Facial Width-to-Height (fWHR) Ratio

[Insomnia]

About the tongue to the roof of the mouth thing, I actually heard of people deliberately depriving themselves of vitamin K2 to make their bones "softer" so they could restructure it with correct oral posture.

I've read something else, like quite the opposite, where vitamin k2 makes the bone more subject to change by making it more mallable. This doesn't automatically mean it's weaker, but it changes the bone in some sort of plastic making it more open to change, while still being stronger then bones being vitamin k2 deficient (perhaps they are talking about tensile strength). Perhaps I might be wrong though. I'll see if I can find it back and post it somewhere here.

 

[FredSonoma]

I've read something else, like quite the opposite, where vitamin k2 makes the bone more subject to change by making it more mallable. This doesn't automatically mean it's weaker, but it changes the bone in some sort of plastic making it more open to change, while still being stronger then bones being vitamin k2 deficient (perhaps they are talking about tensile strength). Perhaps I might be wrong though. I'll see if I can find it back and post it somewhere here.

Curious to see what you find / anyone else's opinions on this.

 

[Insomnia]

Curious to see what you find / anyone else's opinions on this.

I am looking so hard for it right now, but I have so many links saved that I simply do not know where to look. I did find something else which perhaps explains what I tried to explain in a much better way. Even though the part I am trying to quote here talks about the fetus and prenatal development, it does somewhat describe what I was trying to say, mainly that early calcification prevents someone from reaching their fullest potential. Having said that, it could very well mean that k2 (even in adults) can make the bone somewhat mallable again:

Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox

 

[TripleOG]

I wouldn't get too wrapped up into Mew ideologies. Yes, his information regarding the negatives of tooth extractions and condensing orthodontics is intriguing... in the context of children. Every bit of proof regarding mewing and facepulling devices involve developing kids or teens going through puberty. In other words, subjects that are going through structural changes regardless. Posters on other forums have expressed symptoms of TMJ dysfunction and sore teeth with facepulling experiments.

Not to mention Mike Mew's father (same ideas/methods) had his license suspended for a whole host of reasons, including:

3. You failed to carry out sufficient treatment planning, including:-

a) failing to make any, or any accurate, diagnosis,

b) failing to take any radiographs,

c) failing to make any Cephalometric analysis,

d) failing to provide a treatment plan, specific to the needs of Patient A .

4. You recommended treatment for Patient A for which there was:-

a) No evidence based diagnosis,

b) No clinical indication.

5. You recommended treatment that was inconsistent with Patient A's presenting condition, namely that she presented with a space between her upper front teeth and yet you recommended treatment for a patient with a crowded dentition.

6. You provided generic information to Patient A's parents describing treatment options for a patient with a crowded dentition when in fact Patient A presented with a spaced dentition.

7. The changes which you claimed would result to the spatial position of the maxilla of Patient A through the proposed methods of orthotropics were in fact the normal growth increments that would be expressed in a girl from 7 to 8 years old without any clinical intervention.

8. You failed to provide an accurate diagnosis of the patient’s treatment needs.

9. You failed to provide accurate information about the treatment options, including the option of no treatment.

10. You failed to provide accurate information about the effects of different treatment options.


12. You provided treatment to Patient A for which there was;-


a) No evidence based diagnosis,

b) No clinical indication.

In or around December 2012, you told Patient A's mother that:-

a) Treatment with ‘train tracks’ would ruin Patient A's face, require long term retention and that without orthotropic treatment the patient would have an "ugly face", or words to that effect,

b) Patient A “would be very ugly” unless her jaw was realigned, or words to that effect

Link to suspension documentation:
Search Result


Hilarious.

If facial aesthetics is your goal you're better off focusing on androgens, vitamins/minerals involved in bone metabolism, and possibly one of the facial exercise routines utilizing manual resistance against facial movements.

 

[RedStaR]

I wouldn't get too wrapped up into Mew ideologies. Yes, his information regarding the negatives of tooth extractions and condensing orthodontics is intriguing... in the context of children. Every bit of proof regarding mewing and facepulling devices involve developing kids or teens going through puberty. In other words, subjects that are going through structural changes regardless. Posters on other forums have expressed symptoms of TMJ dysfunction and sore teeth with facepulling experiments.

Not to mention Mike Mew's father (same ideas/methods) had his license suspended for a whole host of reasons, including:





Link to suspension documentation:
Search Result


Hilarious.

If facial aesthetics is your goal you're better off focusing on androgens, vitamins/minerals involved in bone metabolism, and possibly one of the facial exercise routines utilizing manual resistance against facial movements.

And low bodyfat.

