How Much Sodium Is In The Diet? Is The RDA For Sodium Too High?

[Nicole W.]

Yeah sunflowers are good at taking up lead for instance.

Yep, I heard that too. Romaine is supposed to be a bad one for heavy metals as well, as I recall.
I think this dovetails nicely with the idea of allowing the animals we consume to filter the toxic components of vegetation for us. They consume the vegetation, their filter organs eliminate the toxins while their flesh and milk retain the positive vitamins and minerals. Then we consume the “safer” parts of the animal and enjoy the benefits of the vegetation that we could probably never digest or nutritionally exploit in the first place.

 

[Amazoniac]

chloride by itself is disgusting

An Evolutionary Perspective on Food Review and Human Taste

"Taste-stimuli are typically released when food is chewed, dissolved into saliva and pre-digested by oral enzymes, such as amylase, lipase, and proteases [2]. Humans, and possibly many other omnivores, perceive nutrients and toxins qualitatively as sweet, salty, sour, savory, and bitter tasting [1]. Simple carbohydrates are experienced as sweet, the amino acids glutamate, aspartate and selected ribonucleic acids are experienced as savory (or umami), sodium salts, and salts of a few other cations, are experienced as salty, acids are experienced as sour, and many toxic compounds are experienced as bitter. The set of compounds that elicits bitter taste is by far the largest and most structurally diverse, and, consequently, humans possess about 25 functional bitter taste receptor genes (T2Rs). In addition, a variety of other nutrient taste qualities have been suggested, including specific taste percepts from water, starch, malto-dextrins, calcium, and fatty acids [3]."

"Taste is an especially important sense for omnivorous species given that the potential range of foods, their variation in nutrient content, and the hazards of accidental toxin ingestion increase with the variety and complexity of the feeding strategy. In contrast, species with highly specialized diets, such as the leaf-eating koalas (eating mostly eucalyptus) and giant pandas (eating mostly bamboo), have fewer nutritional decisions to make and face fewer hazards from toxins than do omnivores. Consequently, their gustatory systems appear to have dwindled."

"Although taste receptors in the stomach and intestine do not trigger taste sensations, they can elicit anticipatory metabolic responses. Consequently, ingested macronutrients are monitored throughout the gastrointentinal tract, beginning with the gustatory system, but also in the stomach, and the small and the large intestine. This helps prepare for incoming nutrients and to regulate metabolic responses accordingly."

"desired nutrients at appropriate levels can elicit pleasant tastes and harmful levels of toxins elicit very unpleasant tastes. We tend to tolerate low levels of bitterness in foods more readily as they frequently co-occur with nutrients in plants. Moreover, many low level bitter compounds in plants are beneficial due to medicinal properties."

"Our bodies strive to maintain homeostasis of blood nutrient and metabolite levels. From this perspective, a large meal is an assault on nutritional homeostasis [53]. If our bodies cannot anticipate a large meal, the rise in insulin-dependent macronutrients will be large and an excessive pancreatic release of insulin will be required to return blood sugar and amino acid levels to normal. Both the elevated levels of plasma nutrients and insulin, if repeated frequently, can lead to metabolic syndrome and insulin resistance. If, however, a small amount of insulin is secreted in anticipation of incoming nutrients, labeled pre-absorptive insulin release (PIR) or cephalic phase insulin release, then the system is primed to remove nutrients from the blood immediately upon their arrival. A key factor in anticipating incoming nutrients, particularly sugars, is the taste receptor responses."

"Anticipatory responses to ingested toxins minimize poisoning, illness, and death. Oral toxins trigger responses to prevent them from being ingested or to minimize poisoning, including containment in the upper gastrointestinal tract and vomiting. As most naturally occurring bitter tasting stimuli are toxins at some concentration, the body responds to strong bitter tastes as if toxins are about to be ingested [57]. Psychological and physiological anticipatory responses follow. First, those who are susceptible experience nausea, the feeling of sickness and gastrointestinal malaise. This, like pain, is a psychological response to punish our behavior and to protect us. Second, the normal activity of stomach contraction shifts to a more chaotic pattern that prevents the stomach from normal churning, to contain any ingested toxins in the stomach, and to prepare to vomit [57]. Whether the activation of detoxification enzymes is triggered by strong bitter tastes has not been explored, but it is a reasonable hypothesis."

