Help Needed: Overcoming Sky-High Stress Hormones W/out Pro-Metabolic Supps

[Arctic Fire]

I'd like to ask your help on behalf of a relative who has deteriorated terribly in the last few months. Any thoughts or suggestions will be much appreciated.

The trouble began after my relative worked up to over 1g/day of caffeine, along with other pro-metabolic supps, including thyroid. He started getting a racing, pounding heartbeat in the evening. A doctor told him to drop the caffeine and thyroid cold turkey, possibly making matters worse.

In the following months, my relative developed additional stress symptoms, from chest pains to insomnia. He gets surges of adrenaline (extreme tension, coldness, etc.) lasting hours. Each night of lost sleep makes the adrenaline worse the next few days. He's gone from active to unable to function.

A big complication is that anything that significantly boosts metabolism -- including caffeine, thyroid, pregnenolone, and aspirin -- tends to intensify his stress. He's now eating a mostly Peaty diet (including fruit juice, gelatin, liver, cheese, shellfish, raw carrot, plenty of salt and sugar, etc.), but likely has nutritional deficiencies, first from the heavy caffeine use, and then from feeling too stressed to eat much (especially protein). Deficiencies might explain the bad response to pro-metabolic supps.

Every day is a struggle for him to eat and sleep enough despite the adrenaline and to control symptoms without many of the Peaty tools we know and love.

I'd welcome any ideas about how to end this ordeal and get him on the path to recovery. Many thanks for your help.

 

[Wagner83]

When you mean plenty of sugar do you mean table sugar? This is not Peaty but perhaps he could try well steamed wacky potatoes with some butter and white jasmine rice with kale broth with some source of proteins. Quite a few members have completely failed when they tried to drop starch and use sucrose/fructose instead, even more so if it comes from juices and sodas or plain white sugar.

 

[Arctic Fire]

When you mean plenty of sugar do you mean table sugar? This is not Peaty but perhaps he could try well steamed wacky potatoes with some butter and white jasmine rice with kale broth with some source of proteins. Quite a few members have completely failed when they tried to drop starch and use sucrose/fructose instead, even more so if it comes from juices and sodas or plain white sugar.

Thanks, Wagner83. Good point about individual responses to starch v. sugar. I was referring to sugar from fruit as well as from juice and table sugar; it's possible he gets more from table sugar than is desirable. It seemed like shifting towards sugar from starch worked OK for him, but maybe worth revisiting.

 

[Andman]

how does your relative react to things like magnesium, theanine, niacinamide, cypro?

 

[sladerunner69]

I experienced something very similar when first taking thyroid and caffeine. I had just come off of the poisonous medication finasteride, so my metabolism was severely disabled, I was constantly and iredeemably depressed/unhappy, had just no appetite, and was unable to have an erection. A single cup of coffee seemed to be okay, for about an hour or so, and then after that I would experience the stress or adrenaline dump. It's an awful combination of being tired and depressed, but also having a racing heart and racing thoughts. If I had a few cups of coffee that day then I would be in for a night of little sleep and maybe a panic attack (I had a few of these at the time). Taking thyroid hormone had similar effects, I could take a nibble or two of t3 through the day, but any more and I would be seeing stars, losing my balance, panic attacks, etc.

I was able to get through the worst of this in a year or so. I stopped taking thyroid, and drank small amounts of coffee. Only espresso in the morning, and maybe one again in the afternoon. I took all of the fat soluble vitamins, as well as aspirin. I had to start small with aspirin because the first day I took 1000mg and I such bad diarrhea the whole night I wanted to die. I stuck to 325mg and within a couple weeks bumped it up to x2 tabs and eventually x3. I ate a mostly liquid diet of high quality, organic milk and fresh squeezed orange juice which I made myself out of crates of oranges I got from the farmer's market. Yes this was the lion's share of my food- OJ & milk, but sometimes I would have Mexican Coke, Liver, Oysters, Shrimp, fruit, potatoes, eggs, cheese, bone broth. I would take gelatin powder a few times a day and a shredded carrot salad each night. The idea was to increase my liver and gut function, because I figured from a few emails other's had with Dr Peat that these areas in particular were severely compromised with me, making it very difficult for my body to utilize caffeine or thyroid effectively.

After a year of this I was able to tolerate coffee a whole lot better, could drink 3 cups a day, as well as taking thyroid here and there. I was feeling more calm and stable and top of things as well. Nowadays, 4 years moving on, I can drink pretty much all the coffee I can afford, usually 5 cups a day, and can even drink it in the evening before bed with no adrenaline dump. I was doing thyroid for a while but no longer find it necessary because my pulse hovers around 85 on average and I don't want it any higher than that. Goodluck to your friend!

 

[walker_in_aus]

Poor relative, it's the pits feeling like that. But it's not forever!

