by inhibiting enzymes of polyamine synthesis, although it would be unlikely to come across broccoli at the grocery having as much.

I had been eating egg whites recently and I feel they make me bipolar—here's why:

This Y-axis is the Fernstrom ratio, which very strongly correlates with brain serotonin synthesis (r ≈ .95), and the X-axis is of course time. The lower trace is one depicting the ingestion of milk protein—whole milk, and not just casein—and the more prominent traces represent graded doses of egg white protein. As you can see: Egg white protein will reliably and powerfully increase the Fernstrom ratio, and from this we can reliably infer that it also powerfully increases brain serotonin synthesis. Although this was a newer study,⁽¹⁾ egg white is notorious for doing this:

'The egg white diet selectively elevated plasma tryptophan, methionine, valine, and isoleucine; peanut meal raised only plasma tyrosine and phenylalanine; and gelatin raised only valine, significantly lowering phenylalanine and tyrosine.' —Fernstrom​

Although I strongly believe that many online commentators are actually sitting in cubicles and working for 'brand protection' agencies, which are themselves clients of food corporations, I do know with near-complete certainty that there are indeed career commentators defending the likes of Monsanto and Merck (and also some also working for government agencies). Most Amazon.com reviews are actually disingenuous and fake, and I've even seen job postings paying for such. I think all real people need to help police the web a bit, because such deception is unethical, and let the other real people know about how online 'public relations' works.

Sometimes I get a bit schizophrenic, and am done with this variable-serotonin egg-white psychology. Say what you will about serotonin, but I think just as much can be said about neurotransmitter stability; it is impossible to a maintain focus for 12 hours with such serotonin spikes, or eating eggs with competitors, and can certainly see why Ray Peat prefers the casein (this is remarkably stable, as are raw vegetables). I've done my experiment and it's time to move on to another—Next week: 30·g gelatin!

[1] Mitchell, S. "Effect of hydrolysed egg protein on brain tryptophan availability." British journal of nutrition (2011)​

 

[Nicole W.]

I had asked Ernie Hubbard about Laura Fenmore, and the best documentation he could come-up with had been these two attached Microsoft Powerpoint™ documents. These files allow one see the extent of his operation and see just how crude it was; he had basically just used hydrochloric acid and a blender in his 'lab' (a.k.a. kitchen) and had sent the liquid fraction to a chemist. The number of kale samples with thallium above the limit of detection was similar to that on the previous page—about one in five—and the levels were never alarmingly-high.

Brassica is routinely fed to livestock. The by-product of pressing CANOLA oil [Canadian Oil; Low (erucic) Acid] are generally fed to cattle; yet this does not 'bioaccumulate' up the foodchain as Hubbard implies. The competing ions should keep much of any small from being absorbed, and we are constantly in the process of eliminating our internal thallium stores just like as with other toxic ions.

The only reported case of 'thallium poisoning' from kale in recent times had been that of Laura Fenmore, who remains anonymous, working in tandem with an alternative health practitioner from California.

Almendrala, A. "Everyone’s Got The Kale Poisoning ‘Study’ All Wrong: But the problem isn’t science — it’s journalism." Huffington Post (2015)​

Hi Travis,
We’re all fundamentally truth-seekers here, so I have to commend you on your effort and your natural persistence to find the truth in all our “burning” questions. That’s what makes you such a generous and valuable contributor here on this forum. Thank you for going the extra mile for the benefit of all of us.

I took a cursory look at the attached files and my impressions are this: This Ernie guy, who ever he really is, noticed something odd when testing a detox product developed by another company. You said previously that you are very suspicious of his financial motives, and he does describe himself as a “holistic entrepreneur” ( whatever that is!) so I think a healthy dose of skepticism is warranted in this case. For this reason, you chose not to give him the benefit of the doubt, but for the sake of argument, I will:

What if....through this product testing he noticed an anomaly that he thought was worth pursuing? He started doing some “low level” (or crude, as you say) testing in his kitchen on his BOAT. Ugh, I can just picture it, and I’m actually giggling right now. Granted, that’s not really how we want scientific research and exploration to go down. But on the other hand, it was a starting point for someone who felt they had an important question. This has happened a lot throughout history, sometimes very important scientific discoveries start with crude or accidental beginnings.
He did enlist other labs to analyze and confirm his findings. The report is well written, it lays out his preliminary findings without claiming anything conclusive, only that further investigation is required. Isn’t that how most scientific inquiries start out? By saying — hey, something’s kind of wonky here, maybe the scientific community should look into this so we can determine the truth. I’m think I’m looking at him more as a whistle blower kind of guy. Someone who sounds the alarm but encourages or leaves it to the broader scientific community to investigate.