"Important to this idea of anticipation of poisoning is that responses are restricted to strong bitter tastes, but not weak ones. Normal foraging behavior requires that we ingest weak to moderate bitter tastes in the course of feeding. Indeed, most naturally occurring foods we eat contain toxins [43]. These do not pose a problem for our physiology, as humans can ingest and detoxify small amounts of toxins. But we usually do not tolerate strong bitter tastes. Foods that contain very small amounts of several distinct bitter tasting toxins tend to grow linearly in bitter taste intensity with the number of toxins present [33]. This suggests that we maintain more-or-less accurate accounting of the total toxin load of a food, which is logical given that we must procure nutrients embedded within foods with differing low levels of multiple toxins."

"Sour stimuli are not of great nutritional value, with the exception of vitamin C. This is an important exception, however, as, unlike most mammals, monkeys and apes cannot synthesize vitamin C due to the loss of a functional gluconolactone oxidase gene [63]. The common ancestor of the anthropoids that lost this enzyme must have had sufficiently high ascorbic acid intake from fruits and other plants that the enzyme became dispensable. Presumably, sour taste was necessary as a guide to vitamin C rich fruits. The mixture of acids with sugars also can enable the identification of fruit ripeness via sweet and sour taste combinations. From this perspective, acids were not stimuli which we evolved to respond to alone, but rather we experienced them in the context of fruit sugars. Thus, sweet and sour tastes are perceived as synergistic in fruit flavors [64]. In addition, acids and sour taste are markers of fermentation, which humans around the globe clearly seek and ingest."

"Hydrolyzed protein has a characteristic umami taste carried predominantly by glutamate and ribonucleotides."

"our attraction to amino acids, especially glutamate, and savory taste may be born of a desire for fermented foods and the advantages of the improved nutrition and probiotic bacteria for our species."

"Humans seek out salt in foods. We find the taste of moderate salt concentrations, near isotonicity (150 mM) highly attractive, as do other omnivores [81]. High concentrations of salt, however, are aversive to us, as they challenge the osmotic balance of body fluids. Salt is added to food globally, and humans from many different cultures ingest roughly the same amount of salt daily. The similarity in salt intake cross-culturally suggests that humans consume this amount of salt because of biologically determined reasons [82]. While a carnivorous animal will ingest salt with every meal, a herbivorous animal can easily become sodium depleted [83]. This generates a salt appetite in herbivores, who will then seek out natural ‘salt licks’. An omnivore’s exposure to dietary salt would logically be between that of carnivores and herbivores. Humans, however, lose salt through sweating, which may explain why humans prefer a higher salt intake than other omnivores."

"Taste also plays an important role during human development as it can ensure proper growth and development through acquired nutrients, as well as the avoidance of toxins harmful during development. This is true both of women during pregnancy as well as in the young child. Consequently, pregnancy alters taste responses and feeding patterns in women. Chief among these changes are increased sensitivity to bitter stimuli and feelings of nausea in response to bitter foods [84–86]. One hypothesis claims this is a protective response at a time when major fetal organs are first forming and are highly sensitive to low levels of toxins [84–86]. Since many foods we eat contain low levels of toxins [48], an increase in sensitivity of the brain’s nausea processing regions, such as area postrema, to toxins would make usually innocuous foods potentially nauseating. Maternal vomiting may thus benefit the fetus during this period. In support of this idea, several studies have shown that women who experience nausea during their first trimester experience fewer miscarriages [87–90] and tend to have larger and healthier babies [91–93]. Bitter taste appears linked to this system. At the time when fetal toxin sensitivity is greatest, women’s sensitivity to bitter compounds is greater, perceived bitterness intensity is higher [94], and more foods taste bitter to them relative to before pregnancy [85]. Pregnant women generally find a greater variety of flavors more aversive than do non-pregnant women [84,85]. Finally, there is a relationship between nausea and bitter taste among pregnant women. Women who are nauseous during pregnancy are more sensitive to bitter stimuli [86]."

