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Even A Slight Increase In Estrogen Strongly Decreases DHEA Levels

Discussion in 'Scientific Studies' started by haidut, Sep 26, 2017.

  1. haidut

    haidut Member

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    I posted a few studies in the past revealing that in old age (and menopause) the levels of pregnenolone, progesterone and DHEA declines, while that of cortisol and aldosterone stays the same or even increases.
    Pregnenolone, Progesterone And DHEA Drop, Cortisol Rises In Aging

    The decline in those "youth" hormones, as Peat called them, is thought to be one of the main reason for the diseases and frailty associated with aging. However, mainstream medicine claims that the cause of decline in these steroids is unknown despite the evidence that lower thyroid function and higher adiposity are involved. Doctors continue to claim that menopausal women suffer from a deficiency of estrogen while at the same time openly admitting that all older people produce more estrogen than young ones due to the higher percentage of fat tissue. It's just that the estrogen in older people is produced intracrinally (in adipose and other tissue, primarily as estrone) and does not show up on the common blood tests. If doctors were to test levels of estrone sulfate (E1S) in blood they will quickly see that there is no estrogen deficiency in older people. Also, biopsies have been done on breast cancer patients (both breast and lymph node tissues) and the level of estrogen in those tissues is true the roof.
    This new study shows that even a very small increase in estrogen in pre- and post-menopausal women elicits a dramatic decline in DHEA-S levels. So, the higher estrogen sytnhesis and lower thyroid activity are indeed a very likely explanation for the decreased levels of DHEA in older (and sick) people.
    Hey @Such_Saturation, I think you posted something about insulin and DHEA, right? This may be of interest.


    Circulating dehydroepiandrosterone-sulphate decreases even with a slight change in oestradiol. - PubMed - NCBI
    "...Circulating DHEA-S level was significantly decreased at 3 months in all the four quartiles and divided according to Δoestradiol, and ΔDHEA-S did not show significant differences. In conclusion, circulating DHEA-S decreases even with a slight increase in oestradiol level. Impact statement What is already known on this subject: A transient increase in DHEA-S in women during the menopausal transition may be involved in the occurrence of menopausal symptoms and/or unfavourable metabolic changes. Hormone replacement therapy decreases circulating DHEA-S level. However, dose dependency of the change in DHEA-S on oestrogen has not been reported. What the results of this study add: Circulating DHEA-S decreases even with a slight increase in oestradiol level. What the implications are of these findings for clinical practice and/or further research: Adrenal function may respond to a small change in oestrogen."
     
  2. dookie

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    @haidut

    Since fasting seems to cause a decrease in thyroid hormones, do you think that doing the opposite -- eating above appetite -- would it cause an increase in metabolism (thyroid), and a consequent decrease in estrogen, and increase in DHEA? I'm thinking of eating more sugar, protein, salt, calcium, and saturated fats - can it make a mildly hypothyroid case normal?
     
  3. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    That's what the study on hypo and hyperthyroidism showed - higher metabolism resulted in higher DHEA levels and of other androgens and lower levels of estrogen. So, raising metabolism should help balance the steroid levels in favor of the anticatabolic ones.
    Effects Of Thyroid Hormone On Steroid Metabolism
     
  4. dookie

    dookie Member

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    But I am thinking specifically with regards to food intake. If you "force" yourself to eat more food, would it result in higher thyroid/metabolism?
     
  5. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    In the few examples we have seen, yes. Even CNN wrote about that NLF player who overeats to keep metabolism high. Hey @dand , what was his name?
     
  6. dookie

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    So over-eating could lower estrogen? Do you have any idea on what amount of calories to shoot for, what foods are best? I'm assuming it would be best to get most of the calories from carbohydrates?
     
  7. dookie

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  8. paymanz

    paymanz Member

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    What about prolactin?

    some hyperthyroid patients have gynos, what's your thoughts on that?
     