I think peaty wise there is lots of options but yes basically nutrition is a huge one.

But - keep in mind your environment can have as huge an impact! Sunbaking, slow walks on a beach, yoga, breathing exercises can have a fast an profound effect. Also avoiding overstimulation of too much tv, internet, books - I know when I get overstressed I just want to zone out watching something but in the end it makes it worse.

Also, being a person prone to anxiety, I bought an accupressure mat recently and for me when I lie on it for 5 mins I get this amazing relaxing feeling - like your legs feel after one or two glasses of champagne. I didn't believe it would work so well, but my goodness!!! It's like taking a Xanax... :)

 

[Arctic Fire]

Thank you for your replies, @Andman, @sladerunner69, and @walker_in_aus. I somehow managed to miss your posts despite reading this site regularly.

 

[Arctic Fire]

how does your relative react to things like magnesium, theanine, niacinamide, cypro?

Thanks for these ideas, Andman. He upped magnesium recently, and it seems to help a bit. Sleep is still a problem, but cypro has helped. He did not react well to theanine when he tried it a while ago, but it may be worth more experiments. Niacinamide, like aspirin, is still too stimulating for him to take except in very low doses.

 

[Arctic Fire]

I experienced something very similar when first taking thyroid and caffeine. I had just come off of the poisonous medication finasteride, so my metabolism was severely disabled, I was constantly and iredeemably depressed/unhappy, had just no appetite, and was unable to have an erection. A single cup of coffee seemed to be okay, for about an hour or so, and then after that I would experience the stress or adrenaline dump. It's an awful combination of being tired and depressed, but also having a racing heart and racing thoughts. If I had a few cups of coffee that day then I would be in for a night of little sleep and maybe a panic attack (I had a few of these at the time). Taking thyroid hormone had similar effects, I could take a nibble or two of t3 through the day, but any more and I would be seeing stars, losing my balance, panic attacks, etc.

I was able to get through the worst of this in a year or so. I stopped taking thyroid, and drank small amounts of coffee. Only espresso in the morning, and maybe one again in the afternoon. I took all of the fat soluble vitamins, as well as aspirin. I had to start small with aspirin because the first day I took 1000mg and I such bad diarrhea the whole night I wanted to die. I stuck to 325mg and within a couple weeks bumped it up to x2 tabs and eventually x3. I ate a mostly liquid diet of high quality, organic milk and fresh squeezed orange juice which I made myself out of crates of oranges I got from the farmer's market. Yes this was the lion's share of my food- OJ & milk, but sometimes I would have Mexican Coke, Liver, Oysters, Shrimp, fruit, potatoes, eggs, cheese, bone broth. I would take gelatin powder a few times a day and a shredded carrot salad each night. The idea was to increase my liver and gut function, because I figured from a few emails other's had with Dr Peat that these areas in particular were severely compromised with me, making it very difficult for my body to utilize caffeine or thyroid effectively.

After a year of this I was able to tolerate coffee a whole lot better, could drink 3 cups a day, as well as taking thyroid here and there. I was feeling more calm and stable and top of things as well. Nowadays, 4 years moving on, I can drink pretty much all the coffee I can afford, usually 5 cups a day, and can even drink it in the evening before bed with no adrenaline dump. I was doing thyroid for a while but no longer find it necessary because my pulse hovers around 85 on average and I don't want it any higher than that. Goodluck to your friend!

Thank you, SladeRunner. Your story is very encouraging -- much appreciated.

Your strategy of focusing on nutrition and healing the liver and gut makes a lot of sense. For my relative, part of the trouble is that eating protein (even with lots of sugar) tends to boost his adrenaline, so he probably isn't getting enough of the nutrient-dense, protein-rich Peaty foods like liver, or enough protein generally.

 

[Arctic Fire]

Poor relative, it's the pits feeling like that. But it's not forever!

I think peaty wise there is lots of options but yes basically nutrition is a huge one.

But - keep in mind your environment can have as huge an impact! Sunbaking, slow walks on a beach, yoga, breathing exercises can have a fast an profound effect. Also avoiding overstimulation of too much tv, internet, books - I know when I get overstressed I just want to zone out watching something but in the end it makes it worse.

Also, being a person prone to anxiety, I bought an accupressure mat recently and for me when I lie on it for 5 mins I get this amazing relaxing feeling - like your legs feel after one or two glasses of champagne. I didn't believe it would work so well, but my goodness!!! It's like taking a Xanax... :)

Thanks, Walker, for the suggestions and encouragement. I'll look into accupressure mats -- they sound like they can put you in a better place quickly. Sun definitely helps my relative.