 

[Insomnia]

I wouldn't get too wrapped up into Mew ideologies. Yes, his information regarding the negatives of tooth extractions and condensing orthodontics is intriguing... in the context of children. Every bit of proof regarding mewing and facepulling devices involve developing kids or teens going through puberty. In other words, subjects that are going through structural changes regardless. Posters on other forums have expressed symptoms of TMJ dysfunction and sore teeth with facepulling experiments.

Not to mention Mike Mew's father (same ideas/methods) had his license suspended for a whole host of reasons, including:





Link to suspension documentation:
Search Result


Hilarious.

If facial aesthetics is your goal you're better off focusing on androgens, vitamins/minerals involved in bone metabolism, and possibly one of the facial exercise routines utilizing manual resistance against facial movements.

What androgens specifically would maximize this, and it's mostly the fat soluble vitamins that u are referring to right? Which specific minerals? Could u post a small wrap-up, since I am very curious and also open to experimenting from time to time. Thanks for the reply btw!

 

[Prosper]

Posters on other forums have expressed symptoms of TMJ dysfunction and sore teeth with facepulling experiments.

Yes, I think facepulling misses the point. Proper function of spine & neck & tongue is very much able to the shape of the skull over time in a way that is hard to replicate with external appliances. Having spent the last half a year perfecting my anatomical function & range of motion, it's clear to me that the structure of my skull is undergoing subtle changes at the age of 24, as if my whole skull is expanding outwards. It is SLOW, but it is happening.

Every bit of proof regarding mewing and facepulling devices involve developing kids or teens going through puberty.

Disregarding your subjective definition of "proof", here are a few semi-convincing adult cases of structural improvement I've come across:
Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

 

[TripleOG]

And low bodyfat.

May be the most important.

What androgens specifically would maximize this, and it's mostly the fat soluble vitamins that u are referring to right? Which specific minerals? Could u post a small wrap-up, since I am very curious and also open to experimenting from time to time. Thanks for the reply btw!

T, DHT, ADEK2, Ca, Mg, CO2, thyroid etc... general peaty stuff.

Sorry, idk what wrap-up you're looking for. Its agreed that high androgens (T, DHT) can improve masculine features of the face. You can takes exogenous hormones or improve endogenous productions with diet, lifestyle, supplements, etc.

Yes, I think facepulling misses the point. Proper function of spine & neck & tongue is very much able to the shape of the skull over time in a way that is hard to replicate with external appliances. Having spent the last half a year perfecting my anatomical function & range of motion, it's clear to me that the structure of my skull is undergoing subtle changes at the age of 24, as if my whole skull is expanding outwards. It is SLOW, but it is happening.


Disregarding your subjective definition of "proof", here are a few semi-convincing adult cases of structural improvement I've come across:
Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

The last woman said she had palatal expansion surgery. The other woman lost weight. Everyone else looks 25 and under with subtle, if any, changes that can be attributed to aging. I remember these pics as proof on Lookism and similar forums where they were picked apart as well. All that is missing is the one Asian kid's "proof pics" of mew+facepulling when in reality it was early-teen vs post-puberty pictures lol. Most successful changes to maxilla position I've seen in adults involve palatal expansion surgery and devices.

I'm nearing 30 myself. The prominence in my face looks different now than at 25yo than at 20yo than at 15yo. Whenever I'm muscular, lean, and training explosively, the masculine features in my face become pronounced. The opposite happens when my health worsens. You see younger celebrities go through facial changes often. Chris Brown (american pop artist) had less pronounced cheeks at 20 than he does now at 28. Justin Beiber(american pop artist) is visibly different at 23 compared to 20 as well. I doubt they know or care about this stuff in any capacity.

Can't agree more about postural restoration, though. Extremely important. Glad to hear you're finding success.

 

[DHT]

May be the most important.



T, DHT, ADEK2, Ca, Mg, CO2, thyroid etc... general peaty stuff.

Sorry, idk what wrap-up you're looking for. Its agreed that high androgens (T, DHT) can improve masculine features of the face. You can takes exogenous hormones or improve endogenous productions with diet, lifestyle, supplements, etc.



The last woman said she had palatal expansion surgery. The other woman lost weight. Everyone else looks 25 and under with subtle, if any, changes that can be attributed to aging. I remember these pics as proof on Lookism and similar forums where they were picked apart as well. All that is missing is the one Asian kid's "proof pics" of mew+facepulling when in reality it was early-teen vs post-puberty pictures lol. Most successful changes to maxilla position I've seen in adults involve palatal expansion surgery and devices.