  9. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Too much progesterone would be my guess, but I need to see confirmation that they were hyper first. Typically, doctors will diagnose hyper just by looking at TSH levels and you could easily be still functionally hypo with very TSH if you take too much T4 for example (as it common practice in hypo treatment). So, in these people TSH is very low but rT3 is high and their temps/pulse are low.
     
  10. dookie

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    @haidut

    The study you posted here: Effects Of Thyroid Hormone On Steroid Metabolism
    Shows that estrogen production is increased, and estrogen clearance is decreased, in hyperthyroidism. In fact, that exact article says that estradiol levels were found to be between 2.5 to 15 times greater in hyperthyroidism.

    So how can you claim that:
    Isn't the issue clearly one of too much estrogen from hyperthyroidism?
    Other members have experienced gyno using T3 too
     
  11. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    The study says that the increased levels of estrogen is from increased levels of androgens, which then aromatize into estrogen, and not from increased estrogen synthesis. And the increase in estrogen is only seen in men. Another study found no statistically significant increase in E2.
    "...The increased plasma E2 in hyperthyroidism results in large part from increased peripheral conversion from the androgens (testosterone and androstenedione) (Figure 1)36 rather than from direct glandular secretion. The plasma levels of E2 in female hyperthyroidism tend to be within-the normal range31'35 (Table V)."
    "...Ridgway, Longcope, and Maloof35 found only slight increases in plasma E2 levels in hyperthyroidism. The increases were not statistically significant (4.6 ng.% compared with a normal of 2.9 ng.%)."

    And another study confirms that the increased estrogen is from increased androgen synthesis.
    Conversion of Androgens to Estrogens in Hyperthyroidism * | The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism | Oxford Academic

    I guess I should have said that androgen synthesis is increased and estrogen synthesis is unchanged but the ratio of androgens to estrogens rises in hyperthyroidism.
    Good catch, thanks for pointing it out.
     
  12. sunflower1

    sunflower1 Member

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    I had high estrogen and high DHEA in my recent urine test , low testosterone too
     
  13. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Have you done blood tests? Urine tests are not really reliable as they show mostly how well liver and kidney function to excrete these steroids. You could have high excretion and low serum levels.
     
  14. sunflower1

    sunflower1 Member

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    No haven't done blood, Did one of those new Dutch tests. Also tested DHEA via saliva about 6 months ago and had the same result @haidut
     
  15. dand

    dand Member

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    Sorry, for some reason I’m not getting these alerts from you. It was Russell Wilson.
     
  16. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Great, thanks! Do you know if he is still on that high-calorie diet?
     
  17. dand

    dand Member

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    I’m sure he is. He seemed to be pretty committed to it. Guy is an incredible athlete to begin with.
     
  18. chimdp

    chimdp Member

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    @haidut Your last sentence very much describes me in the sense I believe rT3 is one of the main causes of my hypo symptoms (I have the majority of the hypo symptoms, except weight gain). With my rt3 number ranging from 14-19 ng/dL over 3 tests done in the last year. The rest of my thyroid numbers are "normal", but being in the mid to lower reference range. The problem is thyroid has not worked for me I've tried all of your products as well as a compounded time released t3. All of these gave stress reactions/actually feeling colder, lower energy, hair fall, etc. So for now I've back off of thyroid focusing on diet. In your experience what are the best diet/supplement tools to help combat rt3? I know t3 can be the best but for now that's not an option for me. I assume getting cortisol down will be big part of the suggestion, based on the below? I have Lapodin and CortiNon and will have 11keto DHT soon. Perhaps those three in combination, starting low on dosages? I'm a PFS sufferer so I'd like to include the DHT as part of the mix to see if that helps with mental side effects I've experienced over the past 2 years. Thanks in advance.

    I also have the following cortisol/DHEA results from a test a few weeks ago:
    upload_2018-1-7_15-41-46.png
    upload_2018-1-7_15-43-48.png
     
  19. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    If thyroid gives you a stress reaction, I would take it with niacinamide or something else that lower lipolysis. Thyroid can increase adrenaline sensitivity in hypo people, and elevated FFA prevent thyroid from getting into the cell and doing its work.
     
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