Ask a pregnant woman to try magnesium chlorid. Hold an umbrella.

 

[Wagner83]

I wonder if this is why bitter herbs are said to stimulate digestion? (and help move the bile? clean the liver?)
Tongkat Ali is extremely bitter, I think Tribulus Terrestris isn't bad either, I always thought that the bitterness and the effects on digestion or liver could be part of the reasons why it has good effects in some people.

 

[Sheila]

Dear NicoleW,
Thank you for bringing the subject of hyperaccumulation of certain minerals in certain plants to the fore. Tara is also well-versed in this subject.

Hyperaccumulation of minerals in certain plants is a quality utilised in soil remediation of toxic sites and uptake is not only dependent on the metal (cation) but the anion with which it is associated (as well as pH and compound quantity etc). Different plants will accumulate different compounds and thus not all plants grown on the same toxic soil will uptake equally. The problem comes of course when these plants are eaten without appreciation of their accumulating qualities, even worse if it is a herb with 'healing qualities' - one may get more than one bargained for! In this case, some protection to the eater is afforded by their (hopefully) already appropriately high (nutrient) minerals levels as cations/anions compete for uptake sites. But in the nutrient depleted, or faster metabolism of young children, the risks can be far higher.

I think this dovetails nicely with the idea of allowing the animals we consume to filter the toxic components of vegetation for us. They consume the vegetation, their filter organs eliminate the toxins while their flesh and milk retain the positive vitamins and minerals. Then we consume the “safer” parts of the animal and enjoy the benefits of the vegetation that we could probably never digest or nutritionally exploit in the first place.

This may be true in some cases, but in the case of radioactive contamination, then all parts of the animal AND its products will likely be affected.
Best to you
Sheila

 

[Nicole W.]

Dear NicoleW,
Thank you for bringing the subject of hyperaccumulation of certain minerals in certain plants to the fore. Tara is also well-versed in this subject.

Hyperaccumulation of minerals in certain plants is a quality utilised in soil remediation of toxic sites and uptake is not only dependent on the metal (cation) but the anion with which it is associated (as well as pH and compound quantity etc). Different plants will accumulate different compounds and thus not all plants grown on the same toxic soil will uptake equally. The problem comes of course when these plants are eaten without appreciation of their accumulating qualities, even worse if it is a herb with 'healing qualities' - one may get more than one bargained for! In this case, some protection to the eater is afforded by their (hopefully) already appropriately high (nutrient) minerals levels as cations/anions compete for uptake sites. But in the nutrient depleted, or faster metabolism of young children, the risks can be far higher.



This may be true in some cases, but in the case of radioactive contamination, then all parts of the animal AND its products will likely be affected.
Best to you
Sheila

Thanks Sheila for explaining how that works! Sometimes it feels like there is nothing safe to eat in our industrialized world. Every food and beverage has it’s dark side, especially water. I’ve concluded that the only sensible thing to do to avoid repeated exposure to the same toxins over and over again AND to optimize valuable vitamins and minerals is to have a wide variety of foods in my diet. I know that is not always recommended here and of course, it depends on the context of the person’s health, but eating the same things everyday for years seems a little dangerous to me. I’m going with the old school admonition of “everything in moderation” except for the really bad stuff like PUFA, Soy, etc,,,

 

[Travis]