I'm nearing 30 myself. The prominence in my face looks different now than at 25yo than at 20yo than at 15yo. Whenever I'm muscular, lean, and training explosively, the masculine features in my face become pronounced. The opposite happens when my health worsens. You see younger celebrities go through facial changes often. Chris Brown (american pop artist) had less pronounced cheeks at 20 than he does now at 28. Justin Beiber(american pop artist) is visibly different at 23 compared to 20 as well. I doubt they know or care about this stuff in any capacity.

Can't agree more about postural restoration, though. Extremely important. Glad to hear you're finding success.

you forget most important hormone which is HGH this truly enhance bone growth in all acres of the body

 

[smith]

Intersting thread, thanks for the studies.

You guys familiar with craniosacral biodynamics? Skull bone sutures rarely fuse, but some cases it fuses in 40-50s(I think because stress & calcification) The belief is skullbones move in rhythm with breathing. You can find videos on how the movement goes, especially in inhale(in inhale, sacrum rotates back and down causes Flexion of the sphenobasillar joint) follwing happens:

Occipital will push against sphnoid bone, the joint between will move upwards(flexion) and the sphenoid bone will rotate down towards the maxilla.
In inhalation you skull basicly takes a horizontal width, in exhale vertical height.
Inhale is basicly relative high fwhr: flared zygomatics, glabella is deepend relative to frontal sinuses, eyes stick out with light reflection(more hopeful). I think also a faint confident mouth corners turned upside is a result of pulling origins of mouth muscles away, and the muscle tightens due to stretch receptors.
You've seen the tired dead eyes, either it's muscles are tired to open eyelids, or the eyeball as a whole is moved back..

It's the concept of tensegrity. I've tried laying down and breathing slowly, to make sure sacrum is moving, and feeling this movement along the spine up to the occipital. With minimal muscle use, you can "lift" the occiptal and sphenoid joint relative to the zygomatic arches, you will feel tension from your ears to you zygos flaring, and you can concentrate on getting the tension to spread to under the eye(lifting the maxilla in tension), to the sides and above to get the frontal sinuses expanding with every breath in.

After som days you get way better it at, and you find distinct areas along your diaphragm, you haven't used for a while. Whats interesting is I can feel a difference in blood flow in the face, and I can feel a difference in confidence levels and how people react around me.
It wasn't easy to keep the tension in social situations, you have to fight it a bit, and you immediately become more aware of any urge to "submit" or lower your head in any way..
You can find some google books on meditation using craniosacral biodynamics, "breath of life" rings a bell.

Try it out!

Interesting, thanks for this. Have any idea how to go about pushing out sunken eyes?

 

[BigYellowLemon]

I wouldn't get too wrapped up into Mew ideologies. Yes, his information regarding the negatives of tooth extractions and condensing orthodontics is intriguing... in the context of children. Every bit of proof regarding mewing and facepulling devices involve developing kids or teens going through puberty. In other words, subjects that are going through structural changes regardless. Posters on other forums have expressed symptoms of TMJ dysfunction and sore teeth with facepulling experiments.

Not to mention Mike Mew's father (same ideas/methods) had his license suspended for a whole host of reasons, including:





Link to suspension documentation:
Search Result


Hilarious.

If facial aesthetics is your goal you're better off focusing on androgens, vitamins/minerals involved in bone metabolism, and possibly one of the facial exercise routines utilizing manual resistance against facial movements.

The tooth pain is likely due to facepulling gear connected directly to the teeth, when the force should instead be focused solely on the upper palate. The TMJ, well that's probably due to the random weird methods people on those forums have, like wearing a upper/lower jaw mouthguared attached to rope which is then attached to a wall, and then pulling as hard as they can. Or yanking their lower jaws.

I actually think any attempt at directly pulling the jaw/maxilla forward is stupid and likely to lead to TMJ. The main thing to focus on is upward force, if you force the maxilla upwards, it will be forced to go forwards as well by the shape of the skull. And really there's no way to force the maxilla forward without touching the teeth, which is no good.

And anything having to do with pulling or pushing the lower jaw is very likely to lead to TMJ. The lower jaw, besides aligning with upper jaws teeth, should not be manipulated, the real problem lies with the maxilla.

Also, the gum these people chew is very likely to lead to TMJ as well in my opinion. I think that's very likely. The falim gum some of them chewed has the potential to cause TMJ.

And I don't see any real criticisms of the elder Mew, #7 is bull****, and of course Mew would come under fire.

I don't see how androgens would correct the shape/angle of the maxilla, androgens are really besides the point. Androgens may be able to create growth in the thiccness of the bones, the width between the two jaw joints, or the size of the cheekbones, but it seems to be unrelated to the angle of the maxilla. Consider that women have maxilla idential to that of men, but generally lack things like a brow bone, or thick jaw.

We know for a fact it works: Face Pulling : A Mechanical Engineering Challenge

Not to mention the study in monkeys that unequivocally showed that facegear simply works.

