High Dose Mk4 Hairloss

[Arrade]

"Approximately 50% of the WT mice fed the enriched high dose MK4 diet also had areas of hair loss and skin lesions consistent with increased scratching."

Vitamin K does not prevent soft tissue mineralization in a mouse model of pseudoxanthoma elasticum

I've been using 45mg mk4 for about a week and my hairline has definitely receded, the scalp is also more itchy and oily. I can notice a negative sensation after a single 15 mg dose.

I have two theories for this:

1. It actually increases blood flow (removing arterial calcification) and removed hair that was going anyways. Frankly I'm really starting to doubt this theory for hairloss, that losing hair is a sign you'll soon be growing more. I haven't seen a lot of promising data that MK4 by itself helps with soft tissue calcification and blood flow.

2. A,K,D need to be in balance to properly utilize calcium. By taking such a high dose of one specific form of Vitamin K I've actually caused calcification/hypercalcemia. This could also be related to the bump in testosterone.

It would be my suggestion to stay away from MK4 if you're worried about hairloss.
I'm also thinking for heart health, it's best to use mk7.

 

[Broken man]

@Obi-wan please, what do you think?

 

[Arrade]

Even though there is no evidence of vitamin K toxicitiy, I'm wondering if it is inappropriate to take such large doses when the other fat soluble vitamins are not in proportion.
I cannot say that a dose of 2-5 mg mk4 would have a negative effect.

 

[ddjd]

I've been using 45mg mk4 for about a week and my hairline has definitely receded, the scalp is also more itchy and oily. I can notice a negative sensation after a single 15 mg dose.

That just seems like crazy amounts! 5mg daily I think is too much. I think 5mg twice a week is good maintenance dose

 

[Arrade]

That just seems like crazy amounts! 5mg daily I think is too much. I think 5mg twice a week is good maintenance dose

I'm not supplementing anything but LEF and Jarrow mk7. I tried this because all the japanese studies use this dose.
Thanks for the advice

 

[xetawaves]

Man that's a lot of vitamin k lol

 

[Arrade]

Man that's a lot of vitamin k lol

People keep saying that... when it’s the dosage used in all the studies

 

[Broken man]

People keep saying that... when it’s the dosage used in all the studies

Its not high but vit K2 MK4 is oxidant like caffeine or nicotine so if you are full of pufa, you will have side effects. What is your diet?

 

[xetawaves]

Do you mean mcg?

 

[Arrade]

Do you mean mcg?

No all the studies are 45 mg

 

[Arrade]

Its not high but vit K2 MK4 is oxidant like caffeine or nicotine so if you are full of pufa, you will have side effects. What is your diet?

Chicken/steak with vegetables.
Cereal or Klondike cakes with turkey sausage
Any oil I cook with is monounsaturated

 

[Arrade]

Its not high but vit K2 MK4 is oxidant like caffeine or nicotine so if you are full of pufa, you will have side effects. What is your diet?

So what do you mean? Why does the oxidization cause side effects? Is it a purging process?

 

[xetawaves]

Its not high but vit K2 MK4 is oxidant like caffeine or nicotine so if you are full of pufa, you will have side effects. What is your diet?

How are you gonna say 45mg isn't a high dose of k? It absolutely is.

 

[sunraiser]

"Approximately 50% of the WT mice fed the enriched high dose MK4 diet also had areas of hair loss and skin lesions consistent with increased scratching."

Vitamin K does not prevent soft tissue mineralization in a mouse model of pseudoxanthoma elasticum

I've been using 45mg mk4 for about a week and my hairline has definitely receded, the scalp is also more itchy and oily. I can notice a negative sensation after a single 15 mg dose.

I have two theories for this:

1. It actually increases blood flow (removing arterial calcification) and removed hair that was going anyways. Frankly I'm really starting to doubt this theory for hairloss, that losing hair is a sign you'll soon be growing more. I haven't seen a lot of promising data that MK4 by itself helps with soft tissue calcification and blood flow.

2. A,K,D need to be in balance to properly utilize calcium. By taking such a high dose of one specific form of Vitamin K I've actually caused calcification/hypercalcemia. This could also be related to the bump in testosterone.

It would be my suggestion to stay away from MK4 if you're worried about hairloss.
I'm also thinking for heart health, it's best to use mk7.

Option 2.

You’re not only messing with other fat solubles but also calcium, magnesium and other mineral metabolism. It doesn’t mean you have hypercalcemia though. Vit K seems to increase my calcium requirements.

A rule of thumb: anything that goes much beyond a natural physiological dose obtainable from food is going to imbalance something, somewhere.

People on this forum are desperate and will consistently recommend megadosing various different things from one month to the next.

Use your common sense and see if it feels right to you.

Also, aren’t the studies exclusively mk4?

 

[Arrade]

Option 2.

You’re not only messing with other fat solubles but also calcium, magnesium and other mineral metabolism. It doesn’t mean you have hypercalcemia though. Vit K seems to increase my calcium requirements.

A rule of thumb: anything that goes much beyond a natural physiological dose obtainable from food is going to imbalance something, somewhere.

People on this forum are desperate and will consistently recommend megadosing various different things from one month to the next.

Use your common sense and see if it feels right to you.

Also, aren’t the studies exclusively mk4?

Hmm, perhaps it caused an excess need for calcium that still caused me an issue. I agree with what you are saying.
Look below, if you go to the page I posted this on I made a couple other points for mk7

Maybe the japanese did studies on Mk4 and not mk7 because they have very low instances of heart problems: Why Japanese Men Have Far Less Heart Disease – The Mission – Medium
The Japanese are the ones who eat natto, they would'nt need mk7 supplements:
The average intake of Vitamin K2 in Japan is 230 mcg per day. https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jnsv/53/6/53_6_464/_pdf
"Mk-7 from pulses(including fermented soybead foods) were the major contributors to total vitamin K.

The reason people don't see results from mk7 is that the average dose is 90 mcg but 200 is needed:
Only after supplementation with >1 mg/day of vitamin K1 or 200 µg/day of MK-7 extrahepatic Gla-protein carboxylation was near to completeness. Vitamin K: the effect on health beyond coagulation – an overview

Here is a study where mk7 was used to reduce arterial stiffness: Vitamin K2 supplementation and arterial stiffness among renal transplant recipients-a single-arm, single-center clinical trial. - PubMed - NCBI

Here's another one about calcification: "Daily 360 μg of menaquinone-7, given for 4 weeks, effectively reduces dp-ucMGP in this population"
It showed mk7 reversing calcification in 98% of the participants after 4 weeks administration
High Dephosphorylated-Uncarboxylated MGP in Hemodialysis patients: risk factors and response to vitamin K2, A pre-post intervention clinical trial

I would like to see an mk7 vs mk4 experiment, it is obviously needed.
As it stands, I still see mk7 being the better supplement for heart health.

 

[Obi-wan]

@Obi-wan please, what do you think?

Per @haidut your body will take as much Vit K as you give it. I do 10 drops per day of Kuinone(K2 MK4) (15mgs). MK7 is a marketing gimmick per Haidut. 5 on each hip for bone strength since the drugs I take for advanced prostate cancer weakens my bones. As a side effect I have a nice wider jaw and look younger. Also no cavities...Read Weston Price. One of my favorite supplements even though it is expensive. I also take 1 or 2 aspirins per day.

 

[Arrade]

Per @haidut your body will take as much Vit K as you give it. I do 10 drops per day of Kuinone(K2 MK4) (15mgs). MK7 is a marketing gimmick per Haidut. 5 on each hip for bone strength since the drugs I take for advanced prostate cancer weakens my bones. As a side effect I have a nice wider jaw and look younger. Also no cavities...Read Weston Price. One of my favorite supplements even though it is expensive. I also take 1 or 2 aspirins per day.

Just because your body takes it doesn't mean it's optimal or even healthy. Haidut himself said he felt bad on 30 mg mk4. Haidut hasn't given a lot of evidence mk7 is a marketing gimmick, I've seen studies and anecdotes pro Mk7 i.e. someone discussing Linus Pauling's work and saying they reduced blood pressure, etc but only after using mk7 did their arterial calcification score come back lower.
Mk4 is definitely useful for bones and testosterone, that does not mean it's better for heart health than another chain of k2.

 

[Arrade]

Personally I felt my estrogen may have been too low with 45 mg mk4 orally, i would get surges of anger and felt a lack of emotion beyond a range I would consider healthy or normal. In some ways it felt great, but absolutely did my scalp become itchier/oilier and my hairline receded noticeably.

 

[Arrade]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I reiterate that low dose mk4 I have no experience with and cannot say anything negative. 15mg may not be so bad

 

[baccheion]

Vitamin K2 MK-4 stimulates the thyroid which can result in more beta-carotene being converted to active vitamin A. Vitamin K2 MK-4 also helps along the release of vitamin A from hepatic stores.

Hypervitaminosis A - Wikipedia

Vitamin E is said to help with symptoms of excess vitamin A. Also magnesium and vitamin D.