This point is spot on: "[Avoid] overstimulation of too much tv, internet, books - I know when I get overstressed I just want to zone out watching something but in the end it makes it worse." My relative spends lots of time at the computer, and being unable to do other stuff makes this problem worse. Will try to get him to cut back.

 

[Arctic Fire]

Recently, my relative had started to develop shortness of breath and fatigue very easily. He's probably making tons of lactic acid. I've started him on low doses of B1 and biotin, and so far, he's responding pretty well.

 

[sladerunner69]

Thank you, SladeRunner. Your story is very encouraging -- much appreciated.

Your strategy of focusing on nutrition and healing the liver and gut makes a lot of sense. For my relative, part of the trouble is that eating protein (even with lots of sugar) tends to boost his adrenaline, so he probably isn't getting enough of the nutrient-dense, protein-rich Peaty foods like liver, or enough protein generally.

I see. How well does he tolerate milk? That is an optimal, highly absorbable form of protein and other nutrients. Albeit many cannot tolerate it properly at first but it is of my opinion that this could be quickly overcome with the proper graduated introduction of dairy.

 

[Arctic Fire]

I see. How well does he tolerate milk? That is an optimal, highly absorbable form of protein and other nutrients. Albeit many cannot tolerate it properly at first but it is of my opinion that this could be quickly overcome with the proper graduated introduction of dairy.

Thanks, man. Not great, I think. He doesn't drink much milk (does eat cheese), but I will pass that recommendation along. Would be great to increase his protein -- he definitely does better with more, but has a hard time eating enough of it. Might be worth seeing how he tolerates pure amino acids, too.

 

[sladerunner69]

Thanks, man. Not great, I think. He doesn't drink much milk (does eat cheese), but I will pass that recommendation along. Would be great to increase his protein -- he definitely does better with more, but has a hard time eating enough of it. Might be worth seeing how he tolerates pure amino acids, too.

Personally I get the vast majority of my protien from lowfat milk. Most dranks I actually have AT LEAST half a gallon. I also get about 30g worth of beef gelatin powder per day. I might also eat some cheese. A couple times a week I will have steak, ground beef, or some other meat like lamb or pork.

By the way I feel fantastic pretty much all the time, keeping my metabolism up has done wonders for my mood and energy levels.

 

[Arctic Fire]

Personally I get the vast majority of my protien from lowfat milk. Most dranks I actually have AT LEAST half a gallon. I also get about 30g worth of beef gelatin powder per day. I might also eat some cheese. A couple times a week I will have steak, ground beef, or some other meat like lamb or pork.

By the way I feel fantastic pretty much all the time, keeping my metabolism up has done wonders for my mood and energy levels.

Yes, among protein sources, low-fat milk is hard to beat for for nutrition and convenience. Great that you were able to come back from adrenaline hell.

 

[stevrd]

I would tell your relative to consider eating carbs with salt, and have hot baths before bed. Nothing seems more immediate in lowering adrenaline/stress response. Also sleeping warm, with possibly pajamas/wool socks, plenty of blankets, possibly a space heater nearby to keep sleeping temperatures up. Getting temperature up is paramount for improving the peripheral nervous system. Getting blood glucose levels up will oppose cortisol levels. These strategies are often more effective than supplements, because they lower the need for them to the point where one may not need any supplements at all. For example, being in a warm environment lowers the need for thyroid. Cold is a stress to the body and increases adrenaline as a compensatory mechanism to warm the body up.

Tell him to eat a balance diet with the majority of calories coming from carbs (to lower cortisol). The most tried and proven calorie scheme for me is 50% carbs and 25% fat, 25% protein. I've experimented with other schemes, but seldom do they work long term. Each macro is important and in combination they are more palatable (maybe not good for weight reduction, but great for stress reduction).

Is his diet mostly liquids? I know some people experience success from this, but for others, it creates a stress response and can increase TSH. This is what happened to me. This is why nearly 95% of my calories come from solid food sources. I get my protein from nonfat greek yogurt, cheese sticks, ground beef, gelatin (in hot chocolate), liver. I do drink milk, but not much. Not only can over consuming liquids cause a stress response, but it can cause the need to urinate at night. I used to wake up to urinate all the time while pursuing copious amounts of milk and orange juice. Each time we need to wake up to urinate, we potentially impair REM cycles/potentially spike cortisol.

Is your relative spending too much time in front of screens before bed? This can affect circadian rhythm, prevent relaxation, and delay the onset of REM sleep. I would promote stopping all screen use 3 hours before bed, and do things like reading, interacting with family, other forms of down time. I know for many this is the hardest thing to do, but it is also one of the number one things people are doing wrong. Tell your relative to create a routine where he wakes up and goes to sleep at the same time every day, allowing at least 8 hours of sleep time.

 

[Arctic Fire]

Thanks very much for your thoughtful post, @stevrd.