No, she lived in one the cleanest, most beautiful part of Northern California ironically: Marin. Now granted, we have several superfund sites here in NoCal but all things taken into consideration, she lives in a pretty “clean” area. Additionally, most of our produce comes from the Central Valley, hours away from where she lives. She sounded like she was pretty granola, I’m sure all her produce came from one of the lovely farmer’s markets we have here. Another thought I had is if she is juicing pounds of kale everyday she had to have been experiencing some goitergenic consequences, don’t you think? One of her symptoms was hair loss for example, so low thyroid function came to mind. However, she was tested and found to have extraordinarily high levels of heavy metals also. Maybe the impaired thyroid prevented her body from detoxifying them? Who knows?
Btw, the heavy metals are absolutely coming from the soil, but for some reason that I’m not really clear on, crucifers have a tendency to superaccumulate (if that’s even a word) heavy metals from where ever they are grown. I don’t want to completely ruin your day here, but um, unfortunately mushrooms are supposed to be major sponges also....for radiation. That’s what we heard here in California when the Fukushima accident occurred. Don’t Eat The Mushrooms... headline news, lol. At the time people here were testing white button mushrooms from the store with those radiation detectors and supposedly the mushrooms grown here were off the charts. I think there’s probably something unfortunate in everything we eat, so my approach is everything in moderation and try not to consume the same foods day after day. Mix it up.

I will let you know that Brassica species are not known to transmutate elements, and thus all cadmium present necessarily would have come from the soil—that which you, by the way, characterize as a 'clean area.'

Now tell me: Why do you consider soil having high amounts of cadmium a 'clean area?'

 

[tara]

I’ve concluded that the only sensible thing to do to avoid repeated exposure to the same toxins over and over again AND to optimize valuable vitamins and minerals is to have a wide variety of foods in my diet. I know that is not always recommended here and of course, it depends on the context of the person’s health, but eating the same things everyday for years seems a little dangerous to me. I’m going with the old school admonition of “everything in moderation” except for the really bad stuff like PUFA, Soy, etc,,,

I think there's a lot to be said for variety, both for positive nutrition and for avoiding overwhelming excesses, including the toxic or challenging stuff.

 

[Nicole W.]

I will let you know that Brassica species are not known to transmutate elements, and thus all cadmium present necessarily would have come from the soil—that which you, by the way, characterize as a 'clean area.'

Now tell me: Why do you consider soil having high amounts of cadmium a 'clean area?'

Hi Travis,
What I meant is that Marin is desirable place to live in so far as there are no obvious hazards there, i.e oil refineries, industrial polluters, military installments. This remark was made in response to your question about whether this woman happened to live near a factory. Marin is a natural, wooded, mountainous area near the SF bay. It’s quite beautiful and has an untouched feeling... Hence, the high cost of living.
But as I said before, it’s still in the Bay Area and we certainly have our share of refineries, Superfund sites, and major industrial polluters. So is there cadmium in the soil? Probably. However, I doubt she ate anything grown in Marin unless it was from her own veggie garden because it’s not an agricultural area. The central part of California is where most of our produce is grown.
Lastly, I’m not sure if you’re confusing my comment with someone else’s but I never mentioned cadmium. It’s supposedly thallium and cesium that bioaccumulate in kale.

 

[Sheila]

Dear NicoleW,

Every food and beverage has it’s dark side, especially water. I’ve concluded that the only sensible thing to do to avoid repeated exposure to the same toxins over and over again AND to optimize valuable vitamins and minerals is to have a wide variety of foods in my diet. I know that is not always recommended here and of course, it depends on the context of the person’s health, but eating the same things everyday for years seems a little dangerous to me. I’m going with the old school admonition of “everything in moderation” except for the really bad stuff like PUFA, Soy, etc,,,

Seems eminently sensible to me.
You also write delightfully may I say.
Best to you
Sheila

 

[Nicole W.]

Dear NicoleW,

Seems eminently sensible to me.
You also write delightfully may I say.
Best to you
Sheila

Thank you, that is very kind.

 

[Travis]

Lastly, I’m not sure if you’re confusing my comment with someone else’s but I never mentioned cadmium. It’s supposedly thallium and cesium that bioaccumulate in kale.

You know that I wasn't confusing your comment with someone else's, but merely wanted to appear snarky-nice while pointing my lapse of memory. But thank you, as thallium is even more rare than cadmium making your story that much more incredulous.

Farmed kale would be expected to be low since they've been growing kale for decades in the same spot; and thallium that would have initially be present would had long sense been depleted. Thallium is in fact routinely tested for, and most with null results:

This is far lower than what you'd consider harmful, and kale can considered just as good as spinach on account of lower average cadmium levels:

But when inside of spinach, this of course would have reduced bioavailability (cadmium oxalate).