Additionally, I’m wondering what could possibly be financially benefit by going to all this trouble? I may be missing something obvious here, but it seems like he is spending a lot of time and energy doing this and for what? Where’s the pay off?

 

[Wagner83]

Sorry for being a bit hyper-critical, but where I live—in a more rural area—the phrase '(a person) in my area' is usually understood to mean as being 'someone you know.' I had initially thought this had been your own account of an associate and also so radical that it 'would have surely made the news' (and that there ought to be a record of this); but I was wrong on both counts because (1) it actually had made the news and (2) it wasn't your original story (and there is a record of this). I suppose it shouldn't matter too much if Brassica species will preferentially adsorb thallium because this could be seen just as much a criticism of the soil it's grown in as a criticism of the plant itself; this could also necessarily be concomitant with its ability to hyper-accumulate selenium, which it's known for, or that the adsorption of these two ions must always go hand-in-hand. Brassica species can be grown having so much selenomethionine as to significantly reduce colon cancer in rats into which its fed, by inhibiting enzymes of polyamine synthesis, although it would be unlikely to come across broccoli at the grocery having as much.

I had been eating egg whites recently and I feel they make me bipolar—here's why:

View attachment 9058

This Y-axis is the Fernstrom ratio, which very strongly correlates with brain serotonin synthesis (r ≈ .95), and the X-axis is of course time. The lower trace is one depicting the ingestion of milk protein—whole milk, and not just casein—and the more prominent traces represent graded doses of egg white protein. As you can see: Egg white protein will reliably and powerfully increase the Fernstrom ratio, and from this we can reliably infer that it also powerfully increases brain serotonin synthesis. Although this was a newer study,⁽¹⁾ egg white is notorious for doing this:

'The egg white diet selectively elevated plasma tryptophan, methionine, valine, and isoleucine; peanut meal raised only plasma tyrosine and phenylalanine; and gelatin raised only valine, significantly lowering phenylalanine and tyrosine.' —Fernstrom​

Although I strongly believe that many online commentators are actually sitting in cubicles and working for 'brand protection' agencies, which are themselves clients of food corporations, I do know with near-complete certainty that there are indeed career commentators defending the likes of Monsanto and Merck (and also some also working for government agencies). Most Amazon.com reviews are actually disingenuous and fake, and I've even seen job postings paying for such. I think all real people need to help police the web a bit, because such deception is unethical, and let the other real people know about how online 'public relations' works.

Sometimes I get a bit schizophrenic, and am done with this variable-serotonin egg-white psychology. Say what you will about serotonin, but I think just as much can be said about neurotransmitter stability; it is impossible to a maintain focus for 12 hours with such serotonin spikes, or eating eggs with competitors, and can certainly see why Ray Peat prefers the casein (this is remarkably stable, as are raw vegetables). I've done my experiment and it's time to move on to another—Next week: 30·g gelatin!

[1] Mitchell, S. "Effect of hydrolysed egg protein on brain tryptophan availability." British journal of nutrition (2011)​

Thanks, the bits on egg whites are much appreciated. A lot of people report bad effects from well-cooked egg whites, myself included. The yolks (the ones that enjoy a journey down your sink), seem to have vastly different effects, and this is true despite the high w-6 content. Besides the fact that they simply contain less proteins, I do wonder if the cholesterol can make up for some of its immediate damage and have benefits of its own when included in decent to large amounts in the diet. Incomprehensive/ble Notes On Choline
Could the fact that gelatin lower phenylalanine and tyrosine be bad news for serotonin and dopamine? Combined with bromelain (to ensure no negative effects from the gelatin on digestion) it can yield a pleasant or unpleasant stress-lowering sedative effect (that we discussed on the Travis corner thread). In my case the only time it was unpleasant was too much gelatin and bromelain at once, and more importantly, bromelain was added to the gelatin before ingesting it. Perhaps it takes some time to unveil its potential, and it may prove to be something particularly beneficial near bed-time. I probably wouldn't try 30 grams at once, but you know about all of this better than I.