 

[Thoushant]

Interesting, thanks for this. Have any idea how to go about pushing out sunken eyes?

Thank you. I have some thoughts on the subject. But I'm unsure on what sunken eyes refers to, do you have an actor who have something similar. Ryan Gosling comes to mind, but maybe you are referring to eyebrows flab covering eyes, or eyelids showing?

 

[schultz]

Interesting paper, though I always find it a bit sad when they don't check DHT levels. I'd also be curious to see them account for overall skull capacity or something considering someone could have a high FWHR merely because they have a very short skull, not because their face is wider than average.

 

[Deleted member 5487]

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[Constatine]

The Face and general bone structure are largely in place after puberty.

Manipulation of Fat and Neck/facial muscles and mainly Androgen Status have a Significant influence on ones face aesthetics.

Take a look at the difference on me.
View attachment 7541

As for all the studies on fWHR, aggression, cheating, anti-social, these are all largely true. Here is my experience

Football Picture age 17 5'10 200lbs Three year varsity middle linebacker, pound for pound best athlete(for 2 years) in a 5a school in a major city. My strength and speed were unmatched, regularly tested for steroids by the school district. Never took them. Note the lean, skin tight face, and overly large neck. Sadly controlling such testosterone/DHT at that age was damn near impossible. Those years I was literally on Auto-Pilot, meaning my hormones controlled my underdeveloped brain and I was a delinquent alcohol and drug abuser, as an out for my aggression/energy. I also had strong Anti-Social personality, Did not care what anyone thought, constantly testing authority/coaches, and had significant influence over my football team and may have even staged a coup of authority over the coach. Younger coach in their twenties would even get aggressive and threaten me, one stating "You lower your shoulder on me again, I will drive you into the dirt" I didn't even lower my shoulder on him in the drill. Sometimes I was isolated on the sideline, and coach would attempt to turn my friends against me, and divide and conquer, A coach even attempted to fight me. Bad times.

Another posted stated that Training explosively really helps the face. This is very true. Explosive training Mainly SPRINTS(under 100 yards) and POWER CLEANS( 4-5 reps) is the quickest way to define and build muscles in face and neck. Change androgenic status, fat placement, water retention.

Picture (2) Age 21 Low carb, High cortisol, b****. Pre peat-8 months ago.i look alot different then this now. You can change your appearence by huge margins.
View attachment 7542

Very cool, thanks for sharing. Its incredible how looks or attractiveness are almost completely dependent on lifestyle (that is including diet).

 

[Prosper]

i look alot different then this now. You can change your appearence by huge margins.

You have discovered that camera lens, distance and angle affect appearance. NO ONE looks good in a photo taken with phone camera 30 cm away from your face. You probably have changed, but nowhere close to the extent your photos claim. Just look at the difference in how much of your ears can be seen in both pics. It's similar to what is going on in this pic:

 

[Deleted member 5487]

You have discovered that camera lens, distance and angle affect appearance. NO ONE looks good in a photo taken with phone camera 30 cm away from your face. You probably have changed, but nowhere close to the extent your photos claim. Just look at the difference in how much of your ears can be seen in both pics. It's similar to what is going on in this pic:

Mabey you are right, I wasn't aware of this. I am also 25lbs lighter in the second photo 20lbs are muscle. I do feel that a large ammount of facial muscle was wasted away on my fasting/lowcarb days.

 

[Constatine]

You have discovered that camera lens, distance and angle affect appearance. NO ONE looks good in a photo taken with phone camera 30 cm away from your face. You probably have changed, but nowhere close to the extent your photos claim. Just look at the difference in how much of your ears can be seen in both pics. It's similar to what is going on in this pic:

There are a lot of people who think they are ugly because of this.

 

[Prosper]

There are a lot of people who think they are ugly because of this.

Perhaps they should look into the mirror instead

 

[smith]

Thank you. I have some thoughts on the subject. But I'm unsure on what sunken eyes refers to, do you have an actor who have something similar. Ryan Gosling comes to mind, but maybe you are referring to eyebrows flab covering eyes, or eyelids showing?

Oh yes, I'm referring to eyes that have become physically deep set or sunken over time, maybe as a result of the connective tissue behind them being destroyed or weakened somehow. Dark circles usually accompany them, leading to a "skully" look. It seems like a lot of adults have them, no one talks about it though, just like no one talks about the loss of subcutaneous fat most people experience after adolescence. I'd love to hear/read your thoughts on it. I'm not sure of any celebrities who might have them off the top of my head but I just did a google search and apparently Kirsten Dunst, Sandra Bullock, Kate Winslet and Halle Berry have them among others.