This is certainly not enough to 'almost die[d]' from consuming, making me wonder exactly what plot of land your so-called 'friend' had lived on. Did she end-up suing anyone for not telling her she'd been living on a toxic site? perhaps an old waste disposal area? with extra batteries? I must have been really toxic, as growing kale takes-up quite a bit of space making growing anything over ten pounds per month quite labor and space intensive. Too bad for her, such dedicated gardeners don't deserve to be poisoned. Oh well, I think we can all rest assured that this was an isolated event (if not contrived).

Yep, I heard that too. Romaine is supposed to be a bad one for heavy metals as well, as I recall. —Nichole

Your recollection isn't worth much:

 

[Nicole W.]

You know that I wasn't confusing your comment with someone else's, but merely wanted to appear snarky-nice while pointing my lapse of memory. But thank you, as thallium is even more rare than cadmium making your story that much more incredulous.

Farmed kale would be expected to be low since they've been growing kale for decades in the same spot; and thallium that would have initially be present would had long sense been depleted. Thallium is in fact routinely tested for, and most with null results:

View attachment 9050

This is far lower than what you'd consider harmful, and kale can considered just as good as spinach on account of lower average cadmium levels:

View attachment 9049

But when inside of spinach, this of course would have reduced bioavailability (cadmium oxalate).

This is certainly not enough to 'almost die[d]' from consuming, making me wonder exactly what plot of land your so-called 'friend' had lived on. Did she end-up suing anyone for not telling her she'd been living on a toxic site? perhaps an old waste disposal area? with extra batteries? I must have been really toxic, as growing kale takes-up quite a bit of space making growing anything over ten pounds per month quite labor and space intensive. Too bad for her, such dedicated gardeners don't deserve to be poisoned. Oh well, I think we can all rest assured that this was an isolated event (if not contrived).


Your recollection isn't worth much.
View attachment 9051

Woah, Travis. Are you turning this into a personal attack? I really hope not as I have no animosity towards you and that is the last thing I would expect during an exchange between anyone here on this forum. I’ve always perceived RPF as an accepting place where members are allowed to ask sincere questions and offer thoughtful, kind remarks. Just for the record, I am always impressed by your breadth of knowledge, your amazing research skills and your articulate explanations.
I’m opting to look past your insulting comments because, first, I think you’ve misconstrued my intentions by alerting you to the possibility of heavy metal accumulation in kale, and second, I would prefer to believe that you’re just upset due to the suggestion that there may toxins in some of your favorite foods. Foods you thought, and apparently still believe, are completely benign. If that’s the case, I am sorry that I said anything, Really. Please accept my sincere apology.
There was no snark intended when I suggested that maybe you confused my post with another. I was just wondering how the topic of cadmium came up because I know that I didn’t say anything about that toxin.

So, to be clear, I was confused about your comment which led me to believe that you were confused about mine. I’m not a malicious person who seeks to point out lapses of memory in anyone, least of all someone who’s intelligence I respect.

Back to the kale: Wikipedia states that thallium has a high affinity for sulfur so I don’t think it’s an impossibility that kale, being a crucifer, can be contaminated with thallium. This could happen anywhere...And honestly, how would you ever know whether the kale you’re eating was toxic or not? Do you track the provenance of your kale? I know I don’t. I just stuff it a bag and throw it in the shopping cart.
The woman who overconsumed kale (who is not my friend btw— don’t know where you got that idea) became gravely ill. It was determined that it was due to her consumption of contaminated kale. End of story. Obviously, veggies can absorb some toxins in this dirty world of ours and maybe that’s one reason why Ray does not consume a pound of kale everyday or probably ever.
At any rate, I wasn’t trying to bash kale, or you, dude! I was just saying — hey, are you aware or concerned about this phenomenon? I only asked because I wanted to here your thoughts. Because I respect what you have to say.

I’m totally hoping we can get past this and be friends again.

 

[Koveras]

You know that I wasn't confusing your comment with someone else's, but merely wanted to appear snarky-nice while pointing my lapse of memory. But thank you, as thallium is even more rare than cadmium making your story that much more incredulous.