PS: It is interesting to note that, in English, I is spelled the same way, everytime, as "one" in Roman numbers. Could it be that the ego of the average English speaker is much larger than that of other languages?

 

[Nicole W.]

Sorry for being a bit hyper-critical, but where I live—in a more rural area—the phrase '(a person) in my area' is usually understood to mean as being 'someone you know.' I had initially thought this had been your own account of an associate and also so radical that it 'would have surely made the news' (and that there ought to be a record of this); but I was wrong on both counts because (1) it actually had made the news and (2) it wasn't your original story (and there is a record of this). I suppose it shouldn't matter too much if Brassica species will preferentially adsorb thallium because this could be seen just as much a criticism of the soil it's grown in as a criticism of the plant itself; this could also necessarily be concomitant with its ability to hyper-accumulate selenium, which it's known for, or that the adsorption of these two ions must always go hand-in-hand. Brassica species can be grown having so much selenomethionine as to significantly reduce colon cancer in rats into which its fed, by inhibiting enzymes of polyamine synthesis, although it would be unlikely to come across broccoli at the grocery having as much.

I had been eating egg whites recently and I feel they make me bipolar—here's why:

View attachment 9058

This Y-axis is the Fernstrom ratio, which very strongly correlates with brain serotonin synthesis (r ≈ .95), and the X-axis is of course time. The lower trace is one depicting the ingestion of milk protein—whole milk, and not just casein—and the more prominent traces represent graded doses of egg white protein. As you can see: Egg white protein will reliably and powerfully increase the Fernstrom ratio, and from this we can reliably infer that it also powerfully increases brain serotonin synthesis. Although this was a newer study,⁽¹⁾ egg white is notorious for doing this:

'The egg white diet selectively elevated plasma tryptophan, methionine, valine, and isoleucine; peanut meal raised only plasma tyrosine and phenylalanine; and gelatin raised only valine, significantly lowering phenylalanine and tyrosine.' —Fernstrom​

Although I strongly believe that many online commentators are actually sitting in cubicles and working for 'brand protection' agencies, which are themselves clients of food corporations, I do know with near-complete certainty that there are indeed career commentators defending the likes of Monsanto and Merck (and also some also working for government agencies). Most Amazon.com reviews are actually disingenuous and fake, and I've even seen job postings paying for such. I think all real people need to help police the web a bit, because such deception is unethical, and let the other real people know about how online 'public relations' works.

Sometimes I get a bit schizophrenic, and am done with this variable-serotonin egg-white psychology. Say what you will about serotonin, but I think just as much can be said about neurotransmitter stability; it is impossible to a maintain focus for 12 hours with such serotonin spikes, or eating eggs with competitors, and can certainly see why Ray Peat prefers the casein (this is remarkably stable, as are raw vegetables). I've done my experiment and it's time to move on to another—Next week: 30·g gelatin!

[1] Mitchell, S. "Effect of hydrolysed egg protein on brain tryptophan availability." British journal of nutrition (2011)​

No worries Travis, life is just a series of experiments.

 

[Peater Piper]

Sometimes I get a bit schizophrenic, and am done with this variable-serotonin egg-white psychology. Say what you will about serotonin, but I think just as much can be said about neurotransmitter stability; it is impossible to a maintain focus for 12 hours with such serotonin spikes, or eating eggs with competitors, and can certainly see why Ray Peat prefers the casein (this is remarkably stable, as are raw vegetables).

Have you noticed problems with eating large servings of fruit without an additional protein source? Very large servings of fruit make me feel spaced out, I attributed it to tryptophan crossing the blood-brain barrier. Fruit doesn't digest well for me though if paired with other foods unless I keep the serving sizes small. I've had better luck with starch, which seems to digest fine regardless of what I pair it with.

 

[Wagner83]

Have you noticed problems with eating large servings of fruit without an additional protein source? Very large servings of fruit make me feel spaced out, I attributed it to tryptophan crossing the blood-brain barrier. Fruit doesn't digest well for me though if paired with other foods unless I keep the serving sizes small. I've had better luck with starch, which seems to digest fine regardless of what I pair it with.

Did you try adding some fat like coconut milk or other fats that do not impair sugar use much?