You are absolutely right about screen use before bed. My relative tries to avoid the computer late at night but the internet can be tempting to sick people without much energy or mobility. I'll emphasize this point with him.

Increasing fat intake is a tough sell because my relative has already gained a lot of weight in the last few months from immobility, but fat + sugar does tend to lower his adrenaline more than sugar alone. And if he can heal enough to exercise again (even walking or easy body-weight exercises), I'll bet he'd lose any increased weight from higher fat intake. So I'll see if I can persuade him to try a bit more fat.

Warmer clothing and warm baths are also good ideas. He has trouble sleeping if he's too warm at bedtime, but otherwise, a warmer environment sounds like a good way to lower adrenaline.

My relative gets most of his carbs from juice; experiments with more starch have not gone well. I try to make sure he gets plenty of salt to offset the fluid, but not certain it's enough.

Again, thanks -- lots of good suggestions here.

 

[Arctic Fire]

Updates...

My relative recently tried theanine again (I think 300-400 mg/day), and this time found it helpful for mood. Did not seem to do much for his adrenaline.

The adrenaline and shortness of breath are getting worse. B1 and biotin helped a lot for a few weeks, but are not doing enough now.

 

[stevrd]

Thanks very much for your thoughtful post, @stevrd.

You are absolutely right about screen use before bed. My relative tries to avoid the computer late at night but the internet can be tempting to sick people without much energy or mobility. I'll emphasize this point with him.

Increasing fat intake is a tough sell because my relative has already gained a lot of weight in the last few months from immobility, but fat + sugar does tend to lower his adrenaline more than sugar alone. And if he can heal enough to exercise again (even walking or easy body-weight exercises), I'll bet he'd lose any increased weight from higher fat intake. So I'll see if I can persuade him to try a bit more fat.

Warmer clothing and warm baths are also good ideas. He has trouble sleeping if he's too warm at bedtime, but otherwise, a warmer environment sounds like a good way to lower adrenaline.

My relative gets most of his carbs from juice; experiments with more starch have not gone well. I try to make sure he gets plenty of salt to offset the fluid, but not certain it's enough.

Again, thanks -- lots of good suggestions here.

Just my 2c, but poor tolerance to starch often has to do with two things:
(1) poor preparation. Starch should be cooked very well done to break down the polysaccharides as much as possible. Think of it like you are trying to simulate pre-digesting something ahead of time. That is what cooking does. Adding fat, like butter to starch improves it's palatability, digestibility, and often times blood sugar as well. The problem with starch is often that it's digested very quickly and has a high GI, which can be mitigated by adding fat. Also, not drinking liquids while eating can prevent the disruption of stomach acids needed to breakdown solid foods.
(2) hypothyroidism. As the metabolism improves, digestion improves as well. Eating enough calories stimulates the digestive processes, eating too little shuts it down. The trick is finding out how to eat the most amount of calories without gaining weight, and that is a pickle. I have found focusing on eating mostly solid foods provide me with a metabolic advantage over liquid calories, since it stimulates the specific dynamic action (thermic effect of food) more than liquid calories. This is why I mostly prefer to eat cheese/yogurt and less milk. And I prefer to eat my fruits and vegetables as opposed to making smoothies. The digestive processes themselves actually provide a metabolic effect and stimulate thermogenesis, which helps hypothyroidism, lowering the need to take exogenous thyroid.

Eating a low fat diet can certainly help somebody lose fat. Heck, reducing any one macronutrient can do that. But in many studies, it seems that balancing macros is key to successful weight loss without hormonal disruption. In other words, you can eat less calories with balanced macros than with low fat/low carb, and experience less metabolic down-regulation than you would with restricting your macros. This is why, despite the fact that a low fat diet can be so beneficial for weight loss, at a certain point it can work against us. And the overall important thing for weight loss is not only how many pounds you can lose in a few months, but whether or not your diet is something you can stick to long term so that you don't gain all the weight back. And the track record of restrictive diets have poor long-term performance when compared to more moderate diets with balanced macros.

I think the missing link people don't realize is that balance macros just make people feel the best, and that supports athleticism. Having enough carbohydrates and fat in the diet tends to improve energy the most, energy is more stable throughout the day, and it actually tends to increase NEAT (non-exercise-activity-thermogenesis) the most. So the real question shouldn't be how little calories should I be eating to lose weight, it should be "what type of foods and what ratios of macros should I eat so that I have enough energy to exercise without inducing a stress response?" This way I can improve my overall cardiovascular health and athleticism, which then I will reach a healthier body/physique in the long-run, than just being sedentary and restricting calories.

 

[Wagner83]

Good points but I think fresh juice and in particular fresh orange juice can help people deal with their meals, provide some fructose and protective compounds without the potential issues whole fruits can lead to in some individuals.