Farmed kale would be expected to be low since they've been growing kale for decades in the same spot; and thallium that would have initially be present would had long sense been depleted. Thallium is in fact routinely tested for, and most with null results:

View attachment 9050

This is far lower than what you'd consider harmful, and kale can considered just as good as spinach on account of lower average cadmium levels:

View attachment 9049

But when inside of spinach, this of course would have reduced bioavailability (cadmium oxalate).

This is certainly not enough to 'almost die[d]' from consuming, making me wonder exactly what plot of land your so-called 'friend' had lived on. Did she end-up suing anyone for not telling her she'd been living on a toxic site? perhaps an old waste disposal area? with extra batteries? I must have been really toxic, as growing kale takes-up quite a bit of space making growing anything over ten pounds per month quite labor and space intensive. Too bad for her, such dedicated gardeners don't deserve to be poisoned. Oh well, I think we can all rest assured that this was an isolated event (if not contrived).


Your recollection isn't worth much:

View attachment 9051

Maybe it stems from this post

The Vegetable Detective

 

[lollipop]

I think there's a lot to be said for variety, both for positive nutrition and for avoiding overwhelming excesses, including the toxic or challenging stuff.

This has been my conclusion over the last year. I feel it has brought a stabilization and balance to my and my husband’s systems.

 

[lollipop]

Dear NicoleW,

Seems eminently sensible to me.
You also write delightfully may I say.
Best to you
Sheila

Like I mentioned to Tara’s post, this strategy does seem reasonable especially if someone is not in a health crisis situation that requires laser focus and efforts.

 

[Nicole W.]

Maybe it stems from this post

The Vegetable Detective

This is an interesting article and a worthwhile read for anyone curious about the contaminants in soil and how that affects the vegetables we consume. Thank you for posting this.

I think it’s pretty surprising that the organic varieties of kale tested had higher levels of contaminants. Certainly not what would expect that’s for sure!

 

[Travis]

Maybe it stems from this post

The Vegetable Detective

Perhaps...

 

[Travis]

I would prefer to believe that you’re just upset due to the suggestion that there may toxins in some of your favorite foods.

Not in the slightest. I am not concerned with the trace amounts of thallium in kale and if this were expressed per unit potassium—which competes with thallium for absorption—it appears even less significant. True that animals generally have less cadmium and thallium in their bodies—there certainly are exceptions—but they also have less competing potassium.

You have to be critical about this stuff because there are thousands of people working for 'brand protection' and 'public relations' corporations online as well speak. On paper, they work in the 'social media' domain but judging by some impossible comments on this website you'd have to assume that they post comments here as well. But honestly, you're comment history gives little reason for suspicion (I had just now looked at that).

The woman who overconsumed kale (who is not my friend btw— don’t know where you got that idea) became gravely ill. It was determined that it was due to her consumption of contaminated kale. End of story.

No, this is the beginning of the story: Who was this person? was this on the news? or how did you hear of this lady? To almost die from food toxicity—not from a chronic disease nor anaphylactically—in the United States is so rare that we need to know more about it.

 

[Nicole W.]

Absolutely not. There's a clear difference between excreting trace amounts of thallium and 'almost dying' from it, something so rare that it could make the news.

The people mentioned in the article felt unwell enough to seek medical attention Travis. That implies to me that their condition was serious. Should they have waited to see a doctor until they were completely bald and their heart arrhythmia became life threatening? Maybe some did and that prompted the formal investigation of what what occurring in their bodies. I just don’t understand how you can persist in this line of argument in light of the apparent facts. If nothing else, the trend seems to indicate that people should exercise caution and not over consume until there is definitive resolution of this issue.

As I said before, the common sense approach of moderate consumption of kale and other crucifers is probably the key to avoiding an adverse result. This sentiment is also echoed in the article.

 

[Travis]

Fish and shellfish generally have cadmium concentrations far in excess of any other food group:

Karavoltsos, S. "Cadmium content in foodstuffs from the Greek market." Food Additives & Contaminants